When did your child finally graduate? I have a very unmotivated kid, and I am frustrated.

[kcparker]

So, we have EC'ed since birth with DS. He is 25 1/2 months old, still won't take himself to the potty or tell us reliably when he needs to go, DH still prefers diapering him to undies (which, yeah, he just pees in them, so I understand why). I am super-discouraged verging into getting pretty angry at him when he poops for the Xth time right next to the friggin' potty because he can't be bothered to move over two feet and sit down before he poops or pees on the floor. This is seriously how it affects me at this juncture (and I KNOW, I KNOW, the reaction is MY prob., not his). I had SO thought we'd be done by now, I had thought we'd have been done half a year ago based on the reading I did and the amount of work we have put into this enterprise...

If anybody has ANY tricks for getting him over whatever hump he's stuck behind, I'd be most grateful. We have tried putting him in undies - he just pees in them and doesn't seem to care about staying dry, responsibility for his own pottying (huge messy failure) and clean-up of messes/putting dirty laundry in the diaper bag, chocolate chips and Panda licorice and stickers as rewards, which he's happy to eat/stick on his shirt, but isn't enough to motivate him to plan ahead and go in the potty instead of on the floor, lots of enthusiasm. I am at my wit's end and seriously just want to scream and beat his butt (I would NEVER do this, but I have dreams about him pooping on the floor and me whaling on him for it, that's how frustrated I am).

[zoebird]

maybe you need a potty break?

seriously, back yourself off, let him be diapered for a bit so you're not cleaning stuff off the floor all the time (though honestly, i prefer cleaning it up off the floor than off the bottom, but ni do have laminate floors).

maybe you need to re-evaluate your priorities with this?

was your primary reason for ECing so that he would be trained/learned before a certain age? if so, then re-evaluate. there are other reasons for doing it, even though it is a bit more effort.

we do it because of the sovereignty. right now, hawk is on a bit of a pause. we catch about 50-50 (three more teeth coming in, he's just over 1). anyway, i leave him undiapered and i ask if he needs to go. he uses nods (yes and no), and sometimes he says 'no' and then squats right there to go (well, moves over a bit from where he is playing, and then steps back to playing). i think he doesn't want to go "to" the potty, since it's in the bathroom. other times, he walks himself to the potty and takes his grand time in there (i admit, there is that sprayer bottle of water that is terribly fun in there).

but, the real issue isn't about misses or catches or whether or not he's "trained" by a certain age, but that he understands that we value and honor his soveriegnty, his right to cleanliness, timeliness, and his signals being heard and understood.

even if now one of those signals is a "no" when it is clearly a "yes i need to go" situation. it's ok, you know?

by the time he's 19 he won't need you to do this.

[kcparker]

Yes, I totally need a potty break, but that's not going to stop him from having needs. Mamas don't get breaks from meeting their children's needs. We go bare-butt at home because it's easier for him to sit on the potty quickly/independently, and it's easier to clean a miss up (we have hardwood) than do a whole pants change, and it feels less aggravating to me if it's a puddle than if it's in his pants.

I started initially because of A) and having friends with kids who are 4-5 years old who are still pooping in their pants, B) thinking he'd be diapered less time and more in control of his own cleanliness, C) the connection with the child (and I am pretty psychic about the pottying at this point), D) the hygiene issue. I think it is really gross to let kids poop their pants for years on end, it isn't an AP way of dealing with their toileting needs any more than CIO is a way of helping a baby go to sleep. I cannot imagine doing a diaper-and-forget-it. The most break I can give myself is to let him run around outside with no pants on.

I guess my beef is that DS shows no interest in either being dry or being autonomous. He's a very laid-back, adaptable, go-with-the-flow (unfortunately, literally) kid who doesn't have strong opinions about the clothes he wears, what foods we serve (or if he eats or not), what books we read, etc. I think it's just part of his personality that he is cool with having his parents make a lot of these decisions for him and directing him - he's not willful or stubborn or a high-flight risk if we're at the park - just not the kind of kid who wants to assert his independence. I realize that he's still very attached to me and DH and that maybe it's just not in his nature to strike out on his own, but I still NEVER thought it would take this long with this method of pottying from birth - we did the cue sound, the sign language, made it fun, watched for his signals, tried our best to meet his pottying needs - so much effort, and it feels like it's not bearing fruit.

