Feeling manipulated by my 3yo!!! Mean mama :(

[bellasmama06]

I feel like I am losing it with my 3yo dd. I try so hard to follow gentle discipline.... it feels right to me. But, when it doesn't seem to work....???? My 3yo has always tested my patience but I've mostly been able to keep my cool and manage to gently bring her and us to where we needed to be. It's always been exhausting but I felt I'd been doing the right things, as best I could (not always of course).

Well, nowadays, she just doesn't seem to listen. And the negotiation game is really getting me livid because essentially I lose every time! I try not to rush her or I try to avoid situations which will cause angst or I try to foresee situations and allow her to have some limited choices, etc etc. Everything seems to be backfiring. My main example is: as it gets close to naptime (and yes, she still needs the nap!), I start to wind her down allowing her to play quietly for a little while, then she can choose a book to read or I can tell her a story, she has a little bit of mimmy (breastmilk), then she needs to sleep. We've been in transition with the mimmy part as I try to wean her off (because I'm preggy-- almost 9 mos now --and when she falls asleep on the boob, sometimes I can't get her off and it hurts and bothers me to no end and makes me angry). This transition was going ok, not great, but she seemed to understand the time limit on nursing because it hurt mommy. Now all of a sudden, she cries and whines to no end when I try to get her off me (when she doesn't get off by request); then I try singing to her or cuddling her on the floor or wherever she wants and she calms down.... then she's on the bed again and insists on another story or a book and I've given in to this AGAIN only to have the scenario repeat itself in some form (i.e., she begs for mimmy again and sometimes I give in for 1 minute and the repeat happens; or I don't give in and she cries hysterically and gets off the bed and wants to play and the repeat again, etc etc). I don't think this is just about mimmy. She is just not listening to me and, after trying so hard to remain calm, be creative and flexible, it makes me seriously angry..... and sometimes I become mean mama. Then I cry alone as soon as I get the chance. I tried to simply be stern but when that doesn't work I again start to become mean mama. I tried time-outs. None of this is working.

Maybe I'm partially hormonal and tired with the pregnancy. I just don't know what I'm doing wrong or if there's something else that's causing her to be acting up. DH recently started to work from home and actually is a big help to me, taking her/playing with her for 10 minutes here and there or even longer if I need to grab something from the grocery or visit the doctor. I didn't notice any change the first few weeks but the last week or so it has been this behavior that is driving me crazy. The only other thing I can think of is that we've been trying to get her to sit down for our meals (another stressor because she's a picky eater) instead of running around during it. And this attempt has made dinnertime stressful as DH gets angry with her for not sitting through her whole meal.

I seriously want to throw my GD books out the window and find the "sleep nazi" equivalent for discipline. But really I don't. I am just at my wits end. Any thoughts???

[_betsy_]

For the nap part, can you set a timer for 5 or 10 minutes or whatever and tell her that when the timer goes off, it's time for her to go to sleep? That way it's not just you telling her it's nap time, but the timer is beeping too. For some reason, a timer seems to be working right now for my big-time negotiating, very verbal, not quite 3 year old.

[LynnS6]

I'm going to sound cruel and heartless, but my solution to these issues is to quit negotiating and quit discussing when you're in the midst of this struggle. Discussing works well at other times, or when things aren't emotionally charge. Every time you discuss why this is a good thing/needed thing, your daughter sees that as an opportunity to continue to bargain. But in reality, it's NOT negotiable, is it? So, I think by explaining and negotiating things that really aren't negotiable, we're sending mixed messages. (I'm a really verbal person (a linguist), so I fall victim to this all the time!)

What I'd do is sit her down in the MORNING, well before nap time and create a naptime routine together. You can start with saying "getting to sleep at naptime is kind of hard these days for both of us. I can tell we're both getting grumpy. So, let's think of how we can make it better for both of us." Come up with a routine for the two of you to do together -- 2 books, nursing for 5 minutes and then maybe a backrub or whatever. Since nursing hurts, I'd set a firm limit on the amount of time you're willing to nurse. Maybe make a picture schedule that you can put up on her wall for her to follow.

Then, when you implement the routine, be prepared for wailing and gnashing of teeth. She's going to take a few days to adjust to it. This is the time when it's crucial to 'hold firm' to your schedule. When she cries for just a little more mimmy or one more book, be very sympathetic. "You'd really like one more book. It's hard to fall asleep." But do NOT negotiate or explain. Do not allow her one more anything from your planned schedule. If you do, you'll reinforce the whining and begging. (Intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement there is. If you give in all the time or never, they know what to expect. If you give in some of the time, they never know what's coming. This is the same kind of reinforcement that gamblers get and why it's so addicting.)

