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EC today vs how "it used to be done" - Page 3

post #41 of 72
at the 12 diapers thing. with a newborn i went through 12 diapers before noon! i often think about how people used to live - not only hand-washing all the laundry, diapers included, but making food from scratch over fires and with very primitive cooking tools by today's standards. there just weren't any short cuts for the basics that have to be done everyday, so i can imagine like a pp mentioned, getting your kid toilet trained was something you wanted to do fast and early, as you just didn't have time to deal with it for longer. it likely would inspire less than gentle methods in a lot of cases, i imagine. i certainly appreciate the luxury of allowing the child to lead the way and to feel zero pressure to force things along.

sgmom - i don't think you're doing anything wrong at all. i think that different kids just have different awareness. it's certainly been true just in watching my 3 kids. i'm a very firm believer that the kids that have a harder time with EC are the ones that would have had a really difficult time potty learning at an earlier age. the fact that your LO is familiar with sitting on the potty and has some success there is putting you in a much better place than you would be if you'd been diapering that whole time. i'm sure it's frustrating, but then you read these threads in the Childhood Years forum about 4 year olds who are still in diapers, and have real fears of relaxing and letting go on the toilet and the nightmare time these parents have. and others who "train in a weekend." Some kids are just going to be harder than others no matter how you do it, but keeping some level of awareness is going to make life much easier in the long run, IMO. and i think often these are the kids who don't seem to mind being wet/dirty, and so keeping up the awareness yourself and keeping her clean so she doesn't get used to being in a dirty diaper is really important i think. you're doing a really wonderful thing for your LO, don't let yourself forget that!!
post #42 of 72
Thread Starter 
At the risk of jinxing her new found success, we had a poop catch the day before yesterday (*SHOCK*), no catches at all yesterday, but this morning she woke up fairly dry and we caught EVERYTHING (including a poop) right from the time she woke up (7-ish) until almost noon (then nothing but misses since then). Normally I wouldn't be surprised as most catches come from her sitting on the potty for long periods of time, but all catches happened in UNDER A MINUTE (I'd say closer to 30 seconds!) from the time her butt hit the seat.

I've changed my strategy though, and I wonder if it's helped. When she wets a diaper, I used to get excited and tell her what she did. "You pee'd! Peepee! Peepee goes in the potty... POTTY *make sign, sit on potty*", etc. But over the last few days (or week, maybe), all diaper changes have been very, very boring. "Uh oh. Peepee." Change the diaper, and be done. And that first catch in the potty (first one in I don't even know how long) was EXCITING (and it was a poop, at that). And OH MY GOODNESS, did she ever react to the NEXT catch.

It's not how it used to be done, but I'm hoping it takes us a step ahead.
post #43 of 72
Woo-hoo!!!! I am SO excited you found something that's working for your little one! I agree, you should be having some catches at this point, and it was really confusing to me that all your "catches" involved sitting on the potty for several minutes. Because--I only have one DD--but to me, that is not at all what I would expect after EC'ing from such a young age. Anyway, but it sounds like your DD DOES get it...she just needed a little more motivation. LOL!

Meanwhile, your question seems to have stumped my yahoo group too, because I had *no* replies. Haha! Just goes to show you...I do think a lot of us EC'ers can be pretty adamant in our expectations of how EC ought to work. When in reality there's a huge range of normal, just like with everything else.
post #44 of 72
Thread Starter 
I still don't think she gets it, but I do think she's getting it. We haven't had a catch since that day, but at least it was a step ahead!
post #45 of 72
Laxative advertisements from that era indicate that one use is to help children avoid punishment. With an angry father holding a shoe while nice mom steps in with the marvelous medicine.

So....

yeah...

not EC.

10000000000% not EC.
post #46 of 72
Great question.
With ds2, we have been relatively successful. By that I mean, he was out of diapers at about 10m. He rarely missed going out, or at night. Now at 18m, ive put a cloth diaper back on at night, because half the nights he was peeing, and I got sick of washing. He’s peeing less now.

Incidentally, I don’t have a washing machine.

I never get a miss while wearing him
Most misses are while im on the computer ;-)


The first thought that comes to mind, when you ask, what is the difference between now and in the past, is this-we are less comfortable with pee nowadays we have higher standards of hygeine.

I think that’s the bottom line.

Im pretty sure that back then they had their misses and strikes like us (though, they didn’t have computers or tv, mmm, maybe that’s it)

Also, they probably had more pee friendly places, like grass, and dirt, so it was just easier to pee a baby.