He can have the potty literally FOUR INCHES away from his backside, and he won't sit himself on it. He will pee where he is - no stepping away if he's engrossed in playing or doing a puzzle or drawing. We have a step-stool and potty seat reducer for the Big Toilet, two BBLPs that follow him around the house/porch/yard...

I would be happy to honor his sovereignty and right to cleanliness, I would sing from the rooftops about how independent and clean he is, but HE's not honoring or placing much of a premium on these things.

The idea that he won't still be needing me to wipe his butt for him when he's in college...well, sometimes I have my doubts about that part of it (metaphorical, if not literal) based on his laid-back attitude now. Sigh.

[emmaegbert]

Originally Posted by kcparker

YeI cannot imagine doing a diaper-and-forget-it. The most break I can give myself is to let him run around outside with no pants on.

I don't think these are your only choices... diapering doesn't have to be "diaper and forget it". You can diaper and still communicate about what is going on, change as soon as he is wet/dirty, still offer the potty, etc. He is old enough to be involved in diapering- helping get the clean diapers, dumping out the solids, putting his diaper in the pail, etc.

Is he verbal? Can you talk to him about it? Maybe he just doesn't want to take responsibility for this yet? Maybe its just not something he cares about right now? In that case diapering doesn't have to be a failure, maybe that would really be responding to his needs of the moment.

This sounds like its frustrating for you, good luck working through it.

My son had a friend who sounds a lot like this. He honestly didn't seem to care/notice if he was wet. His mom eventually just went back to diapering full-time (using the potty when he asked to and at set times of the day). He was still out of daytime diapers by the time he was 3.

[kcparker]

Originally Posted by emmaegbert

I don't think these are your only choices... diapering doesn't have to be "diaper and forget it". You can diaper and still communicate about what is going on, change as soon as he is wet/dirty, still offer the potty, etc. He is old enough to be involved in diapering- helping get the clean diapers, dumping out the solids, putting his diaper in the pail, etc.

We do all of this - constant communication. He will take his potty to the big toilet to dump it. If he pees his pants, he will put them in the laundry. We are working on pulling pants up/down. He helps mop up puddles. We do remind him once an hour or so that it's been awhile, why not try sitting on the potty, asking if he wants to use the big toilet or a little potty. He picks where he wants to go, goes and sits, often pees. He's not defiant or resistant at all - a really sweet-natured, easy-going kid. If I ask him before we go out if he wants to wear diaper or underpants, he will pick diaper about 70% of the time, but sometimes picks undies too. I anticipate that if we go to a playground, he WILL pee his pants because he gets so involved in playing, so I don't get bent out of shape about that.

He is pretty verbal, even to the point that he has said, "Sorry," before when he has pooped on the floor and I was short with him and basically said, "Come on, the potty was RIGHT THERE, buddy. Why didn't you use it? Poop doesn't go on the floor. We've been over this a million times." That broke my heart and made me feel like the most terrible mommy in the world and like I totally don't deserve to have this sweet little boy in my house. But the ogre in me thinks, "I don't want him to say sorry, I just want him to poop in the potty...", which is MY problem, not his.

Maybe he just doesn't want to take responsibility for this yet? Maybe its just not something he cares about right now? In that case diapering doesn't have to be a failure, maybe that would really be responding to his needs of the moment.

Yeah, I think he's still cool with us calling the shots on this, honestly. I think it's partly his temperament - the flipside of being mellow and easy-going and liking to have me and DH be very close and connected with him. Maybe a more independent, "I can do it myself, my way" kind of child would be done by now, and I'd be tearing hair out because that kid was bolting in the grocery store parking lot or throwing fits about having to put on shoes before leaving the house...

[rissierae]

So what is your definition of "Graduate" here? Do you mean potty independence- they know they have to go, and they can take themselves to the potty. Or are you taking about being diaper free 100% of the time, but the caregiver still offers the potty opportunities and looks for baby's signals?

