Was curious about the Amish...

[Juvysen]

So, I was sitting here thinking about vaccinating vs. not... and was then wondering what the rates of childhood death from infectious disease was amongst the Amish who (presumably? I may be incorrect) may not vaccinate or subscribe to other modern medical practices...

I found this: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ract/139/2/173

Despite a higher prevalence of several risk factors for perinatal and infant death among the Amish, neonatal and infant death rates for Geauga Settlement Amish have been very similar to the corresponding rates for white children in rural Ohio and the state as a whole.

So, uh... I wish I had access to the rest of this article, but that seems... strange to me, if we are to believe that vaccination (and other modern medical practices) are necessary to keep our kids from dying. Thoughts? I guess I wish I knew more about the Amish, too.

[laohaire]

That's a very interesting question. Conversely, I'd like to know if this group has a similar, higher or lower rate of autoimmune disorders, etc.

Of course even if their rates are lower, causation is still unknown, because the population is different in many ways other than lack of vaccination (I too assume but don't know for a fact that they don't vaccinate). Diet, exercise, less exposure to chemicals and even pollutants could explain a lower rate of these diseases of civilization IF there is indeed a lower rate (I'm just speculating here).

[Juvysen]

Agreed. Anyone have some good studies on the health of the Amish? Supposedly they have a lot more genetic problems because of inbreeding, but that's the bulk of what i can find...

[nettlesoup]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Agreed. Anyone have some good studies on the health of the Amish? Supposedly they have a lot more genetic problems because of inbreeding, but that's the bulk of what i can find...

That's what I heard as well. I visited an Amish settlement a couple of years ago, and one thing I noticed was that most of the women wore glasses. It would be interesting to know more about their health.

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by nettlesoup

That's what I heard as well. I visited an Amish settlement a couple of years ago, and one thing I noticed was that most of the women wore glasses. It would be interesting to know more about their health.

Not sure if this is due to genetics. If all the contact-wearing women wore glasses, you'd see a lot of glasses among the "English" population as well.

HEALTH STATUS, HEALTH CONDITIONS, AND HEALTH
BEHAVIORS AMONG AMISH WOMEN

Women’s Health Issues 17 (2007) 162–171

We performed one of the first systematic, population-based surveys of women in Amish culture. We examine(d) health status and health risks in a representative sample of 288 Amish women ages 18–45 living in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, in particular for risks associated with preterm and low birthweight infants, compared with a general population sample of 2,002 women in Central Pennsylvania. Compared with women in the general population, Amish women rated their physical health approximately at the
same level, but reported less stress, fewer symptoms of depression, and had higher aggregate scores for mental health. Amish women reported low levels of intimate partner violence, high levels of social support, and they perceived low levels of unfair treatment owing to gender compared with the general population. Amish women also reported higher fertility, fewer low birthweight babies, but the same number of preterm births as the general population. The
findings suggest that these outcomes may be due to higher levels of social support and better preconceptional behavior among Amish women.

[Juvysen]

yeah that article I posted suggested that more studies should be done on the impact of Amish social structure on their health, speculating that the social structure/support may be what's making up the difference there might have been otherwise. Very interesting.

[nettlesoup]

That's a very good point.

[Minarai]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

yeah that article I posted suggested that more studies should be done on the impact of Amish social structure on their health, speculating that the social structure/support may be what's making up the difference there might have been otherwise. Very interesting.

I'd like that too, but the Amish are a very closed society and they most likely won't allow those kinds of studies to take place. It would draw undue attention to the community and undermine one of the biggest principles behind the Amish culture: isolation from and rejection of mainstream society.

[miriam]

It is more likely that the studies will not be done because the drug companies do not care about vaccine effectiveness and dangerous side effects.

The Amish do not use the chemicals we use in our homes, do not have electricity, do not use medical doctors as much as we do and live a much more natural life.

I would not blame the Amish and their community closeness for the lack of vax/no-vax studies. They are co-operative with the government in other matters. The drug companies have a vested interest in blaming them and other nonvaxers for spreading VPDs and keeping everyone else ignorant of the limits and dangers of vaxing. They need a scape goat and they are not going to let go of it.

Originally Posted by ASusan

Not sure if this is due to genetics. If all the contact-wearing women wore glasses, you'd see a lot of glasses among the "English" population as well.

