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EC today vs how "it used to be done" - Page 2

post #21 of 72
sgmom:

THANKYOU For this great thread and all the other writers!

SOOOOO interesting, I am at stage 1, glimpsing at 2 (he started signaling! a bit!) And I EC from 4/5 mo, he is now 10 mo.

Loving this and reading it over and over........
post #22 of 72
LOL, Moonchild, you're way ahead of me; my DD is still at phase one and she's 18 months!

But seriously...I think SO much of enjoying EC has to do with changing your mindset about pee and being laid back about the whole process. I love what gingerbane says about people thinking that EC means pee goes in the potty! Gingerbane, for what it's worth, I live in the U.S., and I have always peed my daughter everywhere. She has rarely pooped out of the house, but the couple of times she pooped on the ground, I just scooped it and tossed it in a trash can. If it's ok for dogs, it's ok for babies--and that applies to poop as well as pee in my book. And I pee her behind a bush at the playground pretty much every time we're there. People don't look at me funny...or, well, if they do, I don't notice it. But there is a sneaky part of me that wishes we lived in China. (We almost moved there--DH had a job but the visa fell through at the last minute--and I think about it every time I pee DD in public behind a bush or something.)

And sgmom, I'm so glad you started this thread! But really, hang in there...like I said, I was totally where you are when DD was 12 months, and then things just started clicking and misses suddenly became much more rare. Not to go off too much on practical things when we're having such a great philosophical discussion , but do you use timing much? Or do you try to wait for your LO to signal? Because letting myself make that switch to taking more initiative and taking DD potty after it had been an hour--even though she hadn't signaled--is what got our misses down. Like I said, I felt--still sometimes feel--sort of like I was cheating on the whole mystical EC thing and how it's "supposed" to be. I actually literally went out and bought a watch solely for the purpose of EC, and I take DD potty by the clock. Even if she says she doesn't need to go, I usually will try to convince her by offering a different location or giving her a fun toy to hold or something like that. If she still insists that she doesn't need to go, I don't force it, and I take her again in a few minutes. And of course I take her every time she signals (she actually says "potty" now, which is so sweet!). But I never wait for her to signal any more. I figure I'd rather keep her dry than be a mystical perfect EC mom who "just knows." I am not that good at EC. My clock tells me when DD needs to go. But hey, it works, and like I said, I respect her if she tells me she doesn't need to go.

On another completely side note, using the clock makes it easy for babysitters, too--my mom is great at EC'ing DD now, because I can tell her exactly what time she should take her pee.

Ok, sorry, please return to your regularly scheduled philosophical and cultural discussion!
post #23 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisavark View Post
And sgmom, I'm so glad you started this thread! But really, hang in there...like I said, I was totally where you are when DD was 12 months, and then things just started clicking and misses suddenly became much more rare. Not to go off too much on practical things when we're having such a great philosophical discussion , but do you use timing much? Or do you try to wait for your LO to signal? Because letting myself make that switch to taking more initiative and taking DD potty after it had been an hour--even though she hadn't signaled--is what got our misses down. Like I said, I felt--still sometimes feel--sort of like I was cheating on the whole mystical EC thing and how it's "supposed" to be. I actually literally went out and bought a watch solely for the purpose of EC, and I take DD potty by the clock. Even if she says she doesn't need to go, I usually will try to convince her by offering a different location or giving her a fun toy to hold or something like that. If she still insists that she doesn't need to go, I don't force it, and I take her again in a few minutes. And of course I take her every time she signals (she actually says "potty" now, which is so sweet!). But I never wait for her to signal any more. I figure I'd rather keep her dry than be a mystical perfect EC mom who "just knows." I am not that good at EC. My clock tells me when DD needs to go. But hey, it works, and like I said, I respect her if she tells me she doesn't need to go.
I'm going to go off thread for a minute to answer this question. This is sort of why I'm so interested in how it used to be done (and why it's taking so long for me).

She doesn't have ANY obvious signals, so we use the clock. I even have a timer that I keep on my fridge. It's set to 30 minutes (but I change that often), but often if I look over and see that there's 10 minutes left, I'll offer the potty anyway. I also offer at every diaper change (even if she's wet), immediately upon waking, before and/or after meals, before/after a bath, before bed, when I need to use the bathroom, etc.

