Converts/Reverts to Judaism OR Islam... - Page 3

[chimomma]

Originally Posted by imnottelling

Most of this is inaccurate, though some is true.
A woman who gets her period separates from her husband for a minimum of 5 days (of bleeding, more if she bleeds more), and then 7 days following to ensure she actually has stopped bleeding completely. She then immerses in a ritual bath, and goes back to her husband.
She can use all the same furniture, dishes, food, etc as before. Her husband most definitely eats the food she cooks or he'd starve They sleep, eat, breathe, etc in the same room. The women pray normally, though some have the custom while actually bleeding not to visit specific holy sites, but I don't think most people keep this. Fasting is dependent on health, not menstruation, per se, so it's hard to answer that.
Since a husband and wife are supposed to have a very close relationship, there is a chemistry that is hard to ignore when they aren't supposed to have relations, and therefore there are specific guidelines only between a husband and wife when she has not yet immersed in the ritual bath. These guidelines help them not to get to the point of no-control where they do end up having relations. This includes not sleeping in the same bed, any physical contact, and can extend to certain other distances, depending on one's sect. But the woman is definitely allowed to touch her father, for example, with no problem. The rules of nidda apply only to the husband-wife relationship. Touching between men and women that aren't related is basically never really allowed according to Orthodoxy since it can lead to more, but this is true practically speaking regardless of a woman's status.

I hope that clarifies some things.

Thanks for that. Just to be sure I understand this fully, is there any differece between what you do on the bleeding days and not bleeding days beside the holy site thing mentioned? Does the menses effect your relgious life in any other way except the relations with ones husband?

For us, the no intercourse thing is only a part of what changes. I am not sure if Jews also have this concept, but in Islam we have some thing called ritual purity in which we need to be in a state of purity to do certain things like formal prayers (salat) or touch the Quran. It is preffered to maintain this state of purity at all times. We need to take a full body wash (ghusl) after our menses or having relations with the husband and certain other situations. And there is minor ritual cleansing (wudu) done if you used the toliet and in other situations where we wash hands, face, arms, wipe head ears, then feet. This has to be maintained for the prayers. So for us the reason we cannot pray, or touch Quran is because the menses breaks our ritual purity. So it affects our life in that way more than anything.

[chimomma]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

As your polite debate has pointed out, there's a lot of issues and stereotypes and whatnot on both side of the fence. There's a lot in common too. I'm loving reading this thread but unfortunately I'm not a whole lot closer (yet) to deciding which, if either, faith I can get into. I don't want to be a righteous gentile, I do want to be a part of a faith group. I want to follow preset laws instead of coming up with everything on my own with no supposed authority to turn to. I want to do the right thing, and I believe BOTH religions are true. But I can't decide which is "truer".

Thanks for making this thread, I have also enjoyed learning from this discussion. From the Islamic perspective both religions are considsered true religions, because they were both revealed by God. We don't believe it is still correct to practice Judaism in this day after the final prophet has come, the religion is complete and now Islam is our religion. My point is that what you think does not totally contradict the Islamic perspective. I think you just have a lot of thinking and praying to do. Have you visited any places of worship?

[AutumnSunshine]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

As your polite debate has pointed out, there's a lot of issues and stereotypes and whatnot on both side of the fence. There's a lot in common too. I'm loving reading this thread but unfortunately I'm not a whole lot closer (yet) to deciding which, if either, faith I can get into. I don't want to be a righteous gentile, I do want to be a part of a faith group. I want to follow preset laws instead of coming up with everything on my own with no supposed authority to turn to. I want to do the right thing, and I believe BOTH religions are true. But I can't decide which is "truer".

Just getting to the rest of the replies now... You do know that in Islam we technically believe that Judaism is a true religion, right? Because just as Christianity sees itself as the expansion on Judaism, Islam sees itself as the expansion on both Judaism and Christianity (and as I mentioned before, any other religions that pre-date it).