Yes. Did you know that contact lens solutions contain mercury?

[Ritske]

I'm so glad I only wore contacts for 6 months almost a decade ago... Though I still won't wear glasses.

Originally Posted by miriam

Did you know that contact lens solutions contain mercury?

[SuburbanHippie]

Originally Posted by miriam

Did you know that contact lens solutions contain mercury?

Please say this isn't so!

[carriebft]

I read that thimersol use to be in those solutions but was taken out in the 80s.

[Deborah]

Yes, they discovered that thimerosal had some dangerous side-effects so it was removed from over-the-counter formulations. But it was left in infant vaccines. Go figure!

[ASusan]

Originally Posted by miriam

The Amish do not use the chemicals we use in our homes, do not have electricity, do not use medical doctors as much as we do and live a much more natural life.

I think this is a common misconception - and it varies widely among and within Amish groups. I used to think this, too, until we had our house built by an Amish contractors and workers. They use lots of chemicals, cleaners, drink lots of cr@p beverages, play with noisy plastic toys from Walmart, and many DO have electricity - they are just off the grid (e.g., use Solar panels and 12-volt batteries)...

As just one example, I witnessed a barefoot teenage son applying weed killer with a large sprayer directly to the (very large) driveway and other non-grass areas in their yard. It was clear that this was done on a regular basis.

Many do use medical services, they just don't have insurance. Many do not vaccinate -probably enough for a study - but many do.

[Juvysen]

I thought that is the reason they referred specifically to the Amish in this study as Old Order Amish? Or maybe "old order" refers to something else? I had assumed it meant they were living less "modernized" lives.

You're right, though, it definitely depends on the Amish... some do not avoid the modern world as much as others.

[miriam]

I read that thimersol use to be in those solutions but was taken out in the 80s.

I read a lot of things too. Do you have a link?

My personal experience with medicine is that things that are replaced with something more dangerous .

I think this is a common misconception - and it varies widely among and within Amish groups. I used to think this, too, until we had our house built by an Amish contractors and workers. They use lots of chemicals, cleaners, drink lots of cr@p beverages, play with noisy plastic toys from Walmart, and many DO have electricity - they are just off the grid (e.g., use Solar panels and 12-volt batteries)...

As just one example, I witnessed a barefoot teenage son applying weed killer with a large sprayer directly to the (very large) driveway and other non-grass areas in their yard. It was clear that this was done on a regular basis.

Many do use medical services, they just don't have insurance. Many do not vaccinate -probably enough for a study - but many do.

I said they live a more natural life. They do use medical facilities for emergency care. Insurance is against their communal beliefs...do you think your workers had workman's comp insurance? There are always groups that are less observant or more strict than the main part.

Just because they use these chemicals on the job for the English does not mean they would use it on their own homes. I do not give my own children soda and candy, but I would buy it for someone else's gathering.

[jennlyn]

delete

[EVC]

I only have a few seconds here, so I just wanted to mention quickly--over summer Mothering ran a vax debate article which I FINALLY got around to reading this weekend. One thing that stuck in my mind was that the author mentioned two Christian Science schools where the majority of students are unvax'ed (I think one is elementary-high school, the other college? Don't recall exactly). Anyway, neither school had had any big outbreaks of VPD's, which I thought was interesting.

So not about Amish specifically, but I think it's info along the lines you were talking about....

[Juvysen]

Interesting. My family is mostly christian scientist, but their kids are vaxed. I guess they were annoyed by all the hoops they'd have to jump through and since they don't believe that the body is "real", but that it does what you believe it will do, through G-d (or something to that effect) they sort of shrugged when the kids were little. I guess they haven't vaxed since, though, and the kids are now in public school in NY state, so...

[jessjgh1]

As for thimersol in contact solution....I buy saline solution and remember the labels saying thimersol free on the sensitive forumulas. Not sure if that means the thimersol is still in some brands.

I know some Amish are more scientifically minded than others. I met a young Amish woman who uses many modern conveniences (email, blog, etc.) and participates in promoting scientific research in effort to help further treatments for one of the genetic conditions seen in the Amish communities. So who knows, they may be willing to contribute to such a study of their culture is respected in the process.

Jessica