first time prospective dog owner-lots of q's

[desertpenguin]

we're wanting to get a dog some time in the future and i'm trying to do my research. i would like to get a large breed dog like a great dane or bull mastiff. i want a dog that is a good family pet and would be good for protection. i'm looking for book recommendations about natural/raw food diets, vaccinations, etc. are there any books out there that cover all the bases?

the one thing i've been trying to find today is how much does it cost to feed a natural or raw diet to a really large dog (weekly/monthly)? i've only found a couple of prices online in regards to large breed natural dog food but i don't know how much a large breed eats.

also, any info about pet insurance?

[Sailor]

Well, I feed raw and have a large dog - a GSD who is 95 pounds, all muscle. I would say that it has added $100.00 per month to our grocery budget. We basically feed my dog whatever meat we're eating for dinner, except in raw form. And then he gets extra "goodies" like organ meat and that I actually get free from a butcher I know.

You could feed for less than that. I just hit a sale in Albertson's where the meat was buy one, get one free. I got SO Much stuff - enough to feed my dog for 3 months for less than 100.00. Of course, there's no room in my freezer now!

In terms of protection ... what exactly are you looking for here? A dog that will bark when someone is coming around the house? Most dogs will do that. Or an actual guard dog who will literally guard your house?

Is this your first dog EVER?

Guard dogs, or dogs who have that instinct to protect, require an extra bit of effort in terms of training. Usually, they're very high energy, but because of their guarding instinct, you really have to make sure you can socialize the heck out of this dog, and you can step into the leader role.

I have a GSD, he is a guard dog. We've done Schutzhund ... this is a dog that can take down a grown man. I would never want to put this dog in a situation, where he is alone, and can potentially misinterpret a situation and "protect" the family.

I'm not saying this is what would happen. I don't think my dog would do this. But ... the potential is always there with guard dogs. And you always have to be aware of that potential.

With a GSD this isn't much of a problem, though. My dog follows me around everywhere anyway, so keeping him with me all the time isn't a problem. Dobes are like this too - total velcro dogs. You will never again go to the bathroom alone. Indeed, you will never again be alone.

Anyway, I'm not discouraging you from a dog that has guarding instincts ... just making you aware that they do require more effort, time, energy, training, etc.

I recommend getting a companion dog - not a working dog. They will still bark at intruders, but you won't have to worry about any potential misinterpretations.

In terms of some questions to ask yourself - how much time can your family devote to a dog? Can you handle a very high energy dog? What about a dog that may need mental stimulation so as not to remain bored (and therefore destructive)? Realistically, how much training and exercise time will you be able to devote to a dog on a DAILY basis? Are you planning on getting a puppy? Or an adult dog? For a lot of big dogs, puppyhood lasts two years. And, depending on the breed, puppyhood can be quite mouthy and leave scars on hands (I have them!).

For me, the most important component in picking a dog is not just personality but also exercise needs. I sort of wish I had thought about this when getting my dog. I adore my dog. But, he's a working GSD. His exercise needs are enormous! We run 6 to 10 miles every morning. Do training in the afternoon. And we go play fetch for an hour at the dog beach in the evenings. We also play games inside, though they're more mental ones, i.e. I hide something and he finds it. These are my dog's BASIC exercise needs. Fun, lol.

[Nicole915]

Sailor, you always give such great advice =)

I'll address the pet insurance stuff. I'm a vet, I practice in a very progressive hospital, with a highly compliant clientele. To be concise, pet insurance is a huge pain in the tuckus. Sadly, we don't interface with the insurance company at all anymore, we just invoice and try to help through the client. Our admin staff was spending lots of man hours and getting very little good results for our clients. More and more claims are being refused because they are 'inherent issues with the breed'.

On one hand, I TOTALLY get that as humans we're doing a lot of damage to dogs when we breed certain ways (don't get me started on english bulldogs!) but the contracts that the clients sign don't spell out the parameters of the coverage very well. I suspect that the average client would be better served by socking that $30 a month away in a separate account, finding a progressive vet, doing bi-annual checkups and managing care proactively.



I would only add that if you choose to do raw, you will be well served to find a vet who can help you design a well balanced diet, determine which if any supplements are needed, and set up periodic blood work to ensure that everything is working well for your pet. There ARE good vets out there who will happily help you manage a barf diet, and manage it well. A poorly managed raw diet (or any diet, for that matter!) can be disastrous, even fatal, so finding the right DVM to utilize as a resource will be key.

If you decide to go the natural route, there are some great foods out there. Best course of action is to visit local pet stores for options, then research those brands. More expensive doesn't really mean better food. As much as I hate to admit it, most of my patients that live well into their twilight years are on foods like Purina or Diamond. There is something to be said for the fact that Purina spends more money on researching animal nutrition than every other dog food manufacturer. Now if only they'd make the ingredients match the quality.

[SquishyKitty]

I would look into training and the time and money requirements for it. We got our first dog, a rottweiler, in Feb. She is an awesome dog and we love having her, but we knew absolutely NOTHING about training her or socializing. We contacted a local trainer and started working with her on the Canine Good Citizen class, and even though she's passed the test we still work with the trainers. We recently got asked to participate in the local K9 Search and Rescue league here in the area. I'm actually pretty excited about it.

Food is important, but we don't feed raw. I have done a lot of research and we feed a combination of dry, high quality food, mixed with low sodium broth or fresh veggies. Our dogs are completely spoiled lol. We are worried about the weight on all the dogs, as the Rottweiler breed has a tendency to become overweight easily, and our one french bulldog has a very hard time breathing (horrible breeding, but we love the dickens out of him) so being overweight makes it harder on him.

I would love to feed Orijen, but I can't find it here to save my life. I've checked multiple pet stores and grocery stores. Right now I feed them a combination of Newmans Own natural adult dog food, and Nutro (new brand), but I think I'm going to go back to Purina because the dogs just won't eat the nutro. I guess it doesn't taste that good lol.

We haven't looked into pet insurance, we were told we should, but our dogs are young yet and we aren't sure it's worth it to be honest. We have a fantastic vet who doesn't charge a ton, and has great hours on top of it.

We didn't get a dog for protection, and although our rottie *looks* intimidating, she couldn't hurt a fly (unless she stepped on their toe). She has a tough bark and a huge head and neck, so that's a decent deterrent right there. If you're planning to get a gaurd dog, I recommend training and training and training. And more training. It