Math question for 4th grader

[Shirada]

I have a similar question to this asked by darcytrue but regarding my 9DD.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1137097

We are new to HSing, (2 weeks) and she was in PS K-3. She was out of school for 3 months and we did no "school." Fast forward to the past 2 weeks and she is totally switching off for math. She was top of her class in math and seems to understand most concepts, (with some gaps), but absolutely HATES it and therefore cannot concentrate. All we have been doing till now is review so there really is nothing new that is being presented to her. She is getting increasingly stubborn and is basically refusing to do any math, (she is pretty negative about anything we do). I get it that she does not like worksheets, so I was giving her some MEP math today since it looks more fun. She desperately wanted to HS and since I am still getting into the groove and winging it, I know it has not been the greatest experience yet, (but this is only the first 2 weeks).

Naturally since she was so upset, I told her she didn't have to do math for the rest of the week. I asked her what she wanted to do and she said "cleaning pennies" so that is what she is doing and I turned it into a science experiment which she seems enthusiastic about.

Sorry for going on, but I guess my question is what do I do with a 4th grader who refuses to do math? I feel that she is past math games and will not learn much that way, given the material she is supposed to be learning this year.

Thank you

[LilyGrace]

We did 4th grade math last year following MUS. We still played a LOT of math games! Have you seen this site - Education.com? It's full of activity ideas that make math fun.

When we started homeschooling, I made the mistake of buying a popular curriculum when I felt it was time to buckle down. It was a bad idea. It was a poor fit for my son and turned him off math for a while. So when we started a new curriculum, one that he helped pick out and fit him better than the old one, I started him back a level. Sure, he knew most of the material. That was the point. I wanted him to feel good about his math skills again and gain that confidence. The combination between a good fit and the ability to skip what he didn't want to do/felt was too easy (he just tested out of those lessons without doing them) made all the difference in the world.

[Shirada]

LilyGrace, that is encouraging, because I have ordered MUS and in a lower level for that very reason, (Gamma). I am hoping that once it arrives that things will improve. I am not convinced however because just now we were making pretzels and she had an "I can't do it" attitude with just rolling out the dough and got discouraged very easily and pouty and refused to roll for a while. She is a lot of work and I am doubting that I can do this with her. All my worst fears are coming true with her. I was hoping HS would turn her attitude around. Maybe I am the problem.

[AAK]

I think she may be trying to see just how far she can push you. I have a fourth grader too and we are still fairly new to homeschooling (pulled her out last January). For us, the trick has been to include her in the planning without letter her push me aside and take over. My dd knows that homeschooling will only work if it works for all three of us (mom, dad, and her). We have a list of expectations (in regards to learning). She helped make that list and she helped select materials. Right now, I have just switched from my schedule (I like schedules) to a more laid back approach. Anna knows she needs to be able to do x, y, and z each week as a minimum. She also knows that Tues/Thurs morning are the best times for one on one lessons. I give her a checklist for the week and a suggested daily checklist. She likes having control over her day. We also included subjects like cooking/shop/crafts/sewing & typing & Spanish because she wanted them. Daily logic puzzles are tons of fun for her and if she gets her work done, she gets to pick a game or activity to do with me.

Amy

[Eli&SkyesMom]

For some funner, hands on Math stuff, you might also want to try the book Family Math. It has some good math games that are for kids a little older. With my 3rd grade son what I try to do is rotate our math throughout the week. We do some online math games, mathart, worksheets, manipulatives, and math games. I think the variety helps. I also have Living Math that we are slowly working through, which brings in the history of math and helps us to see why math is important. You can also incorporate math into other areas like cooking/baking, or shopping. Last year we did a unit study on insects, during which my son did a poll, he asked every person he saw for about a week what there fav. insect was. When he finished he compiled his data into a bar graph and a pie graph, and did some simple math ti figure out how many mor people preferred the most popular bug over the least, that sort of thing. It was fun for him and hands on. Just some ideas.
HTH!!!