When you mean "preset laws" do you mean like for worship rituals and so forth? That's another thing I like in Islam. You have a little of both. For example, although the ritual prayer is scripted, there are also intervals where one is encouraged to throw in personal prayers. And after the ritual prayer it is encouraged to sit and do other personal prayers. Of course there is du`aa' (which I would say encompass more than just the "gimmes" although I guess most of them might fall into that category LOL) and dhikr (remembrance of God, such as by reciting certain names of God or praises of God repeatedly), and wird (which are scripted combinations of du`aa' and dhikr usually written by particular religious figures over the centuries, many of them Sufi but not all), and of course reading Qur'an which counts as an act of worship and remembrance too. Other than the Qur'an reading, all of the above can be made up on your own too.

Islam is also not something confined to a particular ethnic group. I find the latest "Obama myth" to be simultaneously infuriating and hysterical because they act as if Islam is an ethnicity. "Oh, if your father is Muslim then you are considered to be Muslim"... well, that's not the case. In Islam you are what you practice technically speaking but even culturally speaking you can be considered to be what you were raised as. Obviously Barack Obama neither practices nor was raised as a Muslim, therefore nobody in the Muslim world considers him a Muslim, although there is great interest in the idea that he may have more sympathy for Islam by virtue of the fact that he has Muslim family members. But lineage in no way = religion. Thus, there is no such thing as a "convert" having any different standing from a "born Muslim" in any sense. Everyone is considered the same, all equally Muslim.

Of course some Muslims don't quite "get" this and there are converts who have issues being accepted in Muslim communities because people tend to group together along ethnic lines. But I've experienced many communities and I'd say this is a community-specific phenomenon. You have good communities and bad ones. Sometimes college MSAs are better places to find people to relate to because most of the students were born and raised in the US and are less attached to being friends with people of their own ethnic group.

[imnottelling]

Originally Posted by chimomma

Thanks for that. Just to be sure I understand this fully, is there any differece between what you do on the bleeding days and not bleeding days beside the holy site thing mentioned? Does the menses effect your relgious life in any other way except the relations with ones husband?

For us, the no intercourse thing is only a part of what changes. I am not sure if Jews also have this concept, but in Islam we have some thing called ritual purity in which we need to be in a state of purity to do certain things like formal prayers (salat) or touch the Quran. It is preffered to maintain this state of purity at all times. We need to take a full body wash (ghusl) after our menses or having relations with the husband and certain other situations. And there is minor ritual cleansing (wudu) done if you used the toliet and in other situations where we wash hands, face, arms, wipe head ears, then feet. This has to be maintained for the prayers. So for us the reason we cannot pray, or touch Quran is because the menses breaks our ritual purity. So it affects our life in that way more than anything.

For the most part, it just changes the spousal relationship during that time. There are impractical differences -- in the time that the Temple stood, I think women didn't bring sacrifices at those times, or what not, but as far as prayer, that could be done at any time.

[honey-lilac]

Originally Posted by chimomma

Thanks for making this thread, I have also enjoyed learning from this discussion. From the Islamic perspective both religions are considsered true religions, because they were both revealed by God. We don't believe it is still correct to practice Judaism in this day after the final prophet has come, the religion is complete and now Islam is our religion. My point is that what you think does not totally contradict the Islamic perspective. I think you just have a lot of thinking and praying to do. Have you visited any places of worship?

I think that's a really interesting point to consider. To play the devil's advocate, I guess you could look at it the other way too - that all of the Abrahamic faiths are "true-ish" but Judaism was the one that came first so it's the original. I guess it all goes to the idea of whether you believe that Jesus, or Muhammad, were real and true prophets of God, or just, umm... heretics... who took people away from the original faith. It's so confusing and I can see it from all sides. (For the record I do not believe that Muhammad was a heretic. ETA: Or Jesus, but that's another thread altogether.)

I think in my heart I sway a bit more to Islam's teachings, but there is still a lot I don't understand about it. I love something different about each faith. I love Christianity, especially its message of love and forgiveness from God and to one another. I would love to be Catholic again. I just can't accept that God was/is incarnate. So there goes all of Christianity.

