No crib for a bed

[hrsmom]

Here's something I've been pondering. (And I pondered it for about an hour the other night at my mom's house after my dd woke me up an I couldn't get back to sleep!) The story goes that Mary wrapped her babe in swaddling clothes and lay him in a manger, and in the song "Away in a Manger" it says that baby Jesus had no crib for a bed. I started thinking that I doubt that is what that means, that she lay him in a manger because they didn't have a crib, because I'm pretty sure they didn't have babies sleep in cribs in those days! So I wonder what the significance of that (Mary laying him in a manger) is. Any thoughts? I know when I had a baby, I held her in my arms as much as possible, and I imagine Mary would have too! No real need to stick him in a manger, I would imagine. I am certainly no expert on ancient Middle Eastern culture, just wondering!

[honey-lilac]

Well, I imagine Mary did hold Jesus lots, but perhaps it was the year 0 equivalent of a playpen or swing. Plus Away in a Manger is a modern song, I think.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Kaleanani

Well, I imagine Mary did hold Jesus lots, but perhaps it was the year 0 equivalent of a playpen or swing. Plus Away in a Manger is a modern song, I think.

It dates to the mid-1880s:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Away_in_a_manger

I take crib to mean cradle. Also, poets (hymn texts often begin as poems) often take "poetic" license.

[AlmostAPpropriate]

Even the mother of the messiah has personal needs she needs to attend to without a baby in her arms...

[hrsmom]

Ah, thinking of it as a cradle (vs. crib) does make sense. I guess I just wanted others' perspectives, because I'd been viewing it through this lens of that song, plus the nativity scenes where Jesus is just there in the manger and Joseph and Mary are standing there. (Not attending to personal needs, just standing there.) I still wonder why that made it into the story. What was the writer trying to say?

[Masel]

I think the religious symbolism of having the nativity in a barn and the baby in a manger is to emphasize how outside of the world of men they were. A birth was supposed to have lots of attendants for the mother. She's supposed to be home surrounded by her female relatives not on the road dealing with a damn census.

I don't know exactly what birth was like in Bethlem in the first century but I have read a translation of a gynecological textbook written by Soranus in the 1st or 2nd century in Ephesis. There is quite a bit of baby care including many pages on how to swaddle and about cribs.

There are a lot of different kinds of nativity scenes in art and they evolved through history. An early one shows Mary reclining on the hay resting after labor, the baby in the manger and two of the beast looking in on the baby.

[yarngoddess]

I have always wondered about that line in that song too! My mom thought a "manger" was more of a box or trough of some sort that held hay for the animals. Something that makes you go "hhhmmmmmmm" lol

[Fay]

I think it is related to the Jewish laws for ritual purity. Remember that Jesus, Mary and Joseph were observant Jews. Mothers and babies were "impure" for 8 days after birth, IIRC. Giving birth among animals is even more impure.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by yarngoddess

I have always wondered about that line in that song too! My mom thought a "manger" was more of a box or trough of some sort that held hay for the animals. Something that makes you go "hhhmmmmmmm" lol

Yes, that is what a manger is. I don't understand your point....?

[lilyka]

keep in mind away in a manger is a modern song based on popular american culture at the time and I have always considered it a childrens song. don't read too much into it. :LOL hey little kids, I am going to tell you a story, when you were a baby you were born in a comfortable place with a Dr and nurse and a comfy cozy crib your mom had prepared for you Jesus did not have any of that.....there was a cow and a donkey and dirt anf manger....and a drummer boy.....its not doctrine, or at least not good doctrine, its just a retelling of a story for children.

I was under the impression that a manger was a place where the family animals were kept. more of a garage - pre car. not a feed box. Thats what my semenary professor said.... but yeah, I am sure mary held him much of the time but a girl has got to sleep. and pee. and you need a cozy little spot to put your baby. i am sure she made do with what was handy. actually there is no biblical evidence they remained in the outside the house once she was ritually pure again...I mean what kind of lose wouldn't let a new mama come to a more comfortable spot? There is no biblical evidence there were no midwives or women helpers. I mean, both were common. She wasn't alone out in the wilderness. She was in a very crowded city, full of family, so full there was no where for them to park it. Someone would have thought to say "go get the midwives" or "go get aunt Ethel, she has birthed 15 babies and knows whats going on here" there was no evidence Mary was being shunned or anything.

but in the end, try not to read too much doctrine into modern Western nursery rhymes.

[Tradd]

to Lilyka! I couldn't figure out a way to put it!

[Dar]

Nope. It's a "feed box", or feeding trough. That's the whole point of the song - Mary had no bed for baby Jesus, so she had to use the feeding trough as a bed.

