question about diseases in USA

[kfillmore]

What about people from other countries bringing disease? I live in Honolulu. we have a lot of visitors here from all over, not to mention immigrants, students etc. I never read about that, even in pro-vax writings.

[carriebft]

I see a lot of talk about certain diseases and importation. Most measles cases last year were tracked to importation (almost all in the USA are). Also the congenital rubella case we have this year was imported. Sometimes they trace Hep A outbreaks to importation. So it's definitely a subject that comes up.

[MyLilPwny]

I don't think that there is anything that can be done to stop the importation of diseases because when the "outbreaks" occur in the U.S., most of the people who develop the disease were vaccinated for it and the vaccine failed them.

[SubliminalDarkness]

I think it's a legitimate concern. We just moved from Washington DC, and there it was something that I was always aware of. Lots of international visitors, and lots of recent immigrants.

[13Sandals]

most cases of measles last year were 'imported'?
goodness, that is ridiculous! there are always asymptomatic spreaders of disease that can't possibly be traced. obviously, 'they' love to reassure everyone that Americans are 'clean' and foreigners are 'dirty'. Of course these dirty diseases come from those dirty foreigners! this thread really irks me.

If you fear diseases and foreigners - better get yourself vaccinated. and don't forget to go and get your adult measles booster. You wouldn't want to be one of those dirties spreading disease. geez.

[carriebft]

Just look at the outbreak in SanDiego-- unvaxed child travels to area with high measles outbreak, developes disease, passes it on in doctor's office, where it is then passed on again-- and then later they trace to another case from the airplane.

It's not about making other countries seem dirty-- I highly doubt anyone sees Switzerland as dirty. It's just the facts of how it happened!

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Just look at the outbreak in SanDiego-- unvaxed child travels to area with high measles outbreak, developes disease, passes it on in doctor's office, where it is then passed on again-- and then later they trace to another case from the airplane.

It's not about making other countries seem dirty-- I highly doubt anyone sees Switzerland as dirty. It's just the facts of how it happened!

Vaccinated children develop and "pass on" diseases too and I would never count what the media says as "facts." Here is a list of vaccine failures among "outbreaks" in the U.S. & the world: http://drtenpenny.com/vac_failures.aspx

A lot of us can't trust the media when it comes to stories like these because the media lies and twists stories all the time, in order to support vaccines and their advertisers (the pharmaceutical companies) who control the media. I've seen reports of that San Diego outbreak that say most of the children who developed measles were actually vaccinated, and that would make sense because of all the other documented cases of vaccine failures that I posted in the link above.

[13Sandals]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Just look at the outbreak in SanDiego-- unvaxed child travels to area with high measles outbreak, developes disease, passes it on in doctor's office, where it is then passed on again-- and then later they trace to another case from the airplane.

It's not about making other countries seem dirty-- I highly doubt anyone sees Switzerland as dirty. It's just the facts of how it happened!

(bolding mine)

those aren't facts, its a theory about how the outbreak could have come about or been perpetuated. there is absolutely no proof at all that the case was 'imported'. They hypothesize that the unvaccinated kid traveled to Switzerland and brought it back, but here's another theory:

18 month old gets vaxed, she breaks out in little red rash, and she passes measles virus onto infant sister who carries disease but is asympmtomatic. Baby is taken along to doctors office with sibling to diagnose 'red rash' after vax, which doc says is just coincidence and not related to shot. they infect several at docs office. Later, they are at the airport to pick up Dad where they pass the virus onto many, including two travelers from Switzerland. One of them is unvaccinated and will now become the scapegoat for the entire 'outbreak' even though it started here, in the US, with a vaccinated kid and her sibling. CDC searches high and low and for months in order to somehow explain disease source is foreign country.

you have to apply some critical thinking here and think of the word 'asymptomatic'..these little vpds are just the tip of the iceberg...but they sure give the media and the CDC something to go NUTS over.

you just can't believe everything you read. critical thinking - good tool!