I decided to back WAY off and tried just letting her get wet to see if she would come to me and complain in hopes that she would learn that potty = dry. It didn't work, so now we're back to the clock (I also take her to the bathroom with me EVERY time I need to use it).

We have horrible luck with bowel movements (haven't caught one in I don't even know how long... months, I think), but I'll catch one or two pees a day (more if I'm lucky). That said, I'll also go through 18 or so cloth diapers in a day, so the misses HUGELY outweigh the catches.

Today I decided to have a diaper free day to see what might happen. It was eye opening to say the least! As it turned out, I had to diaper her for bits here and there (because I was too preoccupied to follow her around), but the diaperless moments were interesting.

She pee'd on me once (something she's NEVER done and I often carry her around without a diaper, sometimes for long periods of time), she pee'd on the floor several times, in the potty twice (the rest was in her diaper or on the floor) , but the interesting part was the last pee. She was standing at the top of the stairs (baby gate) and I noticed a couple drops underneath her. I thought it was just drool, but then she moved and I noticed another couple drops, and her mouth was dry. So I put her on the potty and she pee'd IMMEDIATELY. I'm talking seconds. 3 or 4.

We used to have many, MANY more catches than we do now, but obviously something is working. The problem with watching the clock is that sometimes she'll pee 3-4 times in half an hour, and other times she seems to wait closer to an hour. Without being able to read pre-pee body signals, there is NO way to know when she needs to go.

And if I sit her on the potty on the hour (or half hour), she's more likely NOT to pee, or end up with an already wet diaper. Most (if not all) of my catches come from sheer timing (she's been dry for 43 minutes, I should put her on). And even at that, she won't pee on cue ("pssssss", or if I tell her "go pee"), nor will she pee as soon as I sit her down. There's almost always a waiting game that EASILY lasts 5-10 minutes.

Color me frustrated!

Edited to add: I would be THRILLED if I could keep her dry all day (timing), even if she doesn't signal to me that she needs to go (although that would be nice!!), and I can't figure out why we're not further ahead. Or for that matter, why it seems we've taken SO many steps backwards!
post #24 of 72
have you tried keeping a log? writing down every time she nurses, eats, pees and poos? also sleep times. for babies who eat and nurse and sleep on demand (don't know for sure if yours does, just guessing here), timing can be trickier if you just look at the clock. but if you make a log you might start to notice patterns - like 30 minutes after waking up (even if that can sometimes be 6am and sometimes be 9:30am), an hour after eating, 15 minutes after nursing, etc. i found that to be more productive during periods of time when we didn't have much of a regular schedule as far as when we woke, ate, nursed, napped. there might be patterns that you're not noticing because they're not consistent with the time on the clock.

my DS was the timing king. my girls have been better at signaling so i didn't rely on that nearly as much, and thus haven't really paid enough attention to notice if they have a discernable pattern or not. but DS didn't signal at all until he was at least 18-20 months old, when he could verbally tell me he had to go. prior to that i knew that, for instance, he'd pee when he woke up, then 30 minutes later, then 45 minutes after that, an hour after that. if we were still awake 1.5 hours after that, i'd potty him - or else right before his nap (sometimes he went, sometimes not). in the afternoon it was more spread out, he'd go 1-1.5 hours between pees, sometimes 2 hours in the late afternoon/early evening. but it all depended on what time he woke up, whether he took one nap or two, and how long the naps were, and how frequently he ate and drank and nursed, and in what volume. but once i figured out the patterns, we were dry more often than not.
post #25 of 72
Thread Starter 
I've been meaning to chart her patterns again since I haven't done it in a month or two, but when I did chart, I could never find a pattern. One day would differ drastically from the next.

We had problems with breastfeeding so she's been formula fed since about 10 months. (every 3-4 hours, plus meals - whatever we're eating. Chicken, veggies, etc. Never purees).

I am definitely going to chart again soon though. I didn't think of it or I would have done it yesterday.
post #26 of 72
Quote:
I also take her to the bathroom with me EVERY time I need to use it).
Yep, I read about that on Tribalbaby and itworks 3 out of 4 timeS!