[hrsmom]

Thanks for all your thoughts on this one!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by Dar

Nope. It's a "feed box", or feeding trough. That's the whole point of the song - Mary had no bed for baby Jesus, so she had to use the feeding trough as a bed.

Usually a manger is specifically for hay or other plant materials. They often have slats so the animals can pull the hay out a bit at a time. So the hay would be a nice spot for the baby.

[Dar]

I just realized - everyone has probaby seen a manger, because in nativity scenes that's what Jesus is usually shown lying in....

[theretohere]

Originally Posted by Dar

I just realized - everyone has probaby seen a manger, because in nativity scenes that's what Jesus is usually shown lying in....

No, I see why you clarified- it sounded from lilyka's post she thought the whole stable was the manger?

[lilyka]

thats what my professor told me. well he said manger was a bad translation/inteerpretation of whatever the word was in the original language....meh makes no difference to me. Honestly i think we here at mothing make a lot of assumptions of how people parented in early times. I think it is perfectly likely she wrapped in swaddeling clothes and laid him down to sleep.

[Adele_Mommy]

The modern definition of the word "manger" is just the feeding trough, but the feeding troughs used in ancient Israel were nothing like the manger you see in the typical nativity scene. For one thing, they were made of stone. Here is a picture. Not exactly what you would imagine putting a baby in.

lilyka is correct that there is lots of room for interpretation/theorizing on what the "laid him in a manger" line really means, and one interpretation is that it refers to the whole stable. See the entry for manger in the Easton Bible Dictionary. Note that the word is translated as manger in Luke 2:7, but as stall in Luke 13:15.

The definition referenced above says in Luke 2:7 the manger is "the ledge or projection in the end of the room used as a stall on which the hay or other food of the animals of travellers was placed". It is also known that in Biblical times people sometimes kept their animals in caves and placed the hay or animal feed on a rock shelf (natural, carved, or a combination) in the back of the cave. This fits with later accounts of Jesus' birth that say he was born in a cave, not a stable (maybe it was both). Some Byzantine nativity scenes depict a cave: example 1 example 2

How does all this relate to the OP's question about how being laid in the manger compares to where a baby would have normally slept at the time? Well the interpretation I like best, which I obviously don't know is "right" but is certainly no less plausible than any other, is that Jesus was (supposedly) born in a cave that was being used to house the animals of travelers. The cave had a large rock shelf in the back with hay on it that made a serviceable makeshift bed, and Mary lay down there with Jesus.

Parents sleeping with their children was known at the time as evidenced by the story Jesus tells in Luke 11 that includes the line, "'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed" Lk. 11:7
Also see 1 Kings 3:19-20 where the woman is describing what happened right before King Solomon makes his famous judgement:

And this woman’s son died in the night, because she lay on him. 20And she arose at midnight and took my son from beside me, while your servant slept, and laid him at her breast, and laid her dead son at my breast.

So, I agree with those who say the song reflects the attitudes at the time of the writing: "poor Jesus - didn't have a crib". None of the babies born at that time would have had a crib, and probably not a cradle either. Most of the babies, at least of average people, would have slept next to their mothers.

Fascinating topic!

ETA: Just to clarify - the religious significance of "laid him in a manger" is still that Jesus had humble beginnings. The children's song paraphrases that point as "no crib for a bed", when actually the reality was probably born in a room where they were keeping animals and his mom didn't have a real bed to lie down with him on, but the underlying point is pretty much the same.

[hrsmom]

I've really enjoyed reading these responses! I definitely did make an assumption. based on the parable of Jesus, where the man is in bed with his children. And I don't think anything made its way into the Bible by accident! Just to be clear, I'm not criticizing Mary's parenting style just wondering what that detail means to the whole story. There is so much that could have been said in the birth stories, but that is what was said, so it's interesting to me. I purposely left a lot of my own ideas out of my question, to see what ideas people might have.

I think I read somewhere, too, that Mary laying him in a manger was evocative of Moses being laid in the basket.

[lilyka]

I think it is important to remember that this was a birth story told by men : i am sure if a woman had written it all the *important* details would have been there

I had a dramatic birth with my third child. i can't remember who he was telling but my husband was retelling the story and he went on about how awesome the midwife was, how awesome the nurse was, how awesome the baby was, how he almost missed it...."um, hey, i was there too doing some pretty cool stuff ya know...." it was really sute. i don't think he had been at all excited about my other births but it drove him the point of what men think is important parts of the story compared to what women think are important parts of the story. i am sure if Mary were telling the story we would know how long the labor was, what she did for pain relief, how many midwives were there, what their names were, what other women they had attended, what they did to make labor better, how he nursed, how she felt etc.....