I absolutely love Islam but there are some more martial things in it that maybe I'm not understanding. I have read the Koran and I think it's beautiful and the message is positive, etc., but there is a LOT of violence in it. Perhaps it's just stemming from the culture it rose in, but you can't say that there hasn't been a real violent side to Islam through the centuries. There has been so many good things that have come of it as well, art and learning and just amazing things, but there has been ugly sides of it as well. (Then again, there was also the Christian Inquisition, and there's war in the Jewish Bible as well, so it's not like anyone's immune to that.)

And as far as Judaism goes... again. I really love it. I love the culture, the teachings, the history, the holidays, the people, the faith, the close relationship with God, etc. So many things I love about it. But I don't feel particularly like a part of the "Jewish people" - I don't have any strong feelings for Israel - which I see as KEY to that religion.

But I can't just be the "righteous gentile" either because those laws are very... well, simplistic. I mean, OK, I don't murder people and I don't steal. Great. That's not enough for me. I feel called to do things that aren't mentioned in the Noahide laws. Like, for example, covering. I feel called by God to cover, and actually more and more so. And purifying baths, prayers, etc. And dietary laws. They're not kosher but I've realized that I feel dirty after I eat certain things, spiritually dirty, so I'm trying to figure out what is and is not right for me. I've considered switching to kosher or halal to see if maybe that makes me feel cleaner somehow. I'm taking small baby steps to be a better person, but I just don't know where those baby steps are leading, you know?

I've read somewhere that when you convert to, say, Islam, that you're not expected to automatically start following all the laws at once, that would be too much. Allah convinces you little by little of the truth and verity of the laws and thus makes it easy for you to joyously follow his ways instead of feeling trapped by all these things. And I think that's what's happening to me, I'm just not sure what the end result is going to be. I don't know if I'm supposed to remain my faith (Abrahamic but outside the three main religions) and do what I've been doing just more of it, or whether I should convert to find fellowship and direction. I don't want to necessarily go on my own path, I don't have anything against submitting myself to authority, but I also want to figure out WHICH authority it is that I'm supposed to submit TO.

[smeisnotapirate]

When I converted to Judaism, I had NO connection to Israel. At all. Didn't get it.

2 years into my conversion, after growing a lot but still not getting "the Israel thing," I went to Israel.

Boy, did I get it.

Keep in mind that you're always growing. Getting Israel at this point may just not be where you are.

[AutumnSunshine]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

I absolutely love Islam but there are some more martial things in it that maybe I'm not understanding. I have read the Koran and I think it's beautiful and the message is positive, etc., but there is a LOT of violence in it. Perhaps it's just stemming from the culture it rose in, but you can't say that there hasn't been a real violent side to Islam through the centuries.

There is not a lot of violence in the Qur'an! The verses referencing war are very small in number. And even then, you have to understand that these verses are always tempered first of all, by references to specific situations and cautions from God to not exceed the bounds and to cease hostilities when the other side offers peace. Those verses were revealed for particular situations and those particular situations involve the fact that there were some vicious, violent people who were persecuting the early Muslims. The first martyr in Islam was a woman, named Sumayyah. She was killed by impaling through her vagina. Many early Muslims were killed by being slowly crushed to death under large stones in the middle of the desert. Yeah, so "kill them wherever you find them" isn't a bad thing when you are talking about people who did this kind of stuff.

One verse (the number is not handy on me now) references the fact that the Prophet and the believers hated to go to war and didn't want to do it. But it reminds them that if they wanted to survive, that war is sometimes necessary. And if you keep careful track of the restrictions listed in the Qur'an and then do more research about the restrictions mentioned in the aHaadeeth (such as not harming crops, cutting down trees, poisoning wells, mutilating bodies, leaving non-combatants alone, not chaining prisoners, freeing them if they can teach people to read, etc...) you get a full picture.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by UmmZaynab

There is not a lot of violence in the Qur'an! The verses referencing war are very small in number. And even then, you have to understand that these verses are always tempered first of all, by references to specific situations and cautions from God to not exceed the bounds and to cease hostilities when the other side offers peace.

IME when a great many people say they feel there is a lot of violence in the Qur'an they are referring less to the contextually specific verses and more to the descriptions of hell.