"It's hard. It's naptime now" is the only refrain you want to repeat. If she's anything like my daughter she will stomp, rant, rave, throw books across the room and then collapse in a sobbing heap in your arms. Change is hard on 3 year olds. They love to know what's coming next, they love to be in charge. But for your health and hers, you need a new routine. You need to ride out the week or two that you adjust to the new, firmer you. She needs to learn to deal with these powerful emotions, and to learn that she can survive them and come out OK on the other side.

[Epona]

In the nap situation you described, I just put my foot down. I simply say, "We have to stop nursing now for a little while, because it hurts me." There may be a tantrum and whining, and you'll just have to cope as best as you can, but it's reasonable to start setting boundaries now. I have no doubt that you give a lot for your daughter everyday, so setting a few boundaries now is fine. I can say that, two of my children are 10 and 11, and they "have turned out just fine". They were not damaged for the few boundaries that we decided needed to be firm. We're doing this with the preschooler now. The tantrums and whining are very rough, but it does pass. It's just so hard to be them, everything in their world is changing, they are changing, it's just tough. Let them cry, let them scream, rub their back, wipe their tears, but don't "give in" and don't let them abuse you. They must learn that others deserve respect too. It's a slow process, like saying thank you, and potty-learning, but it all works out.

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I'm going to sound cruel and heartless, but my solution to these issues is to quit negotiating and quit discussing when you're in the midst of this struggle. Discussing works well at other times, or when things aren't emotionally charge. Every time you discuss why this is a good thing/needed thing, your daughter sees that as an opportunity to continue to bargain. But in reality, it's NOT negotiable, is it? So, I think by explaining and negotiating things that really aren't negotiable, we're sending mixed messages. (I'm a really verbal person (a linguist), so I fall victim to this all the time!)

What I'd do is sit her down in the MORNING, well before nap time and create a naptime routine together. You can start with saying "getting to sleep at naptime is kind of hard these days for both of us. I can tell we're both getting grumpy. So, let's think of how we can make it better for both of us." Come up with a routine for the two of you to do together -- 2 books, nursing for 5 minutes and then maybe a backrub or whatever. Since nursing hurts, I'd set a firm limit on the amount of time you're willing to nurse. Maybe make a picture schedule that you can put up on her wall for her to follow.

Then, when you implement the routine, be prepared for wailing and gnashing of teeth. She's going to take a few days to adjust to it. This is the time when it's crucial to 'hold firm' to your schedule. When she cries for just a little more mimmy or one more book, be very sympathetic. "You'd really like one more book. It's hard to fall asleep." But do NOT negotiate or explain. Do not allow her one more anything from your planned schedule. If you do, you'll reinforce the whining and begging. (Intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement there is. If you give in all the time or never, they know what to expect. If you give in some of the time, they never know what's coming. This is the same kind of reinforcement that gamblers get and why it's so addicting.)

"It's hard. It's naptime now" is the only refrain you want to repeat. If she's anything like my daughter she will stomp, rant, rave, throw books across the room and then collapse in a sobbing heap in your arms. Change is hard on 3 year olds. They love to know what's coming next, they love to be in charge. But for your health and hers, you need a new routine. You need to ride out the week or two that you adjust to the new, firmer you. She needs to learn to deal with these powerful emotions, and to learn that she can survive them and come out OK on the other side.

I could not have put this better myself. You need to LEAD her through this. Being pregnant with a toddler is so hard

[destinybound]

bellasmama06, I could have written this post! Well, actually we are not nursing and I have given up on naps but my 3 dd is putting us through the ringer! I have adjusted to no nap and do love the early bedtime now but she maybe is too tired to handle it. But I don't know how I would get her to nap if I tried. She has an older bro who is 6 and has to do everthing he does(so if he is not napping, why should she?)

ANYWAY, sorry to piggyback on your post but the ideas offered just don't seem like they would help us. She doesn't respond to anything. Timeouts, talking it through, losing a toy. AND she is making me crazy. Everything I need her to do is a struggle and she yells and screams whenever. It really makes a lot of days so unpleasent and sometimes I feel like her brother always has to surrender to her flow.

Any more ideas?

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by _betsy_

For the nap part, can you set a timer for 5 or 10 minutes or whatever and tell her that when the timer goes off, it's time for her to go to sleep? That way it's not just you telling her it's nap time, but the timer is beeping too. For some reason, a timer seems to be working right now for my big-time negotiating, very verbal, not quite 3 year old.

This was working for me for a few days but now when the timer goes off she says, "not yet" or "I'm not ready". I now find myself having to redirect or negotiate again regarding the time. Sometimes I can manage this fine but lately I find myself giving in --trying to pick my battles-- but then ultimately getting really irritated that I've "given in" without getting to the final intended result with her (i.e., napping).

