Two questions about Judaism - Page 2

[Smokering]

You may recall such words, but you've entirely mischaracterized the point.

The point is G!d. Period.

That doesn't make sense. God in't a "point". Do you mean the point is closeness to God? Obedience to God? Honoring God?

As for mischaracterisation, I don't believe I misrepresented the opinions expressed by the women in the previous thread; I was simply describing what they said. If those opinions mischaracterise Judaism as you understand it, fine; if I misinterpreted their words, show me how.

lolar2: What do you mean by "closer to God"? As in, living closer to conformity with His commands; or you mean in terms of a personal relationship with God? If the latter, do you feel atheist Jews who follow the mitzvot will be closer to a personal relationship (although perhaps unacknowledged/undefined?) to God than Jews who do not?

[merpk]

Originally Posted by Smokering

That doesn't make sense. God in't a "point". Do you mean the point is closeness to God? Obedience to God? Honoring God?

As for mischaracterisation, I don't believe I misrepresented the opinions expressed by the women in the previous thread; I was simply describing what they said. If those opinions mischaracterise Judaism as you understand it, fine; if I misinterpreted their words, show me how.

lolar2: What do you mean by "closer to God"? As in, living closer to conformity with His commands; or you mean in terms of a personal relationship with God? If the latter, do you feel atheist Jews who follow the mitzvot will be closer to a personal relationship (although perhaps unacknowledged/undefined?) to God than Jews who do not?

Au contraire. Makes perfect sense.

All of your questions and comments have been answered in other threads, too. You can find them just as well as you found the misrepresentations.

[Smokering]

OK, I didn't "find" the misrepresentations via the search function, the opinions came up in a thread with which I was involved. I don't frequent RS very often any more and I have no idea how I'd go about using MDC's somewhat dodgy search function to find a thread on varying attitudes within Judaism to the law and/or a personal relationship with God. If you can give me some links, great; if not, I'm bowing out of this thread, as it doesn't look like it's going to be productive.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by Smokering

That doesn't make sense. God in't a "point". Do you mean the point is closeness to God? Obedience to God? Honoring God?

As for mischaracterisation, I don't believe I misrepresented the opinions expressed by the women in the previous thread; I was simply describing what they said. If those opinions mischaracterise Judaism as you understand it, fine; if I misinterpreted their words, show me how.

lolar2: What do you mean by "closer to God"? As in, living closer to conformity with His commands; or you mean in terms of a personal relationship with God? If the latter, do you feel atheist Jews who follow the mitzvot will be closer to a personal relationship (although perhaps unacknowledged/undefined?) to God than Jews who do not?

Unfortunately, for Jews, G-d is a perfectly good point. It's all of what you said - closeness, obedience, honor, tradition. All of these parts of G-d are the point.

I think maybe I was one of the ones you feel "misrepresented" the point. Oftentimes, we are explaining to Christians, who subdivide into "belief" and "works." When this happens, we come out 100% works. We don't really have creeds like Christianity ("I believe in one G-d, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth...."). We show our devotion through living as G-d wants us to live. Now, there are many interpretations of how G-d wants us to live (as many as there are Jews), so it can be confusing. Halacha isn't a science - any more than any law is black-and-white enough to be considered a science.

What I think you're frustrated by (what I think you believe was "mischaracterized"), is that equally black-and-white answer to the black-and-white question oftentimes given to us. The real answer is that Jews should have both closeness and obedience - this shows true honor. If you cannot for some reason have one, it is better to have the second. It's always better to have obedience than closeness. How many times have humans been guilty of "talking the talk but not walking the walk"? Far better to "walk the walk and not talk the talk." Even if you cannot identify with the G-d you're obeying, we believe that closeness will come - how can it not? It is much easier than trying to reach obedience the other way around. The mitzvot are HARD. We're not talking "go to church on Sunday." If you change your entire life to serve this G-d (that you may or may not believe in), something has to give.

So it's not that a personal relationship with G-d is "gravy." It's that if you don't have one, don't worry about it - you need to be worrying about keeping the mitzvot, and the relationship will come. No creed (in Judaism) can lead you to G-d. o words or beliefs bring you "salvation." It's your actions and the way you live that ultimately make you a good Jew.

[Nickarolaberry]

Let me see if I can use a metaphor that will bring the picture into focus. Please forgive discrepancies, as they are inherent in any metaphor.

If you, or someone you know, or someone you admire, is a fitness enthusiast/athlete, then you know that achieving a high level of fitness requires a tremendous amount of work and dedication. Workouts are made up of many different kinds of activities/increments/levels of intensity. They are not always easy, enjoyable, or pleasant. But the ultimate goal is an achievement of a level of fitness which is all the more wonderful for the effort that went into attaining it.

The Torah, and its mitzvot, are like spiritual exercise. They are our 'workout' in this life. They are not always easy -- either to understand or do; not always enjoyable. Sometimes we might find them unpleasant (fasting comes to mind). However, if we do them correctly, we can find a real energy, satisfaction, and exhilaration from the effort we exert. And the ultimate prize is that overwhelming accomplishment of achieving a closer relationship to G-d -- honoring, obeying, feeling close to Him, knowing we are on the right path.

