Would appreciate your feedback...(final update #36) - Page 2

[eepster]

Originally Posted by AfricanQueen99

Can you give me some links of complications and whatnot? We know two little boys that had to be recirced and Paul mentioned that being a concern to the OB (the one that mentioned his 99% circ rate).

http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/risks/

[Night_Nurse]

I think it was beautifully written and will be well received. While some people might not want to read a lengthy letter, I think a spouse will and that he'll know she put much thought into it.
Good job!

[dancindoula]

I've said this before, but I hope other posters will bear with me one more time. I wouldn't and don't tolerate the argument about teasing. Ask yourself and him the question: "what sort of message about his worth do we want to teach our son?" Do you want to teach him that if people tease you then you have to go and change yourself to be more pleasing to those people? What happens when other people tease you about the change? Who do you believe? Why do "they" get to define what is worthwhile in him?

I was teased relentlessly as a child. Just to name a handful, I got teased for being "too tall", but my parents didn't work to stunt my growth. I got teased for being "too smart" (but they didn't lobotomize me) AND I got teased for being "stupid" (figure that one out). People WILL tease him about things. They will. I'm sorry, but it's just how it is. What tools are YOU TWO going to give him to deal with the mockery of others? Are you going to do him the disservice of saying "they're right, honey, that <insert offensive trait/body part> really is bad - let's change it"? Or are you going to empower him with the confidence to refuse to take other's criticism to heart and to enjoy the traits/talents/characteristics/skills he has been given without requiring the permission of others to do so?

I'm certain you and your husband both would answer those questions in the same loving way, but sometimes we all just need to take a step back and get a fresh perspective of the REAL issue with some of these arguments.

[AfricanQueen99]

I understand what you're saying, Dancindoula, but I'm one to validate all feelings and thoughts so it still goes in the letter. It's a valid concern of my husbands.

FWIW, I altered it a bit to have a "Surgery on a Newborn" session to highlight some concerns that may arise from it and put the sexual issues under that. It's still being said, but, hopefully, won't be the biggest aspect.

My old man is just coming off a cold so I'm waiting until he feels well to hand everything over. I'm sure I'll be back for more assistance.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

[Kirsten]

Wow, really great letter!!!

My dp was ADAMENTLY for circ; I was against it. We went around and around. Had a girl the first time. Whew.

Luckily, before our second and third children (which are girls too - go figure) he actually SAW in real life a circ performed. We were at a hospital to see our friends' newborn boy. I was with my friend in her room when they took the baby away. She made her dp go with him - so my dp went with him for support. They stood in the hall outside the room. At one point, a nurse opened the door to go out and my dp and hers saw the circ being performed. My dp came back to the room, white as a ghost; I honestly thought he might be having a heart attack - he was shaking and sweating. He told me we had to leave. I hugged my friend and we left. Once we were out of earshot of their room, he told me what happened and said "we are NEVER doing that to any sons!"

So even the most adament pro-circ dads can come around. You are doing a great job of being reasonable, calm, addressing his concerns, etc.

I also really like the book 40 Reasons Not to Circumcise. It is a quick, easy read (paperback) that NOCIRC used to sell. Not sure if they still do.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AfricanQueen99

4. a coworker of his that is intact (unhappily was teased by women and men alike) and circed his sons

I haven't read past this, but has he asked his coworker why, if he doesn't like being intact, he circ'd his sons, instead of himself? I didn't always like having big boobs...but I wouldn't force a boob job on my daughter over that. I'd get one myself, if it were that big an issue.

This line of thinking drives me up a wall.

[AfricanQueen99]

^^^ He *did* ask his co-worker (he didn't know this guy was intact before he was wandering around his office in a "my wife is nuts" way) why he circed his sons and not himself and said guy said to avoid the torment that he endured. Now that said guy is married and older (he's probably mid-40s) he no longer feels that pressure to be the same.

[phrogger]

Originally Posted by AfricanQueen99

^^^ He *did* ask his co-worker (he didn't know this guy was intact before he was wandering around his office in a "my wife is nuts" way) why he circed his sons and not himself and said guy said to avoid the torment that he endured. Now that said guy is married and older (he's probably mid-40s) he no longer feels that pressure to be the same.