[kcparker]

Slap me around and call me Sally...

Graduate would be consisently and reliably either takes self to potty or asks for assistance if needed. Graduate means that mama no longer has to watch like a hawk to guard against a squatting, pantless child leaving a deposit on the floor. Reminders are okay.

But just in my moment of deepest despair...DS had a totally dry, no-miss day yesterday. DH told me DS had been telling him when he needed to pee, and sure enough, he told me in the evening when he needed to pee, and later that he needed to poop. So, maybe this is an anomaly, maybe we turned some kind of corner, but once again, all my belly-aching and woe-is-me has been proven to be in error. I almost feel like it's DS's way of saying, "Just trust me, mama."

[pixiepunk]

i'm not sure how i missed this post before...

i think that honestly, 25 1/2 months is quite a normal age to still need reminding. I'm now EC'ing my 3rd, and my first two were very different in terms of when and how they took control of their pottying. my first (a girl, who's now 6) was great at telling me and was what i considered to be a graduate at home right around her 2nd birthday. and for months before that she was probably 95% there. but it was about 3 or 4 months after 'graduation mark' at home, when i was confident about it out of the house, and when she was a grad at night. But when she hit that mark, she literally made an announcement to me that she was not a baby and she did not pee in her pants (she said this because she had a new baby brother who she often saw getting changed, i didn't really potty him much at that point, too overwhelmed with new mom stuff and tandem nursing). and that was it. she declared herself a grad, and she never missed again. she was, i think, 27 months old then.

DS (who is now 4) was totally different. in some ways he was easier to EC - his bladder was like clock work. but i think maybe because i relied so much on timing, i rarely waited for him to communicate a need to go, because i knew he needed to so i just took him. for the most part this meant he was dry the vast majority of the time by the time he was about 15 months, and we only missed if i wasn't paying attention to the clock. with him, it was a much more gradual process to independence. slowly he told me more, i offered less. then he'd tell me less, i'd offer more. it was a dance. between a combo of him telling me and me offering, i felt he was a 'grad' by 22 months, simply because he was dry so much of the time, and misses were very infrequent. but honestly, it was at least 6 months after that before i felt like i could stop offering all the time, and during that time, whenever i did stop offering he would often have a string of misses. i think that period between 22 months and when he was really a grad at more like 30 months was particularly challenging also because i was pregnant. when my milk dried up, the misses increased. i felt like he was telling me he needed more of me than what i had been giving. and being pregnant and hormonal made it all seem a lot more frustrating than it probably would've otherwise. but it all worked out, on his time-table, not mine, and he took control when he was ready to.

so just from my own experience, it sounds like you are not at all out of the normal grad range. he sounds like he is in a similar place to where my DS was at that same age. i can understand the stress, especially since you're pg. but he is probably feeling some of that stress too, and stress of his own due to the pregnancy. i'm sure he senses that things are changing, and that can be an unsettling feeling to a little person. it can be a hard transition. at least, it was for my older two (and me, for that matter!).

here's a big - hang in there mama!!!

[puddle]

I had to chuckle a little bit when I read your posts. My DD is 27 months old. She is VERY opinionated. Her stubborn personality has not made her potty independent sooner, and it has not really been an easier journey. (Try dealing with an overtired 2 year old at 2am in full-blown tantrum mode because she is insisting on putting her own diaper on BY SELF even though she lacks the skills necessary to do so. Try doing this every night for a week. I dreaded taking her to potty and wanted to beg her to pee in her diaper instead so I could change her in her sleep and avoid the inevitable screaming.) I really thought DD would love the idea of underwear since she could put it on by herself, but she absolutely hates it and wants nothing to do with it. I get her frustration though. When she's naked she can take herself to the potty, when she's in a diaper it's okay if she misses, but with underwear she HAS to go potty but she needs help to do it and that drives her batty.