[Shirada]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will take a look at Family Math. I have tried encouraging her to do some kind of poll about something she is interested in, but she is always so negative.
What is math art? I actually know the Living Math creator and had never even thought of asking her for advice. Thanks for the reminder

[Eli&SkyesMom]

I found a used copy of a Scholastic book titled MathART Projects and Activities it has, "dozens of creative projects to explore math concepts and build essential skills" it is by Carolyn Ford Brunetto. It is for grades 3-5. My son has had fun with the couple of things we've done so far. One thing we did was to make a Math Wanted poster. It's a little silly but DS had a good time.

[Eli&SkyesMom]

Oh yeah, another book I recently found is The I Hate Mathematics! Book It's a little older, copyright is 1975, but it looks like it will be fun. We haven't done any of the things out of it yet, but it has some neat math tricks, games and projects in it. It might work for your DD since she claims to not like math. Good luck to you, and cograts on your decision to homeschool!!! Let us know how things work out, and if she comes around to math.

[Lillian J]

You might get some inspiration from David Albert's article, A Travel Excursion of the MInd, from his book Homeschooling and the Voyage of Self-Discovery.

And she can explore some interesting websites about math in other times and cultures - that can be pretty fascinating - such as Ancient Egyptian Number Hieroglyphics.

The I Hate Mathematics Book that Eli&Skye'sMom mentioned is a great one to get for her - lots of fun activities - and Family Math has done wonders for lots of people. And also Math For Smarty Pants! One reviewer in the Amazon site said of that one "I use it with 3rd and 4th graders who regularly ask their parents to buy it for them. They actually ask for a math book - go figure!"

On a side note, I personally have a hard time embracing the concept of a child being stubborn because she's resisting something she hates. I don't know what else to call it, but I feel it's a little different from that - I think it's just a natural reaction. Maybe it could be called assertive? I don't know - I just think there's more to it.

But anyway - back to the topic of making math enjoyable . You might try Count On! - a fabulous math website. MathCats is another fun one.

And here's a great page of annotated suggestions for interesting books for children about math - Hoagies Hot Topics Reading List - Reading List for Mathematics. It lists things such as The Grapes of Math: Mind Stretching Math Riddles by Greg Tang.

You mentioned there were certain things she's supposed to learn this year, but I really wouldn't worry about meeting a schedule so much as getting off the track she's on right now and exploring math with her in fun ways for both of you - that's what can help her discover that there's a lot more to math than what she's encountered in the math texts or workbooks.

Have fun! - Lillian

[LilyGrace]

Originally Posted by Eli&SkyesMom

Oh yeah, another book I recently found is The I Hate Mathematics! Book It's a little older, copyright is 1975, but it looks like it will be fun. We haven't done any of the things out of it yet, but it has some neat math tricks, games and projects in it. It might work for your DD since she claims to not like math. Good luck to you, and cograts on your decision to homeschool!!! Let us know how things work out, and if she comes around to math.

Oh! This is a great book! It was our bathroom/backseat book for a while. I strew, I admit it. When I find something interesting I leave it in areas where there will be a captive audience so they can pick it up, too.

There's a LOT of great activities in there! Don't be surprised if your dd tells you she'll wash dishes for a month after reading it.

[caefi]

cleaning pennies can be math, too.

stack them in piles of ten and count - multiplying by 10s (or 5s or whichever number of pennies you put into the pile).


I just tell my kids that there are some things you don't have a choice about studying, math is one of them. State law says you have to study math. They don't want to break the law. we use MUS by 4th grade. My 4th grader complains, but she complains about most things, so it's no surprise.

[Shirada]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I have requested 4 of the books from the library and fingers crossed she won't turn up her nose at them

She is actually resistant to almost everything I suggest and really does not want to do anything.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Shirada

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I have requested 4 of the books from the library and fingers crossed she won't turn up her nose at them

She is actually resistant to almost everything I suggest and really does not want to do anything.

Sounds like a good time to be as casually cheerful as possible about bringing them up - although you know her infinitely better than any of us, so you probably already have ideas about how to proceed. Good luck! I hope she has some fun with math.