[honey-lilac]

Those are all true. I do get the overall theme of Islam is doing good to one another. I like how both Judaism and Islam have "ethical warfare" standards - human rights and all that. And I can't quote the verses but I know there are verses about how people should be kind even to animals. And the absolute respect that Islam has for nature, or, maybe I'm saying it wrong. The wonder the Koran reveals about nature (and what that in turn says about its Creator) is just beautiful and inspiring and something I really heart about Islam.

I know Judaism also has odes to God's goodness in really lovely nature-themed language. I know people often say that paganism really values nature and all (one of the reasons I was attracted to it in the first place, because I'm a at heart) but there is definitely a love of nature in the Abrahamic paths as well.

Sorry if I'm rambling, those are just the first things that popped into my mind. As far as the violence goes... it's sad that there IS so much violence in the world and how much of it is sparked by religious thoughts, and how much of religion gets a bad rap for violence when the original intentions are quite different.

Oh, and about the Israel thing... I think it's beautiful that you got the chance to visit it, sme, and that you "got" Israel's importance. Is it something you'd be able to elaborate on a bit, or is it just too hard to put into words?

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

I guess it all goes to the idea of whether you believe that Jesus, or Muhammad, were real and true prophets of God, or just, umm... heretics... who took people away from the original faith.

I've always been under the impression that Judaism views the Christian Jesus, Muhammad, etc, not as heretics/blasphemers/etc so much as simply irrelevant to Judaism ... no?

[honey-lilac]

I'm not sure about Muhammad. From what I remember being taught as a little Catholic girl (rightly or wrongly) Jesus was definitely considered to be a blasphemer because he was Jewish but spoke against its practices and said some rules weren't necessary, and spoke up against the practice of selling things in the temple etc. From the impression I always got, he wasn't here to make a new religion but to reform Judaism. Which caused the Jews of the day to become, understandably, upset. I don't know if heretic was ever brought up specifically, but definitely something along those lines.

Someone want to educate me with a more scholarly point of view, please?

I figure that by the time Muhammad came around the Jewish point of view was that he was probably irrelevant, because he wasn't coming from a Jewish background but making something entirely new. (Sort of. ykwim)

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

Oh, and about the Israel thing... I think it's beautiful that you got the chance to visit it, sme, and that you "got" Israel's importance. Is it something you'd be able to elaborate on a bit, or is it just too hard to put into words?

It's a really subjective and personal thing. I have no idea how to describe it. But it took me a few years of living as a Jew, of experiencing what we experience as an often-misunderstood minority, before I think I was ready to experience Israel.

Israel is like........... ok, imagine high school. Now take away all the teachers who told you you couldn't do something and all the kids who bullied you and talked about you behind your back for being different. It's really blissful, after being "different" to not be different somewhere. Oh, and then have this blissful place threatened from all sides. It really gives you such a fierce protective love for such a place, but I don't think that anyone who hasn't lived the life of the "other" can really appreciate it. Nowhere else in the WORLD is there a place where Jews are even CLOSE to the majority. It's really an amazing place - not even touching on how breathtakingly beautiful it is.

Originally Posted by Liquesce

I've always been under the impression that Judaism views the Christian Jesus, Muhammad, etc, not as heretics/blasphemers/etc so much as simply irrelevant to Judaism ... no?

Yup. The only "blasphemer" (still not a great word to describe it, really) was Paul. Jews have no problem with Jesus, really - it was Paul who turned Jews into Christians (gentiles), by revoking for them the usefulness of the mitzvot.

There have been many supposed "moshiach" figures. One of the most recent, the Lubavitcher Rebbe (z'l'), was accepted by a group of chassidim but these groups didn't stop being Jews. They still lived as Jews. After Paul, people who believed Jesus was the messiah did not. If it wasn't for Paul, who knows - Christianity may have still been a sect within Judaism.

[kangamitroo]

Originally Posted by umsami

Basically, women who have their period are exempt from the five daily prayers... the ritual prayers that have prescribed movements and words. They're free to make what we call du'a... which is supplication... or as a friend used to say, "the gimme" prayers.... "Oh G-d, please help me pass this test".. type thing.

