Advice about slightly nippy dog

[sarafi]

My sisters dog seems to be a nipper. He is around five, a small designer mix and a really smart and fun dog--but not a good listener and not a fan of small children. He knows a lot of tricks, doesn't get on the furniture if not invited, doesn't jump up on adults, etc.

But...

We just finished a visit and he has "nipped" two of my children, the three year old completely unprovoked (I watch that dog like a hawk, the dog ran by and my son was standing not moving at all watching TV and the dog ran back to bite at his hand) and my six year old when she tried to grab his treat (she SHOULD know not to do that, but again that is why I watch her also).

He also nipped at another little friend when we had a BBQ, I have no idea what happened there.

Anyway, my sis and I have a lot of back history about dogs and kids (they don't have any yet) and she thinks I am completely ridiculous about my stance of NEVER leaving a dog with a child alone. We spent the last year emailing about this, and I have tried to convey that it isn't her dog, but any dog that I worry about--both about what the dog could do and what the children could do to the dog.

The nipping was not taken seriously by my sis, I think she thinks if her dog is just around enough kids he will settle eventually :-(

Things really came to a head when her dog got into the chicken coop and within maybe two minutes demolished the poor chickens! I have had nightmares for the last few nights about the results of this, and I know that it really shook her and was a demonstration of what I had been saying that ANY dog could be capable of given free reign, the right circumstances and a few spare minutes. So I think now she knows what I have been preventing, but doesn't know what to do about it.

Any ideas on how to gently lead her towards training ideas (low cost as they are out of work) or just general things that childless people may not think about? They do plan on having kids soon, and I worry that the dog may become too much if they don't start now. He is a good dog, but I think they did not take him seriously before they saw the damage he was capable of.

TIA

[pitbullrescuer]

OMG!!! Is she nuts! Is this dog utd on vax's? If my pit nipped her would she be as understanding??????????? No! Any dog that nips is dangerous and out of control. If she won't kennel or put the dog in a room while your kids are visiting then don't go. If the dog has killed chickens it has gone over the line. Next it could be cats!
I have seen many articles on dogs just like this that have killed newborns. The most recent one was a 6 week old that was killed by a Pomeranian!

[Chula]

Originally Posted by pitbullrescuer

If my pit nipped her would she be as understanding???????????

So many people excuse nipping and other bad behavior from small 'designer' dogs. It isn't acceptable for any dog to nip humans. I have a well behaved pit and at training class people shrink in horror from her while their chihuahuas nip at everything that moves.

A responsible owner would crate that dog around children and get it in to training ASAP. Sorry. That is the bottom line. If she won't do that then I would not go to her house.

He is 5 years old. He is settled. This isn't puppy nipping. This is adult dog misbehavior.

[Sailor]

This is an awful attitude to have - the one your sister holds. I have seen SO many owners excuse nipping because their dog is small. It doesn't matter. There is no excuse for that type of behavior. It is a training issue, through and through. Conversely, some dogs will never be good around children, so they should remain in child-less households.

If my GSD nipped someone, I'd have animal control knocking on my door. It drives me CRAZY that a toy dog who nips someone is not treated in the same manner.

A small dog has the potential to also do a lot of damage. Especially when it comes to small children - it's not that hard to reach their faces.

However, I don't know how you can explain this to your sister. I have never been successful in explaining this to owners that have similar attitudes. I have the same stance as you - never leave children and dogs alone. No exceptions. But, I know it's difficult to convince people of this.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by Sailor

This is an awful attitude to have - the one your sister holds. I have seen SO many owners excuse nipping because their dog is small. It doesn't matter. There is no excuse for that type of behavior. It is a training issue, through and through. Conversely, some dogs will never be good around children, so they should remain in child-less households.

If my GSD nipped someone, I'd have animal control knocking on my door. It drives me CRAZY that a toy dog who nips someone is not treated in the same manner.

A small dog has the potential to also do a lot of damage. Especially when it comes to small children - it's not that hard to reach their faces.

