The balance between education and respect - Page 2

[LiamnEmma]

Of course I thought about this post last night and most of today, and thinking about what else I wanted to bring to it. I really appreciate this thread in general....

Anyway, while I'm thinking about it, what keeps popping into my mind is the secretary for my department. She and I had babies at the same time. I was on baby #2, she was on baby #1. I don't remember ever being rude or offensive, but I was still very rigid in my beliefs about birth...having had a csection with baby #1, I was of course determined not to have that happen the second time around. She couldn't have cared less outwardly how it all went. She seemed to give it all minimal thought actually. I found that disturbing and irresponsible. And I'm sure I made several, well meaning and pointed remarks with the intent of "educating" her. I had another cbirth and she had a completely unmedicated vaginal birth. So much for me and my angst. : (you're not alone here Kim, I just don't always mention how my kids were born, it seems to decrease my credibility...and others--honestly ask yourself, did your opinion of my previous opinion drop just a little now that you know? I bet for some of you it did. That's okay, I'm just pointing out that we're all biased)

Since then I've relaxed a lot of my rigidity. I pumped for and breastfed my kids--I personally take credit for the pumping room installed in my district office following my unrelenting pursuit of a suitable place to pump that did not include a toilet--the secretary pumped for awhile then quit. I never said a word. I learned that we all have different lives and experiences and my reality is not hers. Recently she and I have begun processing our early relationship (i.e., when we were pregnant) and several times she began the conversation by saying something about how our pregnancy hormones didn't work together well. Finally she spit out what she really thinks. She said, "You made me feel like I was doing everything wrong." That sounds about right. I never once said that. I never once told her she made a poor choice or whatever. But I thought it. A lot. I completely disapproved of so many things, and in my effort to "educate" her, I just made her averse to me. I thought I was being enlightening. I was just obnoxious. I find she listens to my opinions far more now that I treat her as if her opinions and life experiences matter too. Because they do. Now we share our individual thoughts, it's not just me teaching her about her rights and abilities...

Honestly, I don't see birth anymore as much different than any other right to choose any other thing. If the consequences of an action are known, the risks involved weighed, why can't a woman elect to cbirth, or birth vaginally or any other of the choices? If we're talking about empowerment, and making people aware, then we have to respect that sometimes their decisions will not be ours. And by the same token, not everybody processes their grief, their trauma, their pain at the same rate in the same way. To me, that's AP--recognizing the individuality of lives, and that's what's truly not mainstream--being open to the ideas and actions of those that don't agree with our own.

Leah

[cottonwood]

Stafl wrote: "And when I read a post on this board or others about how horrible c-sections are...well, it does sometimes strike a raw nerve. It's like telling me that I'm weaker or somehow less of a woman that I allowed them to do that to me. Some posts have actually left me in tears. I know I can't be the only one. It can be just like certain activists are twisting the dagger the surgeon left in my heart, telling me how I could have avoided what happened to me when they weren't there, they really *don't* know what I went through."

This makes total sense. I can see how well-intentioned advice, even if is right on, can cause pain. I can also see how activism can be a vehicle for moralistic judgement against the victim, and how moralistic judgement can be inferred by the victim even when it is not meant.

Given all that, I still don't know what that means about how I should conduct myself as an activist. For whatever reasons, not all women will find the information that will benefit them. And I don't always know which women these are. So this is my own moral quandary: if I have information that someone might be appreciative of, something that they might not otherwise learn on their own, something that might help them avoid pain and suffering -- how can I not tell them what I know? To open my mouth means to take the risk that they will be offended, that they will misinterpret my distress that people are being hurt, misinterpret my intense anger at those whose who do the hurting, and that they will think to themselves about me, "Of course this is said with sugar and delight but the under current is a sarcastic tidal wave," that I am only in it to boost my own ego and play the hero. But to not say anything means to risk that they might never find out -- and any future suffering they are subjected to because of the lack of the knowledge would be on my head, because I had a chance to give it to them and didn't. It is all well and good to offer advice only if it is asked for; but what if the person doesn't even know that there is anything to question? What then?

Here on the boards it's even more complex because there are a lot of people reading. A lot of them are here to learn. So if I have information to share about some issue, wouldn't it be wrong of me to stay silent out of fear of offending the person whose story brings up the issue? I could start a new thread, but that would be awfully transparent. That person would probably still see it and know that it was prompted by their story. But if I don't say anything I've then lost the chance to give something to someone else (one of those many people reading) that they might appreciate or that might benefit them. I know that often I read about issues here on the boards that never once occured to me until someone brought them up -- and I was thankful to be made aware of them.