Lillian

[Shirada]

As I expected, my daughter refuses to have anything to do with the "I Hate Mathemathics" book or "Math for Smarty Pants." I joked with her when I gave her the first book, and then left is lying around. She won't open either of them. She knows what I am doing. On the other hand, we have had some success these past two days with writing. She dictates what she want to write about and I type it on the computer with her next to me. I am still waiting on the Family Math book and the MUS curriculum.

[AAK]

Can you do some real life math with her? Does she like to build or sew? Lately my dd wants to start a business. She made a really cool bag out of the colored duct tape. Now she wants to make and sell some. I told her she first needed to figure out what it costs her to make each bag. She sat right down and started trying to figure it out. It took her a while, then we got to discuss how she could use the math she knows to make that problem easier and how we could create an equation so that she could easily figure out the differences between a plain red bag and one made from tie dye tape. Or one that is red with the tie dye trim. It was a very useful math lesson and also illustrated the need to know how to work with decimals, fractions, and percents (I told her to assume 10% waste).

Amy

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by Shirada

As I expected, my daughter refuses to have anything to do with the "I Hate Mathemathics" book or "Math for Smarty Pants." I joked with her when I gave her the first book, and then left is lying around. She won't open either of them. She knows what I am doing. On the other hand, we have had some success these past two days with writing. She dictates what she want to write about and I type it on the computer with her next to me. I am still waiting on the Family Math book and the MUS curriculum.

If she's bright and good at math, then I can completely understand why she was bored during review.

My experience with math is that you can really cover a lot of material very quickly (compared to schools) when you finally sit down and do it. And then, when the child is paying attention and is ready to learn, it's very quick and easy and really doesn't take much effort from either of you. Plus, the curriculum is set up on a spiral- taking last year's concepts, reviewing them and building on them, that you can usually catch up pretty quickly and easily even if you skip a whole year, just by spending a little more time on the "review" sections.

We used to do a week's worth of math in about an hour- by going through the textbook, discussing hte concept, maybe do one or two problems, and if she had the concept, we'd just move on. We'd rarely actually do math once a week. More often we'd skip it for a month and then do a month's worth in one week, forget it again for a while, do some more one day, etc.

This year, DD2 is back in school (her choice.) We never did much math when she was home. Right now she's in Algebra (9th grade math/8th grade honors) after effectively skipping 8th and most of 7th grade math. She's still doing fine in the class, although she had to work harder than her classmates when the teacher was "reviewing" material that DD was learning for the first time.

I honestly think your DD will be fine if you dont' do any math for the next 4 months, or until whenever she's ready to do it again. She's bright, so she'll be able to learn it quickly when she's ready. If you try to force it before then, it will just be frustrating and waste both of your time.

As far as "telling the state you're teaching her math"- if your state required some kind of paperwork from you, there are ways to phrase things that satisfy the state's requirements without lying about what you do with your child. Do you take her shopping and talk about unit prices/which package is cheaper? Do you bake with her and measure ingredients? Does she get an allowance and spend her own money? Does she play any kind of logic puzzles in a puzzle book or on a computer? She's "doing math."!

[shoefairy3]

we like a lot of the books on the reader list here http://www.livingmath.net/Default.aspx

[mich]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

I honestly think your DD will be fine if you dont' do any math for the next 4 months, or until whenever she's ready to do it again. She's bright, so she'll be able to learn it quickly when she's ready. If you try to force it before then, it will just be frustrating and waste both of your time.

!

I agree. If there are other areas of homeschooling that you guys are having fun in, just do that for now. Skip the math all together for a while. It will take time for your dd to lose the bad taste she has developed for math. When she is ready you can cover huge chunks of math in very little time, and because she is ready she will actually retain the info.

I would also suggest to just put the MUS in storage when it arrives. Don't even try it. In her current state in will just attach a negative emotion to the program. Save it for when she is ready. We love MUS, and 4 or 6 months from now, you both may love it too.