They had pee friendly products like highchairs with potties in them (great idea…my kids sometimes use a potty as a chair…people nowadays find that repugnant, and ds1(4) got in trouble yesterday for peeing in a plant instead of a toilet…the teacher could hardly believe such a thing could exist…peeing in a plant)

There was more cultural acceptance for dirt in general. They had dirtier clothes. They just didn’t have the money or technology to spend on having things ‘pristine’ like we do nowadays. People nowadays spend a fortune on washing machines and dryers. That’s just a reflection of the high standards that we have nowadays.

Cruel methods of discipline had something to do with it too no doubt. But I practise gentle disicpline myself and still ds2 has been out of diapers since 10m. (plenty of misses too, so I just change the clothes)

So I would say in sum, that different standards of hygeine(not lower or worse though), different cultural expections, different lifestyles, and different techologies all made it possible for children to be out of diapers. (what were children’s clothes really like? Do we know?)

Also, I found putting on diapers, whether cloth or disposable, encourgaged my kids to pee in them. That is why I ditched them early on, and replaced them with one wets, or training pants, or nothing at all. Why encourage a child to pee in his pants by putting a diaper on? If it’s a matter of convenience, then there is a price to be paid for it. But it’s a personal decision. Perhaps is depends on the child too, I can only talk about my own.

Also, like you, I have often wondered why I bother. It can create a lot of work. But most days, it’s a routine that works. I look at other kids in their diapers, and I kind of feel sorry for them. Mine are free to roam without diapers, and I know they wont pee (cos he just peed)

As for signals,…sure my kids signalled, often times too late though. I would NEVER rely uniquely on signals (except whilst wearing the baby). I believe that’s a bit of a myth.
Mostly I just use routine-there are times I put him on the potty, and I just do it. (before going out, coming home, waking up, before bed, when I think of it, when its convenient)Sometimes intuition, and less often, signals.
post #47 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactmaya View Post
As for signals,…sure my kids signalled, often times too late though. I would NEVER rely uniquely on signals (except whilst wearing the baby). I believe that’s a bit of a myth.
Mostly I just use routine-there are times I put him on the potty, and I just do it. (before going out, coming home, waking up, before bed, when I think of it, when its convenient)Sometimes intuition, and less often, signals.
Aside from watching the cloch, this is sort of how I've been doing it. Via routine, and not via signals. Perhaps I've confused her by offering too much?

This reminds me of a lady I spoke with who had all her children trained (no misses) by 16 months. When I asked her how she did it, she said I put them on every time I pee'd, first thing in the morning, and before and after the bath. That was it. She never did EC, and started training them all at 14 months. At 16 months they were out of diapers, and misses (or accidents as she called it) almost never happened (she said it was less than a handful past 16 months).

Interesting!
post #48 of 72
sgmom, that depends on the child. That was more or less how I did my kid, but we had misses after 16 months, because she would refuse. Temperament plays a huge role, as does genetics, just like with late potty training.
post #49 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
This reminds me of a lady I spoke with who had all her children trained (no misses) by 16 months. When I asked her how she did it, she said I put them on every time I pee'd, first thing in the morning, and before and after the bath. That was it. She never did EC, and started training them all at 14 months. At 16 months they were out of diapers, and misses (or accidents as she called it) almost never happened (she said it was less than a handful past 16 months).

Interesting!
But see, I would argue that this IS ec. And I'd also argue that for me (and others who tend to be perfectionists about things) this could be a better way of doing ec than trying to go diaperless.
post #50 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlyle View Post
But see, I would argue that this IS ec. And I'd also argue that for me (and others who tend to be perfectionists about things) this could be a better way of doing ec than trying to go diaperless.
But then how would you differentiate EC from potty training, when starting at an age where they can understand the sensation or having to eliminate, the ability to hold it, tell you they need to go, and knowing (learning) where to release it?
post #51 of 72
I would imagine there are some people who start "potty training" at a later age and it is no different from how people do EC. Just late starting!

I know a woman in her 80's who tells me that her daughter started walking at 9 months, and she potty trained herself right after that because she didn't like being wet. My guess (I haven't had a lengthy discussion with her about it) is that her daughter showed that she was uncomfortable, and the woman responded. I doubt that at 9 months she was "potty trained" but that's when they started.
post #52 of 72
IMO a lot of times with late-starters it's a matter of intent that makes the differentiation between EC and potty training. For me, EC is a state of mind. it's an extension of the way i parent - gently and respectfully.