Even sometimes it seems he just pees a bit, "for me" ;-), he also seems to grab his ear (I tap twice on ear for pee, tap twice on nose for poo) and he waves , as we wave goodbye to his pee in the toilet :-)

But, he also pees on me, like 2 times today, I DID not see it coming!
And he peed on the floor 3 times, and 2 in diaper.

Anyway, it is interesting, also if the shaming is important or not??
post #27 of 72
Hmm...sgmom, I second pixiepunk's suggestion: chart again, and make sure you include food, too. I hate to say this (especially since I have never been wiling to go through the effort to figure it out myself even though I know we have issues with this too!), but some of that could be food-related. Peeing multiple times in a half hour is pretty unusual for an EC'd one year old, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). It's pretty normal for a non-EC'd baby, since they often just kind of let it dribble out continuously and don't get it all out at once, but for an EC baby, it could be some kind of food reaction. There's a yahoo group called foodlab that was started by some EC folks to figure out things like that. I don't go there 'cuz I'm too scared to try any kind of elimination diet, but I've heard it's really helpful! Or even without eliminating foods, you might be able to find a pattern of when her misses are more frequent in relation to certain foods. Dairy and citrus are some of the foods that are associated with frequent pees.

I would also encourage you to keep trying the diaper-free days, even though they're messy! It took a couple of messy days like that for me to figure out my DD's timing.

I think that's hilarious that you have a timer for EC, especially since I bought my watch for EC...!
post #28 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
nor will she pee as soon as I sit her down. There's almost always a waiting game that EASILY lasts 5-10 minutes.
that seems like a long time. i only put DD on for a minute or 2--if she doesn't go, i try again later.
post #29 of 72
Thread Starter 

Update.

Charting is going fairly well! I cut out ALL liquids, except for what she gets in her formula to create a more accurate chart. There's no distinctive pattern, but there is a definite timeline as to how often she goes (every 45-90 minutes, closer to 20 after eating). Solid food doesn't seem to alter this.

However, we're not having any more catches than we were, and if anything, we're having more misses. I just don't understand. She used to pee in her potty several times per day (albeit sometimes it was because she would sit there for long periods at a time), but now I'm lucky if I catch one pee. And forget about poops... She WILL NOT poop in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by majormajor View Post
that seems like a long time. i only put DD on for a minute or 2--if she doesn't go, i try again later.
She sits on the potty every hour or so, every day, for the last 8 or so months, and I think I can count the number of times she's pee'd within the first minute (or two) of sitting.

It's a horrible feeling. Some days I feel like things are good, and she'll get it eventually (or maybe she's already getting it), and other days I feel like a COMPLETE failure.
post #30 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by rissierae View Post
Ok, I'm going to just jump in here. This is a really good thread, I like what everyone has said. It's all very thought provoking and informative.

All I have to offer is my experience with my one ds. We used diapers as little as possible from day one, and never have used 'sposies. We stopped using diapers at home between 4-5 months, and stopped using them altogether at 9 months. We really haven't gone back to them. In part, I think, because diapers are just a pain in my ass. It is so much easier to offer the potty without using diapers, all I have to do is pull his pants down, and then up- we can do it anywhere. My ds is now 15 months and we still have pee misses, maybe twice a week or something, but it's no big deal. He tells us he has to go about half the time (using the american sign language symbol for toilet), and the other half of the time we just offer him the potty when we think of it. All kids are different and will "develop" at different rates; but IMO, ditch the diapers, even if you end up wiping the pee off of the floor 5 times a day. That is one of the biggest differences I see between our society (whether we EC or not), and other cultures.

We've been ECing in a fairly lazy way since DS was two weeks old. He's about to turn one. Since starting solids we have almost never had poopy diapers, but we miss the pees pretty frequently. I know we could do better with that by offering more regularly & frequently. This thread, and the above post have inspired me to just ditch the diapers at home. We'll start on his birthday tomorrow!
post #31 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
It's a horrible feeling. Some days I feel like things are good, and she'll get it eventually (or maybe she's already getting it), and other days I feel like a COMPLETE failure.
have you thought about a break? 5-10 minutes on the potty every hour sounds like a lot to me, for too little reward. maybe your DD's just not that into it? i think potty habits are SO personality based, and some kids just don't care... just a thought!
post #32 of 72
Thread Starter 
Actually, we're just (slowly) coming off from a 1.5 month break. We'll get it figured out eventually! The hardest part is the no pressure. None. Nada. There are times when I have to shrug it off and be positive like "No pee? Okay!" and just let it go, just to stop myself from showing frustration. But it'll all come together. I mean she will be trained by the time school starts... right? (kidding)
post #33 of 72
I haven't started EC yet--I first heard of the concept just a month or so before DD was born and wasn't really up for it, and LO isn't due for a couple more months.