However, I don't know how you can explain this to your sister. I have never been successful in explaining this to owners that have similar attitudes. I have the same stance as you - never leave children and dogs alone. No exceptions. But, I know it's difficult to convince people of this.

I HOPE that they do now know that their dog can do a lot of damage, they saw first had what he could do to chickens who at least had a chance of getting away from him. I know she/they are sick about what they saw their dog do to the chickens, and I know that they heard me relate it to what he had been doing with the children he was around.

I guess the question is: what can they do, or can they do anything about this dog to make him safe around children?

The morning before the chicken debacle we had a long discussion about the dog, and I flat out told them that I thought they had done a poor job as dog owners in preparing the dog for children and handling him around children. If this was my dog he would have been on leash and been safely crated if he started acting up, but they just let him roam in a party environment full of small children--not fair for him or the kids IMO.

My sister had been telling me that she wanted to test the dog around children, and that mine would be the "guinea pigs". I explained (repeatedly) that it would not be a good test as she had very unrealistic expectation of her dog, and that since I knew that, I would be hyper vigilant.

I am not really worried about my kids and this dog, for the simple reason that the dog will not EVER be alone with my kiddos for even a split second. I monitored them alone (watching my three and another) all week and now we have two other adults (my parents) who are looking for a reason to ban the dog forever (my dad would prefer to kill it). I am not a fan of the killing the dog plan, which is not really on the table, but that is the extent to which the dog will be watched by people other than his owners.

I guess I am really wondering, how do you know if it is a temperment issue or a training issue? Of course I can point out some training/handling errors, and I am sure he was not socialized properly but at what point to you just know that the problem can't be overcome. They do plan on having children in the near future, but do love the dog dearly.


Thank you for all the comments and any advice, I think if they were ever open to suggestions, now is the time. My father is furious about his chickens, but sort of agreed that if that is what it took to have them take their dog seriously it may end up to be a good thing.

[sarafi]

Originally Posted by pitbullrescuer

OMG!!! Is she nuts! Is this dog utd on vax's? If my pit nipped her would she be as understanding??????????? No! Any dog that nips is dangerous and out of control. If she won't kennel or put the dog in a room while your kids are visiting then don't go. If the dog has killed chickens it has gone over the line. Next it could be cats!
I have seen many articles on dogs just like this that have killed newborns. The most recent one was a 6 week old that was killed by a Pomeranian!

We have had many a conversation along these lines. To be blunt, she just did not believe that her dog would be capable of this, no matter what evidence I gave her.

We started this long saga earlier this year when I was fostering a cat and she was surprised that I was so concerned about leaving it alone with the children. I tried to explain the reasons I am careful about animals and children and all my reasoning fell on deaf ears I was getting a fairly regular stream of UFO sighting emails, bear attacks in the mall emails, etc. which have gratefully now petered out.

[Sailor]

Well, if this dog has been raised in a child free home, and not socialized early on with children and learning appropriate behavior and acts as you described ... chances are high that this dog won't be compatible with children - ever. Some things are really difficult to re-train. This is one of them. We have dogs in rescue that can never go to a home with kids because they were never taught how to interact with them, never around them. Kids make some dogs nervous, and nervous dogs will nip out of fear/anxiety.

Now, there is some hope. I would certainly try to re-train. For this, she'd need to start from scratch. NILIF, exercise, training periods where there are kids around - the whole 9 yards.

But, she's never going to know, for certain, if the training has worked until her kids are born and in that house on a daily basis.

[greenmagick]

Just wanted to point out that killing chickens in no way translates to attacking humans. My dogs are extremely sweet and loving. WE have cats, rats, chickens, and ducks which they are fine with....however, they love killing rabbits.

Now, obviously there are issues already present and this dog does need help. It is both a training and temperment issue IMO and she would probably benefit from a behaviorist.

[Sailor]

Yes, that's true about the chicken thing. My dog ate a kitten once, I'm ashamed to say. But, he has never even glanced badly at a child.