one of the things that i think is interesting is how different each kid is. like contactmaya mentioned that putting a diaper on encouraged her baby to go in the diaper, in her experience. interestingly, i had that experience with my older two (but i started late with them) and diapers were very counter-productive to the EC process. but my youngest *hates* peeing in a diaper or trainer, and has always signalled more adamantly and clearly when she was diapered than when naked or when wearing undies. So for us, diapers have been a huge help in staying dry. though as she is getting bigger (now 17 months) and getting much better in general about telling us when she needs to go, we are doing trainers less and less.

i'm really enjoying this discussion. maybe we should have it added to the sticky list, i think it could be very helpful for people.
post #53 of 72
I think that you can PL a toddler in an EC way. I did that with my son. I paid attention to his timing, his signals, etc., and offered opportunities to go. The difference is that they have to relearn control of the muscles, which they lost when they were infants since they were not responded to. I think this can be relearned at any age, but because a 2yo is verbal (presumably), they can understand a lot more about what you actually want them to do.

I think this debate is a little bit of the reason that so many people here say "potty learning" rather than "potty training", although I think if your intent is the same, the terminology doesn't matter much.
post #54 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoMommy View Post
I think if your intent is the same, the terminology doesn't matter much.
This is what I'm getting at. For me, ec is about being open to hearing your babies/toddlers/kids if they're telling you they need to go. It's recognizing that they have awareness of their elimination (and an ability to learn to hold it) from birth--whether or not they care where it goes is another matter.

So in my mind, a mom who is giving her kids an opportunity to use the potty, and has an awareness that the kids may be telling her that they need to go is "doing ec," even if she's using diapers and not focusing on it super-much. If the baby really cares, it will tell her. She trusts that and relaxes into it--she keeps her end of the communication up by offering...saying "hey, when you're ready, this is an option and I'm willing to help," and being open to hearing if her kid really wants to use the potty, but not worrying about catches/misses/where the pee goes on an hourly basis if the kid isn't fussing about it.

Does that help clarify what I'm trying to say? It's hard to explain
post #55 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgmom View Post
But then how would you differentiate EC from potty training, when starting at an age where they can understand the sensation or having to eliminate, the ability to hold it, tell you they need to go, and knowing (learning) where to release it?
I think that EC by definition includes the belief (the knowledge actually) that babies understand the sensation and have the ability to hold it and tell you they need to go <i>from birth</i>.
post #56 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limabean1975 View Post
I think that EC by definition includes the belief (the knowledge actually) that babies understand the sensation and have the ability to hold it and tell you they need to go <i>from birth</i>.
Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say!
post #57 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlyle View Post
She trusts that and relaxes into it--she keeps her end of the communication up by offering...saying "hey, when you're ready, this is an option and I'm willing to help," and being open to hearing if her kid really wants to use the potty...
And there's another thing that separates EC from PL. I'm seeing it less, but for awhile it seemed like there was a strong feeling among PLers that any form of offering the potty was "pressure". And I mean like someone talked about not being sure if it was okay to say "you'll use the toilet someday when you're ready" to their kid when the kid was in the bathroom watching mom.

And I wish to goodness I knew where I saw that...

But like I said, I'm not seeing that any more. We're getting more parent to child communication in general PLing circles. In part, I suspect because there are more people who tried out EC. Like they diaper DC1, then try EC for DC2, but end up sticking with aware-diapering since it's what they know.
post #58 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Limabean1975 View Post
I think that EC by definition includes the belief (the knowledge actually) that babies understand the sensation and have the ability to hold it and tell you they need to go <i>from birth</i>.
We started EC at 4.5 months, but we NEVER got the C part down. I've always kind of struggled if EC WAS what we did or not, because of the lack of communication. I went STRICTLY by the clock, and whether or not she was still dry.

We had a fair amount of catches for the first few months, but up until last week, we were lucky to have ANY catches. But now at almost 13 months, and completely out of the blue, she started signing "potty". Or if I ask her if she needs to use the potty, she'll seek it out, then go sit on it all by herself (no elimination). So far, I've been lucky enough to catch her first pee/poop of the morning in the last 2 days, so I'm hoping something is finally (FINALLY!!) starting to click. She knows what it is! Now to teach her that she has control of how to use it.
post #59 of 72
I wonder if there was more nakey time "back in the day" or if that's always been different family to family. I hardly ever (actually, never) see naked babies (other than my own!) in public, and it seems to me like I remember seeing naked babies when I was little.
post #60 of 72
Thread Starter 
Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing naked kids running around ALL the time at local beaches and whatnot when I was a kid. I can't remember if I was one of them or not though! That said, my mom told me the other day that I was completely out of diapers by 19 months, so it's entirely possible. And my mom is as far as you can possibly get from using negative reinforcement on a child (so there would have NEVER been scolding for misses).
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