Reform Judaism-Consequences of not circumcising?

[KaylaBeanie]

If I'm up to date on my MDC rules, we may discuss circ as it pertains to religion here, but not debate, correct? I'm really just looking for different viewpoints/experiences.

In short, I've recently felt drawn to Reform Judaism, though I have several years of soul-searching and researching before even considering conversion. Circumcising future sons is not even remotely an option for me, though I fully understand I'd be in a religion and culture where it is overwhelmingly the norm. Part of my soul-searching would have to include coming to peace with the fact that for many, what they view as a mandate from G-d is not so easily dropped, you know? Reading Jews against circumcision really helped me, but I have no idea how the real life community views it. Obviously nobody would see my son's penis. However, there would be the issue of would a rabbi perform a Brit Shalom instead of a Brit Milah(?right word?)? I wouldn't want my sons to feel pressure as an adult to feel they had to be Jewish or had to be circumcised to be Jewish.

Do Orthodox and Reform view the issue differently? What would be the repercussions spiritually of not circumcising a son?

[sapphire_chan]

Questioning Circumcision: a Jewish Perspective is the book another Jewish MDC mama with 3 intact sons gave me when I was figuring out how to approach this question with my dh. We ended up deciding to let our sons decide for themselves at an older age, since it would be more meaningful then, vs us sacrificing part of them on their behalf.

Thank goodness Lina's a girl though, because I am NOT looking forward to dealing with the in-laws on this one.

For you? Should be a non-issue. The mama I mention above never even had anyone comment when her kids were in the temple nursery getting their diapers changed. The only people she got grief from were her Jewish in-laws and they came around as well.


I think for stuff like birthright Israel and such, your kids would have to convert themselves with Reform Judaism. Under Orthodox laws, as you'd be a Jewish woman, your children would be automatically Jewish. There's a lot of complicated things that I really never bothered looking into since dh and I agreed on our beliefs about God and the religious rituals we'd observe and he can't go back to Israel until he's like 35 anyway.

[honey-lilac]

I think, technically, her kids wouldn't be automatically Jewish under Orthodox law (for Israel and such) unless she herself was Orthodox (or a proven hereditary Jew) anyway.

And yeah, the OP mentioned it pretty well. It's not only the cultural norm but pretty much a covenant from God, so it's not exactly like, "well EVERYONE wears this style of clothing and I want to wear a different color" - it's pretty much a necessary thing for Orthodox. Reform, I guess they follow whatever they feel like following. Not trying to be mean-spirited, but that's the impression that I get.

[KaylaBeanie]

Yes, this pertains entirely to Reform. I am aware that if I converted, myself and my children would not be considered Jewish by the Orthodox.

[smeisnotapirate]

I'm a reform Jew, but take my opinion or leave it, as always.

My son is circumcised. I had it done in a traditional bris, after spending LOTS of time researching circumcision on MDC. I knew exactly what I was doing to him.

In our community, nobody even asks if you're going to have a bris. It is assumed. You can work this both ways - either they'll just assume your son is circumcised and unless you say something, nobody will know, or you can assume that they will want to attend the bris because it's a very joyful time in the life of a congregation. I've found that suggesting something like a "bris shalom" gets you laughed out of the board room - it's either a bris or no bris. Period. Either you do the mitzvah or you don't do the mitzvah and you go on with life - despite what the websites and books will tell you, in real life, it's usually one or the other.

If it is already out of the question for you, then you've already answered your question. Of course you'll be accepted into a liberal Jewish community - liberal Judaism is all about finding the mitzvot that have meaning to you and clinging to them, though I do have to say, many rabbis (even reform ones) strongly recommend (read: all but require) circumcision for conversion. A friend of mine, born a Soviet Jew, was circumcised at age 40. I do not envy him the decision.

Jews against Circumcision and Questioning Circumcision ignore the big problem IMO. They try to boil it down to community conformity and antiquated ideas, when it's really about - what do you believe about G-d's sovereignty and about the application of Torah to real life? How relevant are the traditional aspects of Judaism to you today?

As a reform Jew, you absolutely have the right to say that it is a mitzvah that you see no meaning in. It won't be popular, but who cares?

ETA: Liberal Jews believe that the "spiritual consequences" are between you and G-d. G-d is always happy when someone chooses to do a mitzvah, because he gave them to us to enrich our lives (so says the Torah), but it's ultimately between you and G-d on Judgement Day.

[KaylaBeanie]

I think my biggest issue with it is that, as far as I know, the "original" circumcision is much different than is what is done today. Wasn't it originally just removing a very small amount of foreskin? That's what I've always been told. So I just don't understand why if G-d ordered it done, and it was originally done a specific way, why it would be done differently today.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie

I think my biggest issue with it is that, as far as I know, the "original" circumcision is much different than is what is done today. Wasn't it originally just removing a very small amount of foreskin? That's what I've always been told. So I just don't understand why if G-d ordered it done, and it was originally done a specific way, why it would be done differently today.