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I'm going to sound cruel and heartless, but my solution to these issues is to quit negotiating and quit discussing when you're in the midst of this struggle. Discussing works well at other times, or when things aren't emotionally charge. Every time you discuss why this is a good thing/needed thing, your daughter sees that as an opportunity to continue to bargain. But in reality, it's NOT negotiable, is it? So, I think by explaining and negotiating things that really aren't negotiable, we're sending mixed messages. (I'm a really verbal person (a linguist), so I fall victim to this all the time!)

What I'd do is sit her down in the MORNING, well before nap time and create a naptime routine together. You can start with saying "getting to sleep at naptime is kind of hard these days for both of us. I can tell we're both getting grumpy. So, let's think of how we can make it better for both of us." Come up with a routine for the two of you to do together -- 2 books, nursing for 5 minutes and then maybe a backrub or whatever. Since nursing hurts, I'd set a firm limit on the amount of time you're willing to nurse. Maybe make a picture schedule that you can put up on her wall for her to follow.

Then, when you implement the routine, be prepared for wailing and gnashing of teeth. She's going to take a few days to adjust to it. This is the time when it's crucial to 'hold firm' to your schedule. When she cries for just a little more mimmy or one more book, be very sympathetic. "You'd really like one more book. It's hard to fall asleep." But do NOT negotiate or explain. Do not allow her one more anything from your planned schedule. If you do, you'll reinforce the whining and begging. (Intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful reinforcement there is. If you give in all the time or never, they know what to expect. If you give in some of the time, they never know what's coming. This is the same kind of reinforcement that gamblers get and why it's so addicting.)

"It's hard. It's naptime now" is the only refrain you want to repeat. If she's anything like my daughter she will stomp, rant, rave, throw books across the room and then collapse in a sobbing heap in your arms. Change is hard on 3 year olds. They love to know what's coming next, they love to be in charge. But for your health and hers, you need a new routine. You need to ride out the week or two that you adjust to the new, firmer you. She needs to learn to deal with these powerful emotions, and to learn that she can survive them and come out OK on the other side.

AGREED! You are right-- negotiating non-negotiables is self-defeating....no wonder I'm feeling like such a failure. And it makes sense that that would send a mixed message. I like your ideas, particularly a picture schedule. I will give it a try. Thank you!

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by Epona

In the nap situation you described, I just put my foot down. I simply say, "We have to stop nursing now for a little while, because it hurts me." There may be a tantrum and whining, and you'll just have to cope as best as you can, but it's reasonable to start setting boundaries now. I have no doubt that you give a lot for your daughter everyday, so setting a few boundaries now is fine. I can say that, two of my children are 10 and 11, and they "have turned out just fine". They were not damaged for the few boundaries that we decided needed to be firm. We're doing this with the preschooler now. The tantrums and whining are very rough, but it does pass. It's just so hard to be them, everything in their world is changing, they are changing, it's just tough. Let them cry, let them scream, rub their back, wipe their tears, but don't "give in" and don't let them abuse you. They must learn that others deserve respect too. It's a slow process, like saying thank you, and potty-learning, but it all works out.

Thanks, Epona! I agree with your comments and esp try to remember what their world must be like. I think part of my issue is that I feel bad that perhaps she's feeling the stress of starting preschool (only 2 half days/week), our pressing for potty-training (she can do it but is just refusing to lately), issues surrounding eating better (trying not to make this stressful), and the idea of a new baby coming.

In terms of setting boundaries and not "giving in", perhaps my next question is.... how do I respond during her tantrum? How do I "keep her in line"? For example, if I tell her that she can play quietly in her room if she can't sleep, she might do that for a few minutes but then she comes out of her room wanting to play in another room, turns on the music, etc. If I lead her back to her room, well..... I can't do that bc she won't physically let me take her from the room. If I turn off the music, it becomes a screaming fit and crying and she'll go turn it back on. I've sadly tried physically carrying her back to her room kicking and screaming and, out of frustration (here's me losing it), I sternly tell her that I don't want to see her out of this room until at least one hour has passed (the time she should be napping). OR as I try time-out with her (I sit with her in a lonely spot somewhere), she won't stay..... do I chase after her and make her sit (and how?!). Perhaps some of the continued bad response comes from the fact that I'd lost some of my cool. I don't know. Thanks for your reply and I'd love to hear if anyone has more comments on this part of it.

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by D_McG

I could not have put this better myself. You need to LEAD her through this. Being pregnant with a toddler is so hard

It is . It makes me sad because I so enjoyed my first pregnancy but not this one. I try to remember to send warm thoughts to the little nugget throughout the toddler trials.... Thanks for the hug!

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by destinybound

bellasmama06, I could have written this post! Well, actually we are not nursing and I have given up on naps but my 3 dd is putting us through the ringer! I have adjusted to no nap and do love the early bedtime now but she maybe is too tired to handle it. But I don't know how I would get her to nap if I tried. She has an older bro who is 6 and has to do everthing he does(so if he is not napping, why should she?)