[carriebft]

There's probably no point in arguing this; I assume you would say the same even with strain match-- D3, 4, 5-- etc-- matched to outbreaks in the area of travel. I don't think it's a very sound theory that 18 month olds are spreading MMR through vaccination shedding.

Tell me, if that is the source of these outbreaks, why do we not have large numbers of unvaccinated infants getting measles? They are not protected and all these people are shedding measles virus...

IMO, the connections of types to those circulating within the areas of travel makes a lot more sense to me than your theory...

And I am quite content with my ability to think critically, which is why I question your implausible and unsupported theory.

[caned & able]

The CDC is now hypothesizing that the swine flu vaccine in 1976 was associated with 50 deaths and 500 cases of Epstein-Barr, but there is no direct link.

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by carriebft

I don't think it's a very sound theory that 18 month olds are spreading MMR through vaccination shedding.

Tell me, if that is the source of these outbreaks, why do we not have large numbers of unvaccinated infants getting measles? They are not protected and all these people are shedding measles virus...

Unvaccinated infants have their natural, strong immune systems to protect them, which is better and more effective than vaccines. That is the reason why many of us here on MDC say that our unvaccinated children are very healthy and rarely sick---their natural immune systems weren't damaged and weakened by vaccines, and therefore their immune systems are strong and do not allow the body to succumb to illness very often and if their bodies do develop illness, it tends to be mild and not last very long.

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

Unvaccinated infants have their natural, strong immune systems to protect them, which is better and more effective than vaccines. That is the reason why many of us here on MDC say that our unvaccinated children are very healthy and rarely sick---their natural immune systems weren't damaged and weakened by vaccines, and therefore their immune systems are strong and do not allow the body to succumb to illness very often and if their bodies do develop illness, it tends to be mild and not last very long.

I was referring to the fact that infants are not vaccinated for measles. So why don't we have huge measles outbreaks in the 98% of vaccinated infants in this country (who have both a "damaged immune system" according to you AND have not yet had the measles vaccine, as it is not given until at least 12 months). If the MMR is the reason for most measles outbreaks in the USA, why aren't there more cases in these infants? tens of thousands of people shedding MMR, and only 100 cases of measles (or less) every year? and most NOT in infants?

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

Vaccinated children develop and "pass on" diseases too and I would never count what the media says as "facts." Here is a list of vaccine failures among "outbreaks" in the U.S. & the world: http://drtenpenny.com/vac_failures.aspx

A lot of us can't trust the media when it comes to stories like these because the media lies and twists stories all the time, in order to support vaccines and their advertisers (the pharmaceutical companies) who control the media. I've seen reports of that San Diego outbreak that say most of the children who developed measles were actually vaccinated, and that would make sense because of all the other documented cases of vaccine failures that I posted in the link above.

I thought you didn't believe in germ theory? How could a vaccinated child "pass on" a disease when the disease isn't caused by a virus but rather an imbalance in the person's body, such as altered pH?

gr8blessings

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

I thought you didn't believe in germ theory? How could a vaccinated child "pass on" a disease when the disease isn't caused by a virus but rather an imbalance in the person's body, such as altered pH?

gr8blessings

Not believing in the Germ Theory has nothing to do with the above statement, and the above statement is partially incorrect anyway.

Correcting the bolded part of your statement: Microorganisms are not the only causal factor of disease. The body's environment along with the person's lifestyle combined with microorganisms will determine whether or not the person will develop disease. The microorganisms may be present in anyone, and therefore the microorganisms are passed on to anyone who has contact with them. The person's state of health at the time of contact will determine whether or not the person's body will succumb to disease when the microorganisms are present.