I've read that as well. Unfortunately, there is no trustworthy Jewish scholarship on the subject, so I'm a bit skeptical. It seems to only be the "anti-circumcision" Jews who believe that, and there seems to be no concrete evidence to support it.

Also, if you go with a mohel (which is what I would suggest, hands-down), you will be able to talk with him about the process. I expressed concern for the sexual aspects of removing the entire foreskin, so our (orthodox) mohel bared only enough of the glans to fulfill the requirement. DS's cut looks half-and-half. You can tell he's circumcised, but his entire glans is not bare and he didn't strip the foreskin from the glans. Anti-circumcision advocates will tell you that it HAS to be bare and ALWAYS is bare, and this is just not true. Maybe in a doctor's office, but not with a mohel.

FWIW, if I wasn't Jewish, I would never CONSIDER circumcision. It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make as a mother, and brissim are always bittersweet. It's wonderful to welcome another Jewish boy, but the sacrifice is so hard...

[KaylaBeanie]

Thanks for that, it really gives me a lot to think about. I think that's really what I was looking for...obviously any group "against" anything will be an extreme minority, so it's nice to get opinions and experiences of actual people.

[Magelet]

In reform judaism, its definitely possible. The community probably wouldn't get it, though they might not ask questions about it, and the rabbi might or might not be ok with it, or do a bris shalom. I think you don't need a rabbi at a bris milah anyways. I think there are only two life cycle events which require a rabbi? conversion and? so you could really have anyone do your bris shalom, I think, if that's what you want.

Reconstructionist, and Renewal Judaism are also possible options, I don't know how their rabbis and congregations feel about circumcision (though in any congregation, the majority of jews will circumcise). Conservative and Orthodox, it won't fly, I don't think.

Good luck.

[DashsMama]

I converted in a Reform synagogue before I had children. As part of my conversion ceremony I was required to promise to have a bris for any male children I might have.

Between then and the time I had my first child I became opposed to circumcision and so all 3 of my boys are intact. I knowingly broke my oath, and even though I am content with the decision I made, it has driven a wedge between me and Judiasm. My boys don't have Jewish names, we don't attend synagogue, and even though I would like to join a synagogue, I am afraid to bring it up with a rabbi. So we're kind of in limbo (if I may borrow a Catholic term) because of it.

[lilyka]

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

Also, if you go with a mohel (which is what I would suggest, hands-down), you will be able to talk with him about the process. I expressed concern for the sexual aspects of removing the entire foreskin, so our (orthodox) mohel bared only enough of the glans to fulfill the requirement. DS's cut looks half-and-half. You can tell he's circumcised, but his entire glans is not bare and he didn't strip the foreskin from the glans.

If I were Jewish, this is exactly what I would have done. Fulfilling God's mandates are important to me, and since I believe He is Supreme, if I am submitting to Him, then I do what He says, whether that means baptism and confession, etc or circumcision in the case of the Jewish person.

However, I too would only ask that the smallest possible part of the foreskin be removed to fulfill the covenant. smeisnotapirate, I think you decided very thoughtfully and faithfully.

[KaylaBeanie]

Thank you again so much ladies. I'm terribly confused about all matters spiritual, and thank goodness I have so much time to decide. I have decided I will not convert if I cannot agree to perform a bris milah. Because, as much as Jews Opposing Circumcision might say it's not important, it IS a big part of Judaism. If I decide that G-d is calling me to Judaism, I cannot ignore something commanded of me. This, of course, is making my spiritual matters even more confusing, because I do feel a pulling toward Judaism, like I might be one of those people who has always been Jewish but just didn't realize. Sometimes I wish I was just happy with the religion I was raised with (Lutheran BTW)

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie

Thank you again so much ladies. I'm terribly confused about all matters spiritual, and thank goodness I have so much time to decide. I have decided I will not convert if I cannot agree to perform a bris milah. Because, as much as Jews Opposing Circumcision might say it's not important, it IS a big part of Judaism. If I decide that G-d is calling me to Judaism, I cannot ignore something commanded of me. This, of course, is making my spiritual matters even more confusing, because I do feel a pulling toward Judaism, like I might be one of those people who has always been Jewish but just didn't realize. Sometimes I wish I was just happy with the religion I was raised with (Lutheran BTW)

It's a tough decision. FWIW, I wasn't ok with it until after the bris was performed. I watched it, and I think watching it was cleansing (for me). It didn't make it magically ok, but as I saw my baby grow and develop, I knew it was the right decision for us.