At first it used to bother me that we couldn't make salat (ritual prayers)... but then I was like, nah...it's great. I like the break. And I could see for women with heavy flow issues, how doing some of the positions could lead to an embarrassing situation... especially in earlier times when feminine hygeine products weren't as great....

this is a helpful perspective for me to hear. when i was at an Iftar last week, (as a guest studying Islam, not--at least as of today--a convert) i sat with a woman who had her period and so was not making salat. i found myself very upset by this--a bit righteously indignant inside actually, thinking "our bodies were made this way! this is unfair! this is clearly a manmade rule! God wants us to pray blahblahblah." on the outside, thankfully holding my tongue, i just said "to me, it would be hard to not make salat". she replied, "it is hard. but remember, i can still make dua and praise Allah."

i've been thinking about fixed religious requirements, and the role they serve in keeping one close to God, mindful of God. that we need to always connect with the meaning behind the requirements so they do not get stale.

for whatever reason, i like the idea of something being a bit hard and require real commitment. whether it is Jewish observances or praying 5 times daily, practicing the restraint of modesty, not just following the crowd. i like the idea of the discipline, and that it can be joyful.

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by kangamitroo

this is a helpful perspective for me to hear. when i was at an Iftar last week, (as a guest studying Islam, not--at least as of today--a convert) i sat with a woman who had her period and so was not making salat. i found myself very upset by this--a bit righteously indignant inside actually, thinking "our bodies were made this way! this is unfair! this is clearly a manmade rule! God wants us to pray blahblahblah." on the outside, thankfully holding my tongue, i just said "to me, it would be hard to not make salat". she replied, "it is hard. but remember, i can still make dua and praise Allah."

FWIW, it has to do with ritual purity. Flowing blood breaks ablution. So, for example, if you have a cut or nosebleed or such, you wait until it stops bleeding, (naturally, by pressure, or whatever), repeat ablutions, and pray again. There is also a recognized state of the chronic nullification of ritual purity though, such that a woman with menstrual difficulties that result in ongoing bleeding, or someone with a wound that will not heal, or a person suffering incontinence, etc, is not at all barred from formal prayer. In a way what not praying is saying is that healthy menstruation is something normal, and therefore should be addressed by the same rules as other bodily functions, injuries, and illnesses that fall into the range of normalcy.

[honey-lilac]

Thanks for the clarification, sme, on the whole heresy issue (or nonissue) and also thank you for your Israel post. It's a really good way of relating it, and having definitely been on the oustide fringes in high school (understatement!) that really helps me sort-of-begin-to-understand. Obviously not fully but I get the gist of what you're saying.

Originally Posted by kangamitroo

i've been thinking about fixed religious requirements, and the role they serve in keeping one close to God, mindful of God. that we need to always connect with the meaning behind the requirements so they do not get stale.

for whatever reason, i like the idea of something being a bit hard and require real commitment. whether it is Jewish observances or praying 5 times daily, practicing the restraint of modesty, not just following the crowd. i like the idea of the discipline, and that it can be joyful.

Yes, yes, yes! You've said it perfectly! And I promise I am not ignoring your PM, I will send it when I can finally stop deleting everything I write and restarting my reply.

[honey-lilac]

Originally Posted by Liquesce

FWIW, it has to do with ritual purity. Flowing blood breaks ablution. So, for example, if you have a cut or nosebleed or such, you wait until it stops bleeding, (naturally, by pressure, or whatever), repeat ablutions, and pray again. There is also a recognized state of the chronic nullification of ritual purity though, such that a woman with menstrual difficulties that result in ongoing bleeding, or someone with a wound that will not heal, or a person suffering incontinence, etc, is not at all barred from formal prayer. In a way what not praying is saying is that healthy menstruation is something normal, and therefore should be addressed by the same rules as other bodily functions, injuries, and illnesses that fall into the range of normalcy.

This brings to mind a conversation we had in a classroom once in undergrad - we were talking about Jewish purity laws. Correct me if I'm wrong but if my memory serves me halfway right, there was something about waiting for the period to stop, waiting for eight days, and then going into the mikvah. A couple of girls brought up the question of what happens if you have a really long period? I often had periods of up to ten or more days per 28 day cycle, so I was curious too. I'd be impure (with or without negative connotations) for almost my whole cycle? Is that right or was my teacher off about the days required?