That is really too bad considering he probably set his son up for the same kind of torment, being different, since so many are no long circ. their sons.

[AfricanQueen99]

Thanks for your feedback, everybody. I gave my husband the letter about a month ago and he finally had a chance to read it the other day (he's been traveling for work a lot and it's been stress city around here). He responded with "you are making some great points. Let me mull it over for a bit and we can talk soon" (meaning when all the traveling ends).

He even read up the "Stuff Your Mom Never Told You" transcript on circumcision this morning at work and told me about his concern with the HIV/STD link. I explained that it's not really valid, the numbers are off, etc and emailed him the Daily Nation link about circing not working in Kenya.

We're actually having real, non-confrontational conversations about this. It's great! Because the fighting bit wasn't working.

Anyway, thanks for helping me work out my thoughts for the letter.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by AfricanQueen99

Thanks for your feedback, everybody. I gave my husband the letter about a month ago and he finally had a chance to read it the other day (he's been traveling for work a lot and it's been stress city around here). He responded with "you are making some great points. Let me mull it over for a bit and we can talk soon" (meaning when all the traveling ends).

He even read up the "Stuff Your Mom Never Told You" transcript on circumcision this morning at work and told me about his concern with the HIV/STD link. I explained that it's not really valid, the numbers are off, etc and emailed him the Daily Nation link about circing not working in Kenya.

We're actually having real, non-confrontational conversations about this. It's great! Because the fighting bit wasn't working.

Anyway, thanks for helping me work out my thoughts for the letter.

You might also mention that the rates of HIV in the US are far far lower than in Africa and that circumcision would provide little practical benefit under those conditions. You might want to read this bbc article which gives a British perspective: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7960798.stm

And an Australian perspective: http://www.afao.org.au/library_docs/...rcumcision.pdf

"An Australian-born man is estimated to have a 0.02% (0.0002) risk of HIV acquisition if he does not inject drugs or have sex with men.11 This very low risk means that the population health benefit of an intervention like generalised circumcision programs would be negligible."

[A&A]

Read this. do NOT show it to your dh, though.

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

[nummies]

Sounds like things are going better! Keep up the great work mama!

[DocsNemesis]

So wait...he circ'd his sons because he didn't want them to get made fun of, yet he didn't do it to himself at any point? Why didn't he do it to himself? I know you can't actually ask that, but really, I bet he was scared of getting it done, afraid of the pain or something. Which means, he was scared of it hurting him, so he did it to his newborns who didn't even have the benefit of anesthesia or good pain meds? Nice.

Btw, that is NOT the norm. My ex brother in laws are not circ'd and they grew up when most boys were still being cut. They have never been made fun of, the most they've gotten is curiosity about it. With fewer and fewer boys being circ'd now, its even more unlikely.

Also, I'd have him think about this: would he really went his son to be with a woman who was so superficial, she would say things about how his penis looks? I know I wouldn't. I'd say at least 95% of the female population doesn't care either. Those who do are the odd ones out, especially today. I mean again, half of boys arn't circ'd in the US, girls are going to be much more used to seeing an intact boy than they were even 20 years ago.

I don't know where you live but the numbers also vary a lot by region. You may be able to use that to your advantage if you're in certain areas, in others you probably don't want to mention it. For instance, I live in the Seattle area and only about 30% of boys are circ'd here. In my sons class, only a couple appear to be and when its been randomly brought up in moms groups, most of the boys arent cut either.

[LaffNowCryLater]

I love this site b/c it is a government site and people tend to take it more seriously than a "propaganda" site. It is kind of equivalent to the AAP but for Canada:

http://www.cps.ca/caringforkids/preg...rcumcision.htm

Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:

*

20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.
*

2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.
*

2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.
* About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.

In rare cases, pain relief methods and medicines can cause side effects and complications. You should talk to your baby’s doctor about the possible risks.