[cottonwood]

LisaG wrote: "And then I wondered why am I so bothered when I hear stories from women who think they would've died had they not had a c/s for x, y, z reason? Why do I care?"

I think for me it is at base the horror that I feel thinking about myself being in that situation -- doing my best to be informed, but missing some things that end up causing me a lot of pain and trauma. The thought that my inaction could be indirectly responsible for putting someone else in that same position is too much for me to bear. It eats me up.

[cottonwood]

OnTheFence wrote: "I dont think much of a woman who puts her life and child at risk to try to prove something to the rest of the world, medical establishment or even herself. I have read time and time again about fear based medicine, well there is a flip side to that as well and its here running rampant through these forums and in other circles."

What exactly is your point? Are you trying to give the birth "extremists" a taste of their own medicine? Because this is a pretty harsh, judgemental, hurtful (and IMO off-the-wall) statement -- wasn't the making of such statements exactly what you were railing against in the first place?

(edited for clarity)

[anothermama]

Originally posted by blueviolet
OnTheFence wrote: "I dont think much of a woman who puts her life and child at risk to try to prove something to the rest of the world, medical establishment or even herself. I have read time and time again about fear based medicine, well there is a flip side to that as well and its here running rampant through these forums and in other circles."

What exactly is your point? Are you trying to give the birth "extremists" a taste of their own medicine? Because this is a pretty harsh, judgemental, hurtful (and IMO off-the-wall) statement -- wasn't the making of such statements exactly what you were railing against in the first place?

(edited for clarity)

Thank you, BV. Thats what I was thinking in a much less coherant way.....

To be really frank....I see lots more insta-defensiveness from c section or high intervention moms. They seem ready to jump with out the slightest provocation to defend THEIR UNIQUE circumstance, which kind of comes around to what I said...its insulting to people to insinuate that they are somehow average.

While I understand that defensiveness, I honestly think it's a case of "me thinks thou dost protest too much". And I think much of it is not really warranted. I'm sure there have been harsh words thrown out and I'm sure it was hard....but it doesn't mean everyone who is against the rising rate of c sections is against YOU, and I think maybe people have a hard time detatching themselves...it is such a *personal* surgery. If I'm being REALLY REALLY honest...and who knows, maybe I shouldn't be...I think that the reason so many high intervention moms get so so defensive and so insulted is because they have something deep down telling them that maybe it could have been different. And, when you are talking about parenting issues and something makes you doubt yourself...that is HARD to deal with. We've all dealt with it in some way, but this is SUCH a truly personal thing....

A lot of it, though, I don't understand. I can only defend the things in my first birth in so far as I didn't know better. Now I know better. I don't know if that makes any sense.

I think part of it does need to be a hard line, though. How many times can you turn your head, bite your tongue, and say "Oh you poor thing!" and not be contributing to the problem? I don't really expect to make that big a difference with someone online...but with women I KNOW, I just don't think it's ok for me to just smile and nod and go blindly along with their "I had to because every single thing about my birth was DIFFERENT!" because....well, I know that most of the time, thats not true. And I know that a large reason they think that is because a "professional" told them that. I know lots of moms who HAVE been like "lambs to slaughter", and is it really helping the problem to just ignore your knowledge and education and let them tell their story to another mom who will think it's ok???

I dunno........I really don't.

[LisaG]

Blueviolet wrote

I think for me it is at base the horror that I feel thinking about myself being in that situation -- doing my best to be informed, but missing some things that end up causing me a lot of pain and trauma.

You hit the nail on the head for me As much as I'd love to say my intentions are entirely altruistic, beneath it all is the thought "what if I were in this situation, what if that woman were me?" And I learn from women who have made "mistakes", I learn from women who have been through birth trauma - vaginal or c/s/b, I learn from women I piss off. I learn that no matter what happens, there have been others who have gone there before me and hopefully they'll help me find my way.

Leah wrote

If the consequences of an action are known, the risks involved weighed, why can't a woman elect to cbirth, or birth vaginally or any other of the choices? If we're talking about empowerment, and making people aware, then we have to respect that sometimes their decisions will not be ours.