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

This brings to mind a conversation we had in a classroom once in undergrad - we were talking about Jewish purity laws. Correct me if I'm wrong but if my memory serves me halfway right, there was something about waiting for the period to stop, waiting for eight days, and then going into the mikvah. A couple of girls brought up the question of what happens if you have a really long period? I often had periods of up to ten or more days per 28 day cycle, so I was curious too. I'd be impure (with or without negative connotations) for almost my whole cycle? Is that right or was my teacher off about the days required?

Your teacher was off. It's 7 days after the flow of blood from the uterus has ceased before immersing in mikveh. When I first converted, my periods were around 10-14 days long , which meant that I generally had about 17-21 days of separation from DH. Luckily, my cycles were slightly longer - about 32 days or so, so it wasn't too miserable. I generally got 10-14 days of "together time," too. And trust me - when you can't have sex for 20 days, you are pretty into it for the other 10-14. Side bennie for everyone's patience.

If you're interested in women's purity issues, check out Nishmat. It's an amazingly comprehensive site that gives great answers to some common questions.

[honey-lilac]

I forget where but I remember reading a series of great articles on how passionate and erotic (in a good way) Jewish marriages are because of the whole having to refrain from sexual activities and even just touching, that when it's allowed it's super magical. I can see how that would be a good thing. On the other hand, if I was only allowed to touch my husband for less than a week out of every month... that would be a lot to ask of both of us. Not saying it wouldn't be possible but it would be really hard.

And not wanting to get TMI but one point I had a continuous flow from November to May-ish (medical issues) - so I wouldn't have been able to touch DH for a year? Never mind the sex, but even touching? Yikes. I admire the couples who commit to this teaching, I'm sure there has to be a lot of rewards reaped from it, because it sure must be HARD...

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

I forget where but I remember reading a series of great articles on how passionate and erotic (in a good way) Jewish marriages are because of the whole having to refrain from sexual activities and even just touching, that when it's allowed it's super magical. I can see how that would be a good thing. On the other hand, if I was only allowed to touch my husband for less than a week out of every month... that would be a lot to ask of both of us. Not saying it wouldn't be possible but it would be really hard.

And not wanting to get TMI but one point I had a continuous flow from November to May-ish (medical issues) - so I wouldn't have been able to touch DH for a year? Never mind the sex, but even touching? Yikes. I admire the couples who commit to this teaching, I'm sure there has to be a lot of rewards reaped from it, because it sure must be HARD...

It's really hard, yeah. Especially when you've built a relationship with no rules and then start applying rules to it. It was miserable to begin with, but we're seeing the value.

Your Nov-May thing would be something to consult a rabbi about. It's not meant to be impossible, so many rabbis would take into account the special situation. Any situation outside of the normal (5ish days of bleeding, 7 clean days, 28 day cycle) would be a situation to talk to a rabbi. It's not meant to seriously interfere with a relationship between a husband and a wife.

Personally (and it's a personal thing - not rabbinically sanctioned) DH and I don't refrain from touching. For us, not being incredibly touchy-feely people to begin with, it's not something that leads to intimacy. The rules around touching, passing, throwing, serving each other, etc., are meant to prevent intimacy. For us, it's a non-issue, so we don't hold to it.

I know for some couples it's a chore, but I cannot describe how much this has enriched our relationship. It's really amazing - because I've never had this sort of self-discipline before. (It's all on the woman to count her days and keep the purity rituals, so it's very empowering, IMO.)

[imnottelling]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

When I converted to Judaism, I had NO connection to Israel. At all. Didn't get it.

2 years into my conversion, after growing a lot but still not getting "the Israel thing," I went to Israel.

Boy, did I get it.

Keep in mind that you're always growing. Getting Israel at this point may just not be where you are.

Not to mention that there are plenty of born Jews who don't hold of the current state of Israel as a country. It's more of a connection to the holy places from biblical times, etc....but the country Israel doesn't tug their heartstrings. Going and seeing those holy places is usually what stirs feelings because of those specific landmarks, not because we read about Israel and whatever in the news.