Operation Abraham

[pdx.mothernurture]

http://www.operation-ab.org/

I'm opening this thread for discussion here to keep it out of CAC and Activism.

This is a Jewish organization promoting non-religious circumcision.

According to the CDC report in activism, in particular they want to promote circumcision in the US among minorities. :

This is particularly upsetting to learn because the VAST majority Jewish people I've discussed circumcision with-even those who adamantly support brit milah-have said that the only reason to do it is to follow the covenant and very few have ever advocated that gentile children (or adults) be cut.

[Fyrestorm]

That is all I can say

[pdx.mothernurture]

NOTE: Other "Collaborative Members" include: Israel Center for Medical Simulation (MSR), The Edith Wolfson Medical Center (EWMC), Asaf Haroffe Medical Center (AHMC), Israeli Ambulatory Pediatric Association (IAPA), and the Israel Association of Pediatric Surgery (IAPS). LINK

[Liquesce]

I don't understand the Jerusalem AIDS Project to be a religious organization, but a medical one.

[orangebird]

say wha?

[merpk]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

http://www.operation-ab.org/

I'm opening this thread for discussion here to keep it out of CAC and Activism.

This is a Jewish organization promoting non-religious circumcision.

According to the CDC report in activism, in particular they want to promote circumcision in the US among minorities. :

This is particularly upsetting to learn because the VAST majority Jewish people I've discussed circumcision with-even those who adamantly support brit milah-have said that the only reason to do it is to follow the covenant and very few have ever advocated that gentile children (or adults) be cut.

According to the organization's website you've linked to, it mentions zero about the US (that I have seen).

It is specifically directed towards Africa and other developing countries that have been themselves promoting the idea that circumcision can slow the spread of AIDS.

I didn't see any references to minorities in the US at all.

There is also no reference that I could see to infant circumcision at all.

If I'm mistaken, please, someone point out where.

[Ron_Low]

Originally Posted by merpk

I didn't see any references to minorities in the US at all.

There is also no reference that I could see to infant circumcision at all.

If I'm mistaken, please, someone point out where.

Cutting in the US was discussed by director Schenkar in his speech to the CDC.

[SaraFR]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I don't understand the Jerusalem AIDS Project to be a religious organization, but a medical one.

They appear to me as well to all be (secular) medical organizations and not at all religious ones.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by merpk

According to the organization's website you've linked to, it mentions zero about the US (that I have seen).

It is specifically directed towards Africa and other developing countries that have been themselves promoting the idea that circumcision can slow the spread of AIDS.

I didn't see any references to minorities in the US at all.

There is also no reference that I could see to infant circumcision at all.

If I'm mistaken, please, someone point out where.

Read the CDC report thread in activism...that's where the OP heard representatives of this organization discussing the U.S. and minority-circing.

Sidenote: I believe there is a strong religious connection/motivation with this group because the very title implies religious orientation.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally Posted by SaraFR

They appear to me as well to all be (secular) medical organizations and not at all religious ones.

It looks to me like a kind of an unsettling blurring of the lines between religion and secular based science by some people who may be looking for scientific validation for their religious practices.

These people have been involved in the CDC conference, and they have expressed an interest in coming here and participating in mass circumcision campaigns directed at adult AA and Hispanic men. Please see this article here. http://www.forward.com/articles/113748/

Schenker’s American proposal came after the CDC announced last year that it was planning to fund a demonstration project in two community clinics that would, according to the CDC, “offer further insight into the feasibility and uptake of male circumcision among adult high-risk heterosexual males.”

“When this information reached us in Jerusalem, we said, hey, America has decided to move into adult male circumcision. Bravo,” Schenker said. “Could we support this effort in any way?”

The resulting abstract, which he presented in Atlanta, proposes to help train American doctors in much the same way as was effective in Swaziland: by working side by side and showing them how to circumcise efficiently. The innovation creates what Schenker called an “assembly line” technique, working in a team, using only local anesthesia and perfecting a “clamp” method of foreskin removal that uses forceps. The Israeli doctors boast that they are able to perform 30 or 40 circumcisions a day.

I think this whole thing has a lot of religious and ethnic and racial connotations, all sort of blurred together that has the potential to bring up some real ugliness in our society. I really hope that the CDC will exercise a little bit of common sense here.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

Sidenote: I believe there is a strong religious connection/motivation with this group because the very title implies religious orientation.

It seems to me just to be an ill-chosen name. The materials on their website and the information I read on their host organization do not include anything about religion or religious motivations at all. So unless this thread is about some hidden Jewish religious agenda to circumcise the non-Jews of the world -- and I am going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is not the point -- I just don't see the reason for reading a religious agenda into this. It doesn't fit with either Jewish theology or what these organizations have to say about themselves.

[pdx.mothernurture]

http://blogs.jta.org/telegraph/artic...skin-at-a-time

[Liquesce]

I'm not really clear on what that link is meant to demonstrate either?

[merpk]

Yeah, I don't get the point of the link, either.

FWIW, there is nothing religious about the organization.

There is nothing Jewish about circumcising nonJews. Period. There is no theological reason to, Jews don't even believe in converting nonJews to Judaism unless said nonJews insist on it no matter how many times they've been turned away (at a minimum they have to be turned away three times), and Jews have no religious interest in circumcising anyone who is not Jewish. Period. End of sentence.