I really thought we would be done a long time ago too, but every child is different. If they aren't ready then they aren't ready, and pushing them won't really make them comfortable with it faster. It's like learning to read. They can know all the letters and all the sounds, but that last little jump to decoding words can happen overnight or can take years. When I stopped trying to push and just let go, things got so much less stressful. This is the kid that I've got, and this is where she is in her journey. We tend to fixate on schedules and milestones, but that just doesn't really matter to a toddler. My DD isn't just being lazy or difficult--she's just focusing her mind on learning other skills that are more important to her right now. So is your DS. They'll both get there.

[emmaegbert]

well, I only did "ec lite", not knowing anything about EC, w/ ds but he was out of diapers and not really having many accidents by about 22 mos. I still gave him lots of reminders though. He's almost 5 and still wets at night at least 1-2x a week or so. He's very physical, very independent (about some things) and the reason we did the "EC" that we did was b/c he started complaining about being wet or dirty at about 15mos (before that we did daily nakey-bum time. But like I said, I really didn't know about EC, just did what seemed right at the time).

AND, yes, he was the kid who shoved and bit and yelled and ran away at the playground. He took anything apart that he could get his hands on. He opened the car door when we were driving. He figured out how to undo baby latches. My friend with the mellow, "late" training boy used to watch my son 2 mornings a week, and she very sweetly put it like this- "toy companies should hire your son to test them on safety and durability". We get the kid we get! Its hard to trust them sometimes, but you're right, that is our work...

Glad you're feeling less frustrated.

[sgmom]

I completely agree with "diaper and forget it", but maybe not in the way it was intended. I would put a diaper on him, and literally forget it. I wouldn't even check to see if he was wet, and only change him when he came to you complaining about being uncomfortable. Eventually he will, and when he does it's a good opportunity to praise him for doing so. You can build your way up from there.

As for offering the potty, I would still ask "do you want to use the potty" (only if you see a signal that he might need to use it), but if he says no, then that should be respected. Definitely keep the communication open, if he tells you he pee'd, tell him how good he was to let you know, ask him if he wants to change into a new diaper or use the potty... etc.

It sounds to me like your boy is choosing when and where, and any "potty training" needs to be done on his terms.

I wish I had more advice to you, but this advice was given to me by a fellow EC'er, and as hard (nb IMPOSSIBLE!) as it was for me to do this, it really seemed to trigger something in my daughter. We're now back to having catches, and I couldn't be more thrilled about it. It might not work for you, but it couldn't hurt to try!

Another "trick" I've heard is to allow privacy. Put the potty in the bathroom (or bedroom, or wherever), tell your son that it's there if he wants to use it, then simply leave the room. He might follow you out, or he might pee right next to it, but he MIGHT surprise you by putting something IN it!

[LCBMAX]

Just another thought - sometimes my son develops an aversion to ALL the variety of potties in our house (bblp, bb, potette, reducers, and 2 more.) At 19 months, he still usually prefers to be held in the classic position. He also will sometimes prefer to pee/ poop ON a diaper on the floor or pavement or anywhere, no hard plastic involved. We're lucky in that we can use the great outdoors during these "strikes".

In your shoes, I might put the potty (that he's pooping near) on a large catch cloth, like a folded sheet, so that "nearby misses" could perhaps be celebrated for having been "catches" of a kind. Or even eliminate all the potties that he "misses" and bring them back out in a while when things are less charged and they seem more interesting again. Draw something fun and silly on a catch cloth and see if he like to aim for that? Especially in colors that run when the pee hits it? I love the privacy idea - I remember a photo of a child in a decorated cardboard refrigerator carton outhouse of her own...

I struggle sometimes with not getting competitive with my own ideas of diaper free, or other people's attachment to our "progress" or lack thereof, so I get the urge to be graduated, whatever that is for you.

[EdnaMarie]

I take my kid to the potty. I have to remind her.

I've seen most of my relatives (my American relatives, and my Asian relatives) remind children to use the potty.

Graduate would be consisently and reliably either takes self to potty or asks for assistance if needed.

So I think in that case, my three-year-old (who has not worn diapers for over a year) is not a graduate. She needs reminding occasionally. Some days, a lot!