ANYWAY, sorry to piggyback on your post but the ideas offered just don't seem like they would help us. She doesn't respond to anything. Timeouts, talking it through, losing a toy. AND she is making me crazy. Everything I need her to do is a struggle and she yells and screams whenever. It really makes a lot of days so unpleasent and sometimes I feel like her brother always has to surrender to her flow.

Any more ideas?

Well, at least I don't feel so alone. Sorry that you're facing similar issues! How long has this been going on for you? I'm hopeful that this is just a phase.... though meanwhile I do need to figure out how to keep things from getting out of hand. It's making me crazy too!

I hope there are more ideas contributed for both of us!!! I'll post back if one of the earlier suggestions (or others) seem to work for me.

[mamassong]

hugs, mama. This is so hard. I've been there for about the past 6 months, and its getting better now. I know the desperate feeling when I start to feel like 'mean mama'. I know my DD(will be 4 in Dec.) still needs a nap, because around 5:30p, she starts to MELT down. And bedtime is horrible if she doesn't have a nap.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I have any good advice, but I've been following the routine. I warn the kids-10 minutes til nap, then 5 minutes. Then I get down with them and put away what they're doing, with them. They don't always help put away things, but Ifeel like I'm modeling. Then, if I have to, I pick them up to bring them into their room. The important part here, for me, is to plaster a huge smile on my face and tickle and kiss (or rub back or whatever your kids like). They whine and scream and try to get away from me, but I stay HAPPY! (Even when I feel like crying because why won't they just listen to me??)
Then we read a book, sometimes they sit and listen, sometimes they run around like madpeople. Then I place them into their beds, if they won't go in themselves, and cuddle and talk and sing, etc. There are a lot of days when my 3.5 yo will jump out and run around and try to get out of the room. I try to just keep my smile on my face and keep placing her in bed. I let myself stay for about 10 minutes, talking and singing etc., then I tell them in my most positive voice "I love you! See ya when you wake up!". Sometimes they whine for a minute, but they pretty much always settle down and sleep. Or they play and take every book out of the shelves and mess up their room. But at least I got some quiet time, haha.
Anyway, the most important part, for me, is to avoid the 'mean mama' and just keep a smile on and my pleasant voice ( even if it sounds fake some days). I KNOW they need a nap, and mean mama comes out if they AREN'T taking one, so I have to get there somehow. For me, I needed to keep in mind that their whining and crying and throwing things means that they are tired, NOT that they need me to give in and let them stay up for more stories.

I know every situation is different, my experience may not help you, but we are going through the same thing.

[bellasmama06]

Originally Posted by mamassong

hugs, mama. This is so hard. I've been there for about the past 6 months, and its getting better now. I know the desperate feeling when I start to feel like 'mean mama'. I know my DD(will be 4 in Dec.) still needs a nap, because around 5:30p, she starts to MELT down. And bedtime is horrible if she doesn't have a nap.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I have any good advice, but I've been following the routine. I warn the kids-10 minutes til nap, then 5 minutes. Then I get down with them and put away what they're doing, with them. They don't always help put away things, but Ifeel like I'm modeling. Then, if I have to, I pick them up to bring them into their room. The important part here, for me, is to plaster a huge smile on my face and tickle and kiss (or rub back or whatever your kids like). They whine and scream and try to get away from me, but I stay HAPPY! (Even when I feel like crying because why won't they just listen to me??)
Then we read a book, sometimes they sit and listen, sometimes they run around like madpeople. Then I place them into their beds, if they won't go in themselves, and cuddle and talk and sing, etc. There are a lot of days when my 3.5 yo will jump out and run around and try to get out of the room. I try to just keep my smile on my face and keep placing her in bed. I let myself stay for about 10 minutes, talking and singing etc., then I tell them in my most positive voice "I love you! See ya when you wake up!". Sometimes they whine for a minute, but they pretty much always settle down and sleep. Or they play and take every book out of the shelves and mess up their room. But at least I got some quiet time, haha.
Anyway, the most important part, for me, is to avoid the 'mean mama' and just keep a smile on and my pleasant voice ( even if it sounds fake some days). I KNOW they need a nap, and mean mama comes out if they AREN'T taking one, so I have to get there somehow. For me, I needed to keep in mind that their whining and crying and throwing things means that they are tired, NOT that they need me to give in and let them stay up for more stories.

I know every situation is different, my experience may not help you, but we are going through the same thing.

Thanks, Mamassong! I do think it is helpful to try to stay happy myself (that is, not to let dd get to me). I will admit that my patience has really become low this last trimester of pregnancy. That doesn't help. I'm trying to forgive myself for it and, at the same time, manage the situation. Thanks for your words and sharing your experience. I'll have to give this some thought and attention next time she is just not listening and see if I can make something different happen.