I have a question, though. Most intactivists on this site insist that it's infant circumcision that they so oppose, and that an adult has the freedom of choice to do whatever the hell they want with their own penis. This entire project seems aimed at adults. So what's the hysteria about?

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by pdx.mothernurture

This is particularly upsetting to learn because the VAST majority Jewish people I've discussed circumcision with-even those who adamantly support brit milah-have said that the only reason to do it is to follow the covenant and very few have ever advocated that gentile children (or adults) be cut.

Have you only been discussing circ with "crunchy" Jewish people?

I've spoken to many Jews who beleive that, since G-d commanded us to circ our sons, it must be better spiritually AND physically, so everybody should do it (and support this belief with various medical research of the type that's been repeatedly debunked on MDC.) I've met others who have a Bris Milah "because that's what you do with a Jewish boy" and dont' reallly think further about it one way or the other. Somebody with that POV can easily be swayed by the "medical evidence" in support of circ.

As for Operation Abraham, this looks entirely like a secular/medical organization to me. Yes, it's based in Israel. Yes, it's likely that there are a lot of Jews in the organization, and it's even possible that it's entirely made up of Jews. But that doesn't make it a "Jewish organization".

Originally Posted by merpk

I have a question, though. Most intactivists on this site insist that it's infant circumcision that they so oppose, and that an adult has the freedom of choice to do whatever the hell they want with their own penis. This entire project seems aimed at adults. So what's the hysteria about?

IMO, it's because it's being promoted in an aggressive way, and the adults choosing to do this may not be making INFORMED choices.

[ursaminor]

Originally Posted by merpk

I have a question, though. Most intactivists on this site insist that it's infant circumcision that they so oppose, and that an adult has the freedom of choice to do whatever the hell they want with their own penis. This entire project seems aimed at adults. So what's the hysteria about?

Unfortunately there is a big push to raise circumcision rates in sub-Saharan Africa to "reduce" HIV rates - these programs target adult men but also extend to upping infant and child circumcision as well. Not only are these particular highly publicized studies flawed, circumcision has been touted the "AIDs vaccine" - not only do men face consequences of having unprotected sex because they believe circumcision protects them, but women are being exposed more and more to the HIV virus because their partners believe they are immune.

If an adult is fully informed of the inherent risks, sensitivity loss, and complications of circumcision, as well as the function of the foreskin, then most certainly one can choose for him/her self. But disinformation and misinformation cancels out any real informed consent.

[Pookietooth]

Yuck! If only they ould stop with their crusade!

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Pookietooth

Yuck! If only they ould stop with their crusade!

They? Who is they?

Jerusalem is a place. A place where Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other manners of people live.

Also, Crunchy Frog, the quote you posted mentioned "Israeli doctors" performing them, meaning that this is a secular organization. If it was "Israel is sending 500 mohelim to the US," then maybe you'd have a case for this being a religious organization.

This is no more a Jewish organization than PETA being a Christian organization by virtue of its headquarters being based in the US.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

They? Who is they?

Jerusalem is a place. A place where Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other manners of people live.

Also, Crunchy Frog, the quote you posted mentioned "Israeli doctors" performing them, meaning that this is a secular organization. If it was "Israel is sending 500 mohelim to the US," then maybe you'd have a case for this being a religious organization.

This is no more a Jewish organization than PETA being a Christian organization by virtue of its headquarters being based in the US.

FWIW, I did not say that this was a religious organization, only that there could be some blurring of the lines between religious/cultural and secular/scientific motivations, and that there could be some motivation to try to use science to validate a religious practice.

This is not an original thought on my part. Eli Ungar-Sargon, mentioned in the article, suggests the same thing, as does Dr Dean Edell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aZl...eature=related (start at 3:27).

In any event, I think it has a large potential to be misconstrued in a very socially detrimental way.

Not that I'm saying there's a direct religious motive. Just a blurring of lines and possibly some unacknowledged underlying motives.

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

FWIW, I did not say that this was a religious organization, only that there could be some blurring of the lines between religious/cultural and secular/scientific motivations, and that there could be some motivation to try to use science to validate a religious practice.

This is not an original thought on my part. Eli Ungar-Sargon, mentioned in the article, suggests the same thing, as does Dr Dean Edell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aZl...eature=related (start at 3:27).

In any event, I think it has a large potential to be misconstrued in a very socially detrimental way.

Not that I'm saying there's a direct religious motive. Just a blurring of lines and possibly some unacknowledged underlying motives.

Oh Dear G!d you obviously know very little about Jews, Judaism and Israel.

Dr. Edell does *not* say that it's "validating religious practice." He *does* say that age-old fear of Jews everywhere ... that Jews sticking their necks into other people's business can get them into trouble. He did suggest that Jews might feel safer with their different penises if other penises were similarly different. That's not "validating religious practice."

Eli Ungar is coming from the same place ... Jews should stop doing the whole "shanda fur de goyim" thing.

Neither of them say it's trying to validate a religious practice.

And there's nothing religious about this.

Despite the fact that Israel is a Jewish state, you should know that the secular nature of the vast majority of the population is very intense. I do mean intensely secular.

The fact that this organization is the product of a group of Jews only says that these are people who share an ethnicity; religion does not play in this. Jewishness is more than just a religion; it is an ethnicity, a "peoplehood."