Absolutely! I just have a little glitch with the "consequences of an action are known, the risks involved weighed" because I think that information is hard to come by. Or that the expectation is that your doc or your midwife is the ultimate source of information. Personally, I don't find anyone to be the ultimate source of information, and that's when I frequently get triggered. The "my doctor told me" so it's the law. They might be right, they might not be and I feel that we are so used to birth professionals being the ultimate authority that we forget there might be other information out there. I do find it a lot easier to let go of scenarios where I feel a woman is fully informed and made her own decision even if I might have done something different. Of course, that's also my judgement of what qualifies as "fully informed". Sigh. I'm sure someday this whole letting go thing is going to get easier, right?

LisaG

[captain optimism]

This is a really great discussion! Thank you to all the people who are open to rethinking how we talk about this stuff!

I came to this forum, I think it was last month, to process what was for me a disappointing birth. (Not disappointed in my baby, God forbid, who is the most wonderful imaginable baby--and was so from the first moment!) To summarize that whole story, I had my waters break and then didn't go into labor. AFter 44 hours of trying to induce non-pharmacologically, I went to the hospital and agreed to pitocin. Another 24 hours of no progress on the pitocin, I agreed to an epidural because the practitioners thought it might help me to have a LOT of pitocin and some sleep. I was then able, with a lot of patience, to dilate and finally, after pushing 8 hours, to give birth. My baby was never in distress, but I had every intervention: pitocin, pain meds, monitors (external and internal) birth lying down (and man that sucked) and finally an episiotomy.

When I wrote about it here, I asked what I could have done differently to make my labor go without all those interventions. here's what I noticed: some people talked generally about what causes that kind of labor and what sorts of conditions a pregnant woman should seek out to make labor go normally. Other people wrote me saying essentially that I did it wrong, that they would never have agreed to those interventions.

So there are two things that I was thinking about what feels bad about that judgement.

#1: It makes it all about the woman giving birth. As everyone who has given birth or watched someone give birth knows, you don't have total presence of mind in labor. (Or even in pathetic non-labor. : ) How "empowering" is it to be blamed because someone took your power? Or even because you made the best decision you could with the situation you were handed?

#2: sometimes a non-professional person (non-midwife, non-doula, non-OB, etc.) responding to the thread is assuming that they know more about what was going on with the mom's body than the pros on the scene knew. That might be true, but it's a hell of an assumption. I think I would ask some questions about what the pros said was happening before I decided that I knew better? Or even, to ask, "well, they said X, but what did it feel like to YOU?" Before you say, "oh no, it NEVER happens that way."

Here's how I have been thinking about this in connection with breastfeeding: I don't want to blame a mom for not breastfeeding if she tried, encountered obstacles, and didn't get good information about how to overcome them. That seems like kicking a sister when she's down. Shouldn't activism be about giving women what they need to make it work?

[Greaseball]

I think who we are really "kicking" are the professionals that take power and rights away from women, and it can sound like we are blaming the women. (I know some people do blame the woman as well.) If a mom tells me she tried to have a natural birth but then goes into how small her pelvis is and how she hadn't made any progress for 4 hours and then guess what, of course I want her to know that it was all crap and she probably could have done what she wanted if she had been able to go at her own pace. But it could be she will intrepret that as me judging her.

Birth activists have information that doctors do not have (or do not want to share: ). I think women have a right to that information.

[LiamnEmma]

I just have a little glitch with the "consequences of an action are known, the risks involved weighed" because I think that information is hard to come by.

Agreed! And so maybe activism should be played out in the medical arena instead. Lobbying for doctors to give out more information, going to conventions and conferences where there are medical personnel and telling the stories, hitting the colleges where future practitioners are being trained...making a change in the established practice. I do believe women also bear responsibility in their births and so on, but, as I said on another of these posts about a year ago, just because the information you have is true, does not mean that the appropriate time to introduce it is when the woman is talking about her last birth, kwim? It just kind of rubs salt in the wound and decreases how much of the information is going to be heard.

[Greaseball]

Even on a discussion board, there are things one just doesn't have to look at. If you see a thread titled "stupid unnecessary cesareans" or "my dumb sister had an epidural, can you believe her" you could always not look at it. I think this board even has a feature where you can block the view of all posts from a certain user, so if you know someone is a birth activist and don't want to hear anything they have to say, you could just use that feature.