Good luck on your journey.

[KaylaBeanie]

I've just gone back through 68 pages of Religious studies, and wanted to say I'm horribly sorry for asking the "just the tip" question as it has been asked in every freaking thread on here! By like, the tenth "jews and circ" thread, I wanted to rip my hair out every time "just the tip" was mentioned. So, I apologize :LOL

Anyhow, reading back through the bris milah experiences of many MDC mamas on here was very therapeutic and makes me feel completely at peace. I also looked through photo albums of some brissom on other websites, and it looks like a beautiful ceremony. I always was against religious circumcision because I was not a part of a religion that required it. I still am not Jewish(hope to be sooner, rather than later), but I get it. I get it completely. I will say though, that despite being absolutely against RIC, I feel like I'm coming out of the closet to a group of Catholics by announcing my plans to convert. I'm sure I'll lose some friends when the inevitable question of bris milah gets asked.

[lilyka]

this has noting to do with circumcision or being Jewish, but when i converted to my faith I lost friends and even family over it. It was so hard but it was also good. At times I felt like I was just posing and being drawn into the differentness of it all. more in it for the atmosphere than for God. But when you have to pack you bags and leave your old life there is something about that that assures your brain that your heart knows what it is doing ya know.

[KaylaBeanie]

Well, thankfully all my friends and family have been so supportive. I'm actually blown away by it. My mother will tell you that I have always been "Jewish on the inside" and she has me literally tell her everything about Judaism I learn. I suggested we celebrate Hanukkah this year, and my mom and sister are very excited

I'm currently on pretty shaky terms with my brother and SIL for other reasons, and I'm sure as Southern Baptists, this decision won't be popular with them. However, I know that this is for me and that's what matters. It's so wonderful, because everything I read just connects in my brain. So many of these opinions and beliefs I've formed in my 20 years fit exactly within Judaism. It feels like coming home.

[ursusarctos]

I am not Jewish, but I have a male Jewish friend who is not circumcised. He belongs to a liberal Jewish community in Washington. When I expressed surprise at finding out that he was not circumcised despite being both Jewish and American, he said "my parents were hippies first, Jews second" As far as I know, he has never experienced any weirdness about not being circumcised and had a bar mitzvah just like all the other boys in his congregation.
I don't know if you've come across it already but this site seemed to have some good information about choosing not to circumcise as a Jew.
Good luck in your decision making...

[DocsNemesis]

I can relate somewhat to how you feel. I'm totally against RIC as well, but Jewish circumcision has always been sort of a gray area for me.

I'm not Jewish and I'm not even really religious, but I can still understand where you come from. This is a religious event for you, a covenant to God-its just not the same as someone doing it for asthetics or whatever else. I still don't know exactly how I feel about it...its still circumcision on an unconsenting minor and you never have any idea if they will be Jewish as adults or whatever else-but its still not the same and your reasons for doing it are much more valid than most American's.

Having said that, IF I were to have my son circumcised, I would seek out a mohel myself. Again, I'm not religious and this wouldn't be a celebration for me, but I've seen several bris' before and its so much simpler and much less of a stress for the baby (from what I can see from the baby). Its much faster than a medical circumcision, the baby isn't strapped to a board, and it just overall seems so much less stressful. They've always cried, but very briefly and then...its over. So yeah, if I were, I'd be seeking out a mohel anyway. Hopefully that makes you feel a little better about it.

[KaylaBeanie]

Originally Posted by DocsNemesis

I can relate somewhat to how you feel. I'm totally against RIC as well, but Jewish circumcision has always been sort of a gray area for me.

I'm not Jewish and I'm not even really religious, but I can still understand where you come from. This is a religious event for you, a covenant to God-its just not the same as someone doing it for asthetics or whatever else. I still don't know exactly how I feel about it...its still circumcision on an unconsenting minor and you never have any idea if they will be Jewish as adults or whatever else-but its still not the same and your reasons for doing it are much more valid than most American's.

Having said that, IF I were to have my son circumcised, I would seek out a mohel myself. Again, I'm not religious and this wouldn't be a celebration for me, but I've seen several bris' before and its so much simpler and much less of a stress for the baby (from what I can see from the baby). Its much faster than a medical circumcision, the baby isn't strapped to a board, and it just overall seems so much less stressful. They've always cried, but very briefly and then...its over. So yeah, if I were, I'd be seeking out a mohel anyway. Hopefully that makes you feel a little better about it.

I've seen a few bris milah videos on youtube, and the difference between those and hospital circumcisions is absolutely astounding. If I ever have any friends who are not Jewish but insist on circumcising, I would without a doubt insist they use a mohel.