[MyLilPwny]

Originally Posted by carriebft

I was referring to the fact that infants are not vaccinated for measles. So why don't we have huge measles outbreaks in the 98% of vaccinated infants in this country (who have both a "damaged immune system" according to you AND have not yet had the measles vaccine, as it is not given until at least 12 months). If the MMR is the reason for most measles outbreaks in the USA, why aren't there more cases in these infants? tens of thousands of people shedding MMR, and only 100 cases of measles (or less) every year? and most NOT in infants?

I don't recall saying that the "MMR vaccine is the reason for most measles outbreaks in the USA"---where did you get that from?

When the MMR vaccine causes measles in the vaccinated person or others, it is an "atypical" manmade form of measles from a half-killed virus, which never existed in nature. This "atypical" manmade measles virus in the MMR is what you're referring to when you say that it can shed from the MMR vaccine and expose others to it. Since the virus is man-made and half-killed, it is not going to behave the same way as a normal virus would, meaning it wouldn't be "passed on" as the natural measles virus would. Its behavior is unpredictable; capable of causing full-blown atypical measles, but probably not in most cases since its an unnatural, half-killed virus.

[carriebft]

When you quoted me the first time, my post was in reference to 13sandals, who claimed that the measles outbreaks in the USA were probably more likely caused by the shedding of the MMR vaccine.

[amnesiac]

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[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by ThereseReich

Not believing in the Germ Theory has nothing to do with the above statement, and the above statement is partially incorrect anyway.

Correcting the bolded part of your statement: Microorganisms are not the only causal factor of disease. The body's environment along with the person's lifestyle combined with microorganisms will determine whether or not the person will develop disease. The microorganisms may be present in anyone, and therefore the microorganisms are passed on to anyone who has contact with them. The person's state of health at the time of contact will determine whether or not the person's body will succumb to disease when the microorganisms are present.

OK, thanks for correcting me. What you have just stated is our current understanding of host-pathogen relationship and is based on germ theory. I would also add that whether someone gets the disease or not also depends on the virulence of the microorganism and dosage in addition to the state of their host defenses. A very virulent organism will cause disease in someone who was previously healthy with a fully intact, functional immune system. Exposure to an overwhelming number of organisms can also overwhelm a fully intact, functional immune system as well.

Attenuated organisms do not cause disease because they lack the virulence to do so. The fact that this is not natural is a good thing. The immune system is thus able to respond and produce a normal immune response and the production of memory cells so that the immune system is bigger, better, faster when/if the person encounters the wild type strain without suffering from the disease to gain that immunity. Measles virus has an attack rate of 95% in immunologically susceptible people which means if you exposed a 100 people to measles virus that have never encountered it before, you could anticipate 95 of them getting sick. The virulence of wild measle virus wins against a healthy, intact immune system the vast majority of the time. Compare this to vaccinated individuals, who have a bigger, better, faster immune response to measles virus, and only 1/100 would get sick (based on 99% vaccine efficiency of the vaccine as per CDC). Of course, the vaccine has risks and the chance of encountering the wild virus in the US is pretty slim these days because of herd immunity. Europe, on the other hand, is a completely different story and lots of kids are getting sick and a few have even died.

As for vaccinated individuals passing on the wild strain...not likely since their immune system prevents the virus from replicating. Without replicating, there is nothing to pass on. A person sick with measles, on the other hand, is producing millions and millions of virus in every droplet of snot and will pass on the virus to 95% of the people exposed.

gr8blessings

[Sileree]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

Compare this to vaccinated individuals, who have a bigger, better, faster immune response to measles virus, and only 1/100 would get sick (based on 99% vaccine efficiency of the vaccine as per CDC).

Efficacy/production of antibodies does not equal vaccine effectiveness. They are different.

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Sileree

Efficacy/production of antibodies does not equal vaccine effectiveness. They are different.

The efficiency estimate comes from epidemiology studies of outbreaks comparing incidence rates after exposure, not the rate of seroconversion. Efficiency in this context is how well the vaccine protected vaccinated individuals from the disease compared to those that weren't vaccinated or undervaccinated or vaccinated at different times.

gr8blessings