However, my DH grew up overseas in the developing world (is that still the right term?). In their culture, babies and children don't even wear clothes until about age 6. And the traditional garments are basically wrap skirts, for both boys and girls. As other people havesaid aout China, there isn't any problem just going when you need to wherever you are outside--and most of daily life takes place outside.

I can only imagine how much simpler that would make the whole process.
post #34 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by notjustmamie View Post
In their culture, babies and children don't even wear clothes until about age 6. And the traditional garments are basically wrap skirts, for both boys and girls. As other people havesaid aout China, there isn't any problem just going when you need to wherever you are outside--and most of daily life takes place outside.

I can only imagine how much simpler that would make the whole process.
Someday I'm going to build a house of all natural materials and have a dirt floor. Seriously.

And then I'll keep all my babies in wrap skirts. What a great idea. And they can just pee on the floor.



I have got to build this house before I'm done having kids...
post #35 of 72
Thread Starter 
I need to re-read this thread, but it seems to have swung to other cultures today, which really has nothing to do with the intended subject of this thread (although interesting!).

And Lisa... LOL!!! Love it!!
post #36 of 72
I think a lot of what we have to remember is that in "olden times" or other cultures, there wasnt/isnt as much hygiene as we experience here and now. Not that everyone was running around dirty, but the market was outside on the street & houses had area rugs, not wall-to-wall carpeting. I also have a friend who has gone to China twice w/ her parents to bring home baby sisters and she said that many public play places were nasty b/c kids could just pee and poop there. Not like outdoors at a park, but inside, like mall play places. She said she saw lots of little kids in split-crotch pants & they would literally pop a squat in the middle of the sidewalk. Im sure this is not everyone's experience, but wherever she was, no thanks, I dont want to live there.

In older, older days (like, turn of last century), people, in general, smelled worse b/c of no deodorant, infrequent baths, kids peeing themselves, etc etc. Kids often played together w/ out adult supervision at really young ages, so a one-yr-old would be off playing w/ siblings w/out mom or dad. They may have even been watched by their 2 or 3 yr old sibling, so 2 WAS a big kid & expected to act like it.

I know in our house, the biggest reason we keep dd in diapers is b/c almost all of our rooms have wall-to-wall carpeting. We also have couches that dd is always allowed to sit on. Well, once pee gets down into the stuffing or padding, forget it. If our floors were all wood (which Im not interested in, anyway), that might be different, but Im not hunting all over my carpets all day for pee. And if pee got into our couches, thats it b/c our cushions do not come off of the couch. It is majorly different, imo, if dd was 3 or something and had an accident on the couch rather than being 1 & 1/2 and I know she will pee herself at some point & I could have prevented it w/a diaper. Trainers w/out a cover would be okay if I knew she was not going to sit down anywhere. So, for us, "ditch the diapers" is not a reality b/c we could not afford to replace 3 couches and all this carpet.
post #37 of 72
Interesting thread. I don't EC but I saw this from "new posts". Adding to the idea of other cultures ECing - I have a good friend who has two young boys. He's from China. When they had their second child he came to me confused and concerned. He wanted to know how we potty train kids since our homes have carpet. He says in China most homes have tile floors and if the kids pee on the floor you just wipe it up. You potty train by just removing the bottoms. He didn't even know where to start while living in a carpeted apartment.
post #38 of 72
I was giving this topic some more thought the other night & I had some more ideas. I read "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" about two years ago, and it had some info on pottying from the turn of the century (not much, just a bit). The brother and sister were one year apart & when the brother turned one, it said he was potty trained like most other kids his age, and he was sent outside to play all day under the care of his sister (two years old!). The mother cleaned all the apartments in the building, so she did not have time to hang out w/ the toddlers all day. When the kids got older and went to school, the teachers had a barbaric practice of only excusing the richer kids to the restrooms. Then, during recess, bullies would block the access to the restrooms for the other kids. This was probably not too much of a problem for the boys, but it did say that the school kids regularly wet themselves b/c they had no other choice. When one of the aunts found out, she pretended to be the girl's mom and told the teacher that her "daughter" had a kidney problem & needed to be excused when she asked. If the "daughter" were to die, the aunt would blame the teacher, haha! The teacher let the girl use the restroom after that. Later in the book, when another baby was due, the family said they were prepared b/c, among other things, they had 12 diapers for the baby. Yes, TWELVE, that was it.