Or there is always the c-section support thread. Threads like that are a good idea.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by LisaG
First off, Kim thank you for contributing to this discussion. I appreciate that you take the time for this.

On a more personal note, I would venture to say, based on a couple previous posts by you in another thread, that given my bicornuate surgery history I would fall into that group you consider are taking the unnecesary risk of self and baby for a vaginal birth. While I'm sure some women do feel it necessary to "prove" they can have a vaginal birth (and I'm not sure why that's always a bad thing), I'd also like to suggest that some of us have arrived at that decision informed and have decided that the risks are worth it, just like other women have decided the risks of a c/s/b are worth it. I've decided that my risk for rupture increases the more incisions made in my uterus and therefore choose not to create another one if at all possible. Nor do I want to increase abdominal adhesions, risking my future fertility. Nor do I wish to once again recover from major abdominal surgery, or any of the other risks/side effects of c/s/b. I have decided what risks I am most comfortable with, and I suppose some could argue that it's completely stupid to be concerned about risk of adhesions when we're talking about the risk of the life of a baby. But there is no risk free option. Having a c/s/b doesn't mean something catastrophic couldn't happen either.


LisaG

Dear Lisa,

Thank you for your comments, I have a moment, its late but I wanted to take time to respond to you. I dont want you to think that I am judging you or think you are making the wrong decision about any future pregnancy. I just want you to be fully informed and be fully prepared for what might actually happen should you get to the end and realize that a surgical birth is necessary or that things dont go as planned and you end up having a surgical birth. I think its great that your mindset is for a vaginal delivery at that you are aware of the risks.
I was totally unaware of my uterus until after the fact. I prepared for a natural vaginal delivery. Even after I was told I had a transverse baby Jan 15, 1997 I still believed that I would have a vaginal birth. By this time I had broken ribs and looked lopsided, I went home called everyone I knew and laid upside down on a ironing board for the next three weeks, not to mention all the massages, meditation, beggin god, etc that took place. I showed up at the hospital on Feb 3 1997 with the thought that I would still have a vaginal delivery. Its hard to explain but that was one of the best and worst days of my life. And part of the reason it was the worst day of my life was because of this thought "its not going to happen to me, I am not going to be one of those women with a surgical birth". I never once entertained the idea, EVER that I would be the woman in the operating room and what happened to me was gruesome, life threatening and emotionally scarring. Of course that part wasnt my fault!
I just hope, and pray that when the time comes, and you are pregnant with your little one, that you not only listen to your head but also to your baby and your gut. I hope you prepare for what could possibly happen, not because it will, but because it might and why be unprepared emotionally and spiritually for that event. I hope you will trust me when I say that being prepared, having a backup in no way means defeat or that it will lead to that outcome, but can provide you with peace of mind.
I did consider VBAC with my son. He was even head down from 27 weeks onward. I entertained the idea and discussed it with my doctor who would have given me the opportunity (though closely monitored). She made articles readily available to me and even medical text books with great information about mullerian anomalies. She let me know that she didnt have the answers and that she had not had many patients with my condition. I was not willing to take the risk, at all. I believe and still do that my csectoin was far less risk than a VBAC. I had worked too hard to maintain my pregnancy (one I might add thought I would not ever have) and have another biological child to risk his life or my reproductive organs. This is not to say that I didnt secretly wish that my water would break and I would go into labor and he would slide right out LOL I did however know in my gut that it was the right thing to do. I planned and worked with my doctor and hospital to achieve something in the OR that not many have experienced. What happened in that OR restored me in ways I cant even put words too and I never ever regret.
It will be nice to follow you over this time to see where you may end up! I just hope you dont think I am unsupportive, far from i!

Kim

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by Greaseball


The thing is, I'm probably right. I probably do know more than the doctor does. The WHO estimates that 50% of sections are unnecessary, so if someone has one there is at least a 50% chance they didn't need it. If they had an emergency, there is a good chance that is caused by the doctor as well.

