I don't know what to do!

[dislocator3972]

[Cross posted because I think I should have posted it here to begin with. oops]

I've had so many nursing problems and nothing seems to be getting any better. If I hear "Stay encouraged!" one more time I'm going to vomit.

My LO is 3 weeks old and all she wants to do is nurse. My nipples look like hamburger meat and hurt ALL THE TIME. She has an incredibly shallow latch and can only latch onto me without the nipple shield maybe 30% of the time. People kept telling me that she is just building my supply, but she spits up during and after every feeding, so what would she need MORE milk for? She eats until she gets sick as it is!

Originally, I wanted to wait and not give a pacifier until around 8 weeks, but I can't do this much longer. When she is awake she is either nursing or crying, and today I'd rather she be crying.

I just can't do this anymore. Her latch is SO PAINFUL. I've been told that it isn't supposed to be but it is. I have a lactation nurse that has been coming out once a week but her latch isn't any better. If anything it hurts more because she's learned that she can take the nipple shield with her when she turns her head and she can keep sucking so she tries to do that with me too.

I've also been to an LLL meeting and I've been speaking with a leader about my issues but she just seems to give me all the same stuff I've been reading in books. And I don't want emotional support, I want the problems gone. Maybe my desire to disengage is proof that I do need emotional support.

She's upstairs crying with DH right now. She's been nursing for about three and a half hours (a pretty normal evening for us) and she's really upset that she isn't nursing now. I don't think it's possible that her stomach could still be empty, and she wont sleep for more than 10 minutes. Last week we tried giving her milk I'd pumped (trying to keep up my supply) but she wouldn't have any of it. We fed her by dropper for days before we got the shield so she knows what it is, but she didn't want it, she held it in her mouth for a few minutes, let it fall back out and went back to crying.

I had been pumping daily, but my nipples are FAR too big for the shells on my pump and that seemed to make the pain in my nipples so much worse. I've ordered bigger shields, but I live in the middle of nowhere so they're taking a while to come in. I finally quit pumping because I figured even with the shields she's on the breast SO MUCH that my supply won't really have a chance to decrease.

So she eats until she falls asleep, then wakes up crying for the breast again. Sometimes she'll go an hour or occasionally more, but frequently she'll nurse every 10 minutes. I really don't think I've yet spent 5 minutes with my daughter awake and not nursing. At this point, breastfeeding is RUINING our relationship, not helping it.

DH thinks that letting her cry it out would be better than getting her a pacifier because crying it out won't teach her bad habits. I figure her latch can't get worse but her opinion of us and ability to trust can.

I wish I could let her nurse while she wanted to but I'm in so much pain that I've started yelling and jerking away from her and I'm afraid I'm going to end up grabbing at her mouth or something.

I'm ready to go buy formula and get her off me altogether. At least that way I could get some sleep and maybe be a good mother to her instead of trying to avoid her and get away from her every chance I get.

I'm so discouraged. What do I do?

[no5no5]

Is there any possibility you could be overproducing milk? Some things you said remind me of my problems when DD was newborn: wanting to nurse constantly; nursing until she threw up, then wanting to nurse more; crying when not nursing (due to gas pain); shallow latch and pulling away (due to overactive letdown). It took me months to figure it out, but the problem was basically solved in less than two weeks once I did. If that is what it is, there is (thankfully) an easy fix. You just have to reduce your supply. If that's not what it is, hopefully some other ladies will have advice.

Good luck. (And don't give up!!!)

[no5no5]

Just in case, because it really does seem likely to me that this might be your problem, I thought I'd add:

The best way I found to reduce my supply was to let DD nurse on just one breast until it was totally empty--for me that took a day or more--expressing (and discarding or freezing) just enough milk from the other breast to ease discomfort. Then, switch to the other breast and repeat. If the other breast is too engorged to allow a good latch, you can pump (and discard or freeze) a bit just before letting baby nurse.

The problems are (a) your milk supply will decrease quickly with this method, so be careful you don't go too far; (b) if you're like me, the breast you're not using is going to hurt. On the up side, that nipple will get some time to recover. Oh, and (c) you'll be lopsided pretty much all the time until you get your supply down.

The benefits: Baby gets more of the fatty & nutritious hind milk, which helps settle her stomach and ease her hunger so that she won't be throwing up & still hungry. She'll have less gas pain. When your milk begins flowing more slowly, she won't need to pull back to keep from choking, thus improving her latch greatly.

I really, really hope this helps.