Pain relief:

* Newborn babies do feel pain. Without pain relief, circumcision is painful. Acetaminophen (such as Tempra or Tylenol) or EMLA cream, which numbs the skin, won’t be enough.

[LaffNowCryLater]

If he is worried about being made fun of by his peers for being intact, then he would probably be even more concerned about an extremely small penis caused by circumcision:

Inconspicuous Penis
Related concepts:
Absent penis, Buried penis, Concealed penis, Hidden penis, Micropenis, Penile agenesis, Trapped penis, Webbed penis

Who gets it?
Boys can be born with a webbed penis, or the condition can result from an over-exuberant circumcision where adhesions form between the scrotal skin and the penile skin. Webbed penis usually causes no problems (unless a routine circumcision is later performed).

Some children are born with a concealed penis (also known as buried penis or hidden penis), and for some it happens after circumcision. It is common in infants and toddlers, and occasionally seen in older children and obese adolescents.

Children are not born with trapped penis; circumcision causes it. Routine circumcision of a webbed penis or circumcision when there is significant scrotal swelling (from a hydrocele or hernia) can lead to trapped penis.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_1125.html

[AfricanQueen99]

So, the final update...

I called him at work this morning about something completely different and asked what he was doing. He replied "finishing my research for our circumcision conversation tonight." I just said "ok" and left it at that since I had no idea what his "research" could be.

He walked in tonight and came right up to me to say "I've decided that our son will have an uncircumcised penis and that's all I'll say about that." To which I said "huh? what caused the switch?" I got a "I've done my research and I don't really want to discuss it." I started with something along the lines of "it's not YOUR decision to make", but then I realized it was a lose-lose thing of me just not appreciating his weird I-rule-the-home tone (which is so far from being true) and dropped it.

During dinner I said something about being interested in what caused the change of heart and he said that he will tell me someday, but right now he's too "emotionally exhausted" over the topic. So, I'm dropping it and moving on.

Yay! I'm glad it's over and we shook on it.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by AfricanQueen99

So, the final update...

I called him at work this morning about something completely different and asked what he was doing. He replied "finishing my research for our circumcision conversation tonight." I just said "ok" and left it at that since I had no idea what his "research" could be.

He walked in tonight and came right up to me to say "I've decided that our son will have an uncircumcised penis and that's all I'll say about that." To which I said "huh? what caused the switch?" I got a "I've done my research and I don't really want to discuss it." I started with something along the lines of "it's not YOUR decision to make", but then I realized it was a lose-lose thing of me just not appreciating his weird I-rule-the-home tone (which is so far from being true) and dropped it.

During dinner I said something about being interested in what caused the change of heart and he said that he will tell me someday, but right now he's too "emotionally exhausted" over the topic. So, I'm dropping it and moving on.

Yay! I'm glad it's over and we shook on it.

Sounds like he thinking about what he lost. Well whatever it is give him time. And when the time is right, if that is what it is, make sure he knows that it's not about what happened to him.

[LaffNowCryLater]

Glad to hear the issue was settled

[Goodmom2008]

I would also put out pamphlets on the intact penis and how normal it is. I've heard the bathroom is a good place.

As for when he said that he decided not to have the foreskin removed, it sounds like he heard the circumcision video.

My ex and I didn't fight about it. Once he read in the newspaper that it wasn't medically necessary, he knew that he would lose any argument with me. I don't think he really came around until he heard that baby crying in the circumcision video a few years after our son was born.

Give your dh time. He will eventually get it. And be happy that it wasn't done to his son.

[DocsNemesis]

Wow, what a change. I'm very glad he took the initiative and researched it on his own! Good for him!

I also agree, it sounds like he is upset over something-he might be grieving what he lost, he might be upset over the pain he was caused, heck, he might just be upset that he was always told it was needed and now he knows it isn't. I agree though, just leave him be and allow him to tell you when he is ready.

I honestly wouldn't push anything else with him now. Once he opens up to you, you can bring up stuff, possibly. Or once the baby is getting close to being here, just make sure he read up on how to take care of the intact penis. That's about all I'd do personally.