This is the kind of comments I think that bothers me the most. They are arrogant and said with suoeriiority where there is none. It is these comments that turn me off.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by LiamnEmma


Since then I've relaxed a lot of my rigidity. I pumped for and breastfed my kids--I personally take credit for the pumping room installed in my district office following my unrelenting pursuit of a suitable place to pump that did not include a toilet--the secretary pumped for awhile then quit. I never said a word. I learned that we all have different lives and experiences and my reality is not hers. Recently she and I have begun processing our early relationship (i.e., when we were pregnant) and several times she began the conversation by saying something about how our pregnancy hormones didn't work together well. Finally she spit out what she really thinks. She said, "You made me feel like I was doing everything wrong." That sounds about right. I never once said that. I never once told her she made a poor choice or whatever. But I thought it. A lot. I completely disapproved of so many things, and in my effort to "educate" her, I just made her averse to me. I thought I was being enlightening. I was just obnoxious. I find she listens to my opinions far more now that I treat her as if her opinions and life experiences matter too. Because they do. Now we share our individual thoughts, it's not just me teaching her about her rights and abilities...

Honestly, I don't see birth anymore as much different than any other right to choose any other thing. If the consequences of an action are known, the risks involved weighed, why can't a woman elect to cbirth, or birth vaginally or any other of the choices? If we're talking about empowerment, and making people aware, then we have to respect that sometimes their decisions will not be ours. And by the same token, not everybody processes their grief, their trauma, their pain at the same rate in the same way. To me, that's AP--recognizing the individuality of lives, and that's what's truly not mainstream--being open to the ideas and actions of those that don't agree with our own.

Leah

Leah I want to hug you!!!!!!!! You say it all so well and I have had similar experiences, not just with childbirth, but with breastfeeding and attachment parenting issues as well. I later learned what an ass I was to people trying to enlighten them (of course I was always a good southern belle while doing it) Thankfully one of those women forgave me for my arrogance and is now one of the best friends a woman can have.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by blueviolet
LisaG wrote: "And then I wondered why am I so bothered when I hear stories from women who think they would've died had they not had a c/s for x, y, z reason? Why do I care?"

I think for me it is at base the horror that I feel thinking about myself being in that situation -- doing my best to be informed, but missing some things that end up causing me a lot of pain and trauma. The thought that my inaction could be indirectly responsible for putting someone else in that same position is too much for me to bear. It eats me up.

I love what you said above and I wanted to add to it.
When I was planning for my natural unmedicated vaginal birth in 96 and 97 I didnt do my best to be informed. My lack of information was not about the risks of epidurals or interventions, or the right position to birth a baby, etc etc etc it was that I never thought "what if" I had a surgical birth. What happens if I do need a csection. I was so pigheaded and judgemental that I just knew it would never happen to me. ( I think god smiled when I got knocked off that pedestal) Can you imagine the pain and trauma I suffered, the fear of the unknown as they took me down the hall to that OR. No one, not my crunchy homebirthing friends, not the midwife I spoke with during my pregnancy, not my birth educator once ever prepared me for what could have happened -- however there was plenty of discussion about how not to end up in the OR, why surgical birth was so unnecessary, etc. And that is why I am here today, trying to voice and support women who may be that woman having the surgical birth or preparing for a second surgical birth or needing to heal from a surgical birth because no one gave me that. Once I came home, do you think my homebirthing friends came and embraced me? No. In fact when they did come around and listen to my story one of them actually said "You could have had a vaginal birth if you would have just waited." The sad thing is I have read that same sentiment here. I remember the depression I felt during that time, wondering, "what if I had waited". Torturing myself. I have to ask, in general "Is that the kind of pain you want to leave with another woman?"

Kim

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by blueviolet
OnTheFence wrote: "I dont think much of a woman who puts her life and child at risk to try to prove something to the rest of the world, medical establishment or even herself. I have read time and time again about fear based medicine, well there is a flip side to that as well and its here running rampant through these forums and in other circles."

What exactly is your point? Are you trying to give the birth "extremists" a taste of their own medicine? Because this is a pretty harsh, judgemental, hurtful (and IMO off-the-wall) statement -- wasn't the making of such statements exactly what you were railing against in the first place?

(edited for clarity)

My point is that this is what often goes on that people are unaware of. Pam put something out there to be discussed and I am pointing out how *I* see and feel about things I have read and experienced on this forum. I dont believe its off the wall at all -- not from my seat at least. My statement may be harsh and I am sorry if it offends but in my belief it is truth.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by anothermama
While I understand that defensiveness, I honestly think it's a case of "me thinks thou dost protest too much". And I think much of it is not really warranted.
If I'm being REALLY REALLY honest...and who knows, maybe I shouldn't be...I think that the reason so many high intervention moms get so so defensive and so insulted is because they have something deep down telling them that maybe it could have been different.
And, when you are talking about parenting issues and something makes you doubt yourself...that is HARD to deal with. We've all dealt with it in some way, but this is SUCH a truly personal thing....