Sometimes an athlete gets injured, or becomes lackluster in performance or workouts, etc. -- then the athlete starts rebuilding again, step by step, to reclaim his or her fitness. Sometimes we fall down the "ladder" of mitzvot -- we can't, don't, won't, or somehow just slide away from doing the right thing. That's okay, because there's always another opportunity to do 'teshuva' (make up for) and slowly climb back up that ladder again. That's why we have the mitzvot, so we have a concrete way to start that climb again, step by step by step.

Tomorrow, we fast and ask G-d for another year of opportunities to climb back up the ladder. Because, being human, all of us slide down and lose spiritual 'fitness' somewhere along the way. And so we recognize that and negate our physical needs for a day in order to concentrate on our spiritual quest to get closer to G-d.

ETA: In Judaism, the dichotomy between faith/belief and action is a false one, as has been emphasized before. The fact is, faith/belief is itself a Mitzvah -- an avoda (service to G-d). That is, although G-d bestows upon us the basic kernel of faith, it is up to us to 'exercise' and develop it. Sometimes it is challenged (as when bad things happen) and we must work harder to improve upon it, just like other mitzvot.

For those who are fasting: may you have an easy and meaningful fast. May G-d seal you in the Book of Life for the coming year. May you have a year of joy, peace, abundance, health, and only good tidings in your life. May you have a year of climbing the ladder of mitzvot successfully!

[Smokering]

Nickarolaberry, sme: Thanks for the clarification. FTR I had no opinion on whether or not the comments in the original thread "mischaracterised" anything: I don't know enough about Judaism to know how accurate a representation of Judaism the comments were. It was another poster who brought up the "misrepresenting" comments. I like the explanations you gave. Christianity isn't quite as simple as faith vs works either, but that's another topic for another time...

[eurobin]

Re: Jewish atheists

This is a bit off topic, but I am getting lost. I most definitely am not the most well versed in Judiasm. But if a person is a Jewish atheist, he'd have to be Orthodox, right? Because isn't the idea behind the Reform movement that one observes the mitzvot that bring one closer to G-d, right? So as a Jewish atheist, would you have to keep all 613 because if you didn't believe in G-d, how could know which ones would bring you closer? Or not?

[Nickarolaberry]

No, Eurobin.

Orthodox Jews accept that G-d gave us the Torah on Mt. Sinai and believe that both the written and oral Torah (Talmud) are divinely given and thus obligatory in all facets. We can't observe all 613 mitzvot because: a) many are related to the Temple, which we don't have right now; and b) many are gender, tribe, or otherwise specific to certain groups of people. We are however, obligated to perform/observe any and all mitzvot that apply to us (using the royal 'us' here). Orthodoxy, as such, is not a discrete movement. It is the kind of Judaism that has been around since the beginning, around 3000 years. It is only known as "Orthodoxy" today (and actually comprises a vast spectrum and array of sub-movements) because other movements (Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Humanist) sprang up beginning in the late 19th century during the Enlightenment. Orthodox Jews don't usually call themselves that. They use the term "Torah Observant" or "Shomer Mitzvot" (keepers of mitzvot) or use a term more suited to their specific path (Chassidic, Yeshivish, Religious Zionist, etc.).

Reform Judaism, as a discrete movement which has a published platform -- more like Christian denominations in terms of its organizational structure -- rejects the idea of the Torah being given directly by G-d to Moses; instead taking the position that the Torah was "Divinely Inspired" and authored by humans. Reform Judaism (note I am here referring to the movement, not to beliefs of individual Reform Jews, for whom I of course cannot speak) believes that the mitzvot are applicable insofar as a person believes they are worthwhile of observance and are valuable and resonant for that individual's spiritual journey. Reform Judaism as a movement does not hold by the authority of the Oral Torah (Mishna/Talmud).

Conservative Judaism, as a movement, is more muddy on these issues.

As for Jewish atheists...there is actually a movement called Humanistic Judaism which rejects the concept of a Divine role in the world but accepts the tradition, moral basis, and peoplehood/nationhood of the Jews. I imagine that people who are born Jewish, and as atheists wish to identify somehow as Jews but are not interested in worshipping, would be drawn to Humanistic Judaism.

However, that said, the truth is that people who are born into the Jewish nation and don't believe in G-d are still Jews by virtue of their birth. That is the nationhood/peoplehood aspect of Judaism -- something that, generally speaking, Westerners find very difficult to comprehend. I can't really explain it other than to say that the Jewish nation is a very real thing -- and its members, wherever they fall on the belief/worship/observance of mitzvot spectrum, retain full membership as Jews until they die (or renounce themselves by virtue of converting to another faith).

[eurobin]

Thanks for that explanation! I still don't entirely understand it but you really helped to clarify the Orthodox and Reform positions (if that's the right word) and shed a little light on it for me. No matter how much I try to read about Judiasm, I don't think I'll ever entirely *get* it, but I am struck by how willing and patient most Jews are to explain their faith.