I can very easily see in a time when 12 diapers was considered plenty why it would not seem to be a big deal to strap an older baby to a potty. If baby were sitting there & mom was doing dishes, sweeping the floor, & singing to the baby, etc, it probably wasnt the most pleasant thing ever for the baby, but probably not too bad. If your other choice was hand-scrubbing a poopy diaper when you had 94857149 other things that had to be done every day, well, I can certainly understand, esp if everyone else were doing it, too. Parents also used to spank their kids a lot more often, then, too. For instance, dd is 17 months and thinks it is funny to run away when I say it is time for potty. She often cries and does not want to sit. Well, in the "olden times", she would get her bum smacked and be sat down. She would quickly realize that you sit and pee or get a smack. She also does not want to wear a diaper and pants, so will kick and throw a fit. Well, dh and I tell her it is not nice & put her clothes on anyway. Again, she would get a smack for that as well and learn to just lay there and get diapered. I would not be surprised if parents used a lot of shaming for pee and poop diapers for older babies, too, & maybe even spankings for pooping. Definitely, certainly not nice at all, but again, if this is how *everyone* were training and you had to hand-scrub all those diapers, well, desperate times..

So, that is how I think they got kids potty trained earlier. Now a days we say if the kid doesnt want to sit, no big deal, put on a new diaper. We also have washing machines, disposable diapers, and a culture that frowns upon punishing kids in the potty area.
post #39 of 72
Thread Starter 
Twelve diapers... Wow. I should try that one day. Just to see if I can do it. LOL

My massage therapist told me that when he potty trained his kids (he did not do EC), he used to make sure something they really wanted was in their sight. Diaper changes would happen frequently and take a REEEAAAALLLLLLLY long time. The potty however... They sit, pee, they get off, they get the "reward" (ie. toy, or whatever). So they learned VERY quickly that if they wanted that object, peeing in the potty would get it to them faster. Which reminded me of when I started EC with my own child.

Since I'm a certified dog trainer, when I first started EC, my friends used to laugh and joke about how I would apply dog training (housebreaking) rules to potty training my child. And when you think about it, it's really not that different! Dogs sniff in a circle (pick up dog, take it outside!), and babies make a face, or a sound (or whatever "cue" they give), and we pick them up and put them on a potty.

That totally made me laugh.
post #40 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rissierae View Post
All I have to offer is my experience with my one ds. We used diapers as little as possible from day one, and never have used 'sposies. We stopped using diapers at home between 4-5 months, and stopped using them altogether at 9 months. We really haven't gone back to them. In part, I think, because diapers are just a pain in my ass. It is so much easier to offer the potty without using diapers, all I have to do is pull his pants down, and then up- we can do it anywhere. My ds is now 15 months and we still have pee misses, maybe twice a week or something, but it's no big deal. He tells us he has to go about half the time (using the american sign language symbol for toilet), and the other half of the time we just offer him the potty when we think of it. All kids are different and will "develop" at different rates; but IMO, ditch the diapers, even if you end up wiping the pee off of the floor 5 times a day. That is one of the biggest differences I see between our society (whether we EC or not), and other cultures.
THIS interests me. I have a hard time believing that it solely depends on the child. My daughter has been using the potty (on a semi-full time basis) since 4.5 months old (12 months now), and any catch we have seems to be sheer coincidence. I honestly don't think she knows what she's supposed to do on the potty. And these days, we're lucky to have ANY catches, even though she sits on it several times throughout the day (and we DID take a break). I must be doing SOMETHING wrong. I understand that misses will happen, but at this point, I expect some catches too...
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