The above two statements is the arrogance and judgement that makes some of us angry here. Because we defend our choices doenst make us any less right than you defending or advocating your decisions to do something different.
I KNOW my surgical births were necessary. I KNOW that it wouldnt have been any different. I am insulted that someone can be so arrogant to think they know what is best for me, my child, and can make medical claims about my body they have never seen.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by captain optimism

When I wrote about it here, I asked what I could have done differently to make my labor go without all those interventions. here's what I noticed: some people talked generally about what causes that kind of labor and what sorts of conditions a pregnant woman should seek out to make labor go normally. Other people wrote me saying essentially that I did it wrong, that they would never have agreed to those interventions.

So there are two things that I was thinking about what feels bad about that judgement.

#1: It makes it all about the woman giving birth. As everyone who has given birth or watched someone give birth knows, you don't have total presence of mind in labor. (Or even in pathetic non-labor. : ) How "empowering" is it to be blamed because someone took your power? Or even because you made the best decision you could with the situation you were handed?

#2: sometimes a non-professional person (non-midwife, non-doula, non-OB, etc.) responding to the thread is assuming that they know more about what was going on with the mom's body than the pros on the scene knew. That might be true, but it's a hell of an assumption. I think I would ask some questions about what the pros said was happening before I decided that I knew better? Or even, to ask, "well, they said X, but what did it feel like to YOU?" Before you say, "oh no, it NEVER happens that way."

Here's how I have been thinking about this in connection with breastfeeding: I don't want to blame a mom for not breastfeeding if she tried, encountered obstacles, and didn't get good information about how to overcome them. That seems like kicking a sister when she's down. Shouldn't activism be about giving women what they need to make it work?

First of all {{{HUGS}}} I am have been where you are in reguards to the treatment you recieved. I think your post was right on the money and very thought provoking.

I will probably post more later on what you had to say. Its approaching midnight and I must get some sleep!

[cortsmommy]

I dont know the answer. All I know is that I feel that my power was taken away by the doctor that I had. He took away my right as a woman to give birth and wanted that power for himself. I know its silly to say that I feel like less of a woman because of my csection but I truly do. I am Wiccan and so I have a strong spiritual connection with fertility and reproduction and with giving birth and that most precious moment when my son should have entered the world through me and by my power and my will was taken from me. He was yanked out of my birth canal backwards and pulled out of my stomach into the world. Completely unnatural and unnecessary and I can never have that back and can never do it again.

Why did that happen to me? Because I was unsure of myself. I was naive and immature and above all I was afraid. I was afraid of pain, afraid of the unknown, afraid of just letting go. I was uncomfortable and afraid.

What is the final outcome ?? Well, when I looked back on what happened to me and when I cried and cried about it I realized that there was only myself to blame. I realized that I needed to be more strong in my convictions and to be more educated, more self-assured, and more faithful to myself and my spirit. It has been through my pain and disapointment that I have grown. As I became a mother I also became a woman instead of the child that I was before. I know that everything happens for a reason and I am thankful that now my eyes are open. I question everything now. I research everything now. I will not be blind to anything anymore. In the end my child has benefitted because now he has a very vigilant mother.

[miserena]

Originally posted by OnTheFence
I planned and worked with my doctor and hospital to achieve something in the OR that not many have experienced. What happened in that OR restored me in ways I cant even put words too and I never ever regret.

Could you elaborate on what was different during your second c/s that made the experience better for you?

Michelle
mama to Eileen, 11/04/01, unplanned c/s

[LiamnEmma]

Even on a discussion board, there are things one just doesn't have to look at. If you see a thread titled "stupid unnecessary cesareans" or "my dumb sister had an epidural, can you believe her" you could always not look at it. I think this board even has a feature where you can block the view of all posts from a certain user, so if you know someone is a birth activist and don't want to hear anything they have to say, you could just use that feature.

Greaseball, I'm confused. Maybe this is just coincidentally behind my last post, but is that directed to me? I find that somewhat bizarre. I didn't think I was being rude, I thought I was putting forth some ideas to the group about activism, and how to go about making changes. If it is, I don't understand why I can't put forth my ideas as well. :