[ewe+lamb]

I agree with the pps it sounds like supply issues, I would follow their advice and block nurse getting the creamy milk out and pump to comfort (or hand express) you should notice a change almost immediately or within the first few hours - if not post here again and we'll see what we can do, your body just needs to work out how much milk it needs to supply and it takes a while to work this out sometimes! need to go and nurse - will post more but do try the block nursing you may have to nurse on the same breast for 2 or even 3 times - see how you go. Best of luck.

[PatioGardener]

Posted in your other post - I suggested looking at tongue-tie.

[Megan73]

Is she gaining weight well?

[Kismet_fw]

The over-production sounds about right to me too (but it's been over 20 years for me, so more recent experience (and knowledge of newer equipment!) will be better. Also, is she burping ok? Mine hated the interruption, but if they started playing around at dinner, I'd have them up on my shoulder for burping. It reduced the spitting up a little.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

Paci isnt a bad habit but CIO causes mental issues for the child. Overusing a paci is when the problems happen. So between the 2 do the paci if you have to and she will take one. She may not take it at all you wont know unless you try. The lactation consultant you have now isnt helping so find a new one.

[buttercups.nest]

I don't have any breastfeeding experience so I can't really give much input...I went to an LLL meeting last night and the woman leading gave some advice.....'Never quit on your worst day.'

When I was attempting to breastfeed my daughter it wasn't going well....and I quit on my worst day. I regret it to this day, 2 years later down the road.

I really hope things turn around for you, would love to hear how they turn out.

Good luck!

[dislocator3972]

Thanks for all your responses, I really appreciate the help.

I don't know if oversupply is it, because I've been block feeding to cut down the engorgement for almost 2 weeks. (Is engorgement the same thing as oversupply? I thought engorgement referred to milk that was 'stuck' in the breast but I could be wrong) I was actually worried that maybe I wasn't producing enough (I think using a nipple shield is linked to underproducing isn't it?) and that she was nursing constantly because she was hungry (though if she wont take milk I don't think she's hungry).

She's gaining weight well, though she isn't quite up to her birth weight yet. But this week she's been gaining almost an ounce per day.

Never quit on your worst day sounds like good advice. Hopefully today we can come up with a good plan to get us through the evenings (when everything is at it's worst).

[alicewyf]

I agree with the PPs who postulated that it could be an oversupply. My daughter only lost 4 oz. from her birth weight and was back up to it within a week of her birth. I had a lot of milk! Now, at 8 weeks, I am *just now* starting to feed from both breasts at a feeding. I can pump 7 oz or more per session. I am just a big producer I guess. I hear this will go down as she gets older and supply is more demand based (as opposed to hormone driven), so I'm trying to feel lucky about it.

I would just keep block feeding, personally. Confirm with an LC first that that is what it is, and just keep block feeding until you notice a difference.

My daughter does something similar in the evenings...she is fussy at night and wants to comfort nurse, but it is impossible for her to not get milk out of my oversupplied breasts! I can tell when she is actually hungry because she gets down to business and actually extracts milk, but when she is trying to comfort nurse she is much more distractable, kicks her feet against me(we side-lay nurse most of the time) and ends up ripping my nipple out of her mouth...ouch!!! When she starts up with that I nurse long enough to be *sure* she got enough milk if she actually was hungry (up to 25-30 minutes), then I hand her off to her dad, who uses a (clean) pinky finger to take care of her sucking needs. For a few weeks there it was like my boobs made her angry at night or something!! But once she is on daddy's chest she is able to calm down.

I should say that my daughter is a great gainer and has gained over 4 lbs. in 8 weeks (averaging 8 oz a week), so I felt comfortable doing that. She also has a great latch. I don't know if I would limit nursing *at all* until your DD is above her birth weight, and you are sure her latch is good.

Also, I wanted to say that it will get better. It didn't happen till about 3-4 weeks for me, but now nursing is HEAVEN. I love nursing my sweet baby girl. You won't regret doing this for her, I promise. I honestly feel that breastfeeding her is one of the best things I've ever done in my life, but I wouldn't have said that when she was 2 weeks old!

[tessie]

Originally Posted by MCatLvrMom2A&X

Paci isnt a bad habit but CIO causes mental issues for the child.

Crying while being comforted by dad is not CIO. Sometimes babies cry and we can't comfort them, no matter what we try. But having tried is what counts.

To the OP, I'm sorry you're finding it tough. It can be damn hard work at the start but I hope you can find a way to make it work. FWIW, the evening fussiness and constant feeding is normal and doesn't last forever.

[no5no5]

Engorgement is not the same as oversupply, but it is related. Are your breasts still engorged? Do you have breast pain (other than nipple pain)? You say you're doing block feeding. How long are you staying on one breast? Does it seem empty before you are switching back to the other breast? Are you pumping the breast you are not feeding on, or just letting it stay full? You said you were pumping to keep up your supply, which seems inconsistent with the concept of block feeding for engorgement, so I'm a bit confused. Can you elaborate?

[no5no5]

Originally Posted by tessie

Crying while being comforted by dad is not CIO. Sometimes babies cry and we can't comfort them, no matter what we try. But having tried is what counts.

That's right. And mama needs to do what she has to to stay sane, for the sake of herself AND her baby.

[dislocator3972]

Originally Posted by no5no5

Engorgement is not the same as oversupply, but it is related. Are your breasts still engorged? Do you have breast pain (other than nipple pain)? You say you're doing block feeding. How long are you staying on one breast? Does it seem empty before you are switching back to the other breast? Are you pumping the breast you are not feeding on, or just letting it stay full? You said you were pumping to keep up your supply, which seems inconsistent with the concept of block feeding for engorgement, so I'm a bit confused. Can you elaborate?

I had the engorgement problem right when my milk first came in, use the shield to get through that and then my LC suggested I pump once a day so that my supply didn't drop off while we work on weaning from the shield.


Thanks so much everyone for your advice and ideas. I have a lot to talk to my LC about on Tues.

[inkedmamajama]

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&um...sults&resnum=4


sounds like if you fix her latch, things will be fine-so i suggest taking her to a cranialsacral therapist for massage and adjustment...it will be so worth your while! you could also see if there are any chiropractors in your area that specialize in adjusting newborns. I recently had someone that needed to get their daughter adjusted several times and then the latch fixed and she is able to nurse easily now-but it was hard for the first 5 weeks-go see if some adjustments will help!

[Latte Mama]

It does sound like it could possibly be oversupply which is frequently misdiagnosed as UNDERsupply. I think getting her checked for tongue tie is also a good idea in regards to the shallow latch. Also, is your LC an IBCLC? There is a difference. You'd be surprised at how many so called *LC's* give horrible advice (not saying yours does).

[GearGirl]

You know what, this sounds just like me with my third, and somewhat like me with my first. I'm betting you have sensitive skin, possibly fair skinned. The baby could be nursing constantly for comfort, or supply issues, but that is a different issue from your comfort and pain. No offense to LLL or the nursing consultants from the hospital, but they seem ill equipped to deal with certain cases, always saying the same thing "if the latch is right it won't be painful, blah, blah, blah" That is a BUNCH of BS for the extreme cases of pain, and they honestly don't get it. I've nursed three kids for a total of 6 and a half years so far, so I'm pretty much thinking my personal experience is putting me in a position to know what I'm talking about. With my first and my third I had so many problems and tried to seek help to no avail! I still have no idea why number two was smooth sailing. So here is what I did, it is not what is recommended, so you have to decide for yourself what works. I supplemented to give my body a break, and I certainly used a pacifier which was great for ds1, but ds 2 wasn't having it. I would say I supplemented up to about 20 ounces a day for maybe three months, and then slowly weaned off the formula, around the three month mark ds 2 wouldn't even consider a bottle, he would spit it out and gag. It was almost impossible to pump, because even with the larger shields on the pump it still hurt and just wasn't worth the stress. Latching on felt like someone was shooting sharp needles in me, I was black and blue, my nipples were bleeding. I needed to heal this. The supplementing helped give me the break I needed (and helped with supply because I think the pain was causing a supply issue.) At about the six to eight week mark the pain went away with both ds 1 and ds 2, and then I could comfort nurse around the clock and give the baby what he needed. I'm now still nursing my 22 month old about 20 times a day, no pain ever. When you hit that 6 week mark you will notice a huge, huge improvement and it is so worth it to nurse the baby. I wish more was understood about cases like ours, but I think most people just give up. Don't give up, but do give your body the rest and help it needs to keep going. This isn't all or nothing, it just isn't.

[bundy]

Have you contemplated yeast? I was in so much pain, had so many cracks and all anyone would do is talk about improving the latch. Because my daughter didn't have white patches, I went undiagnosed for 4 months! Truely brutal. Turns out yeast was the most painful of my challenges (amongst Renaud's and OAL).
Try some APNO to see if it helps.

[ErinsJuneBug]

I dont think you have an oversupply if she still isnt back up to birthweight at 3 weeks. Its very hard for babies to get milk out if they arent latched on correctly.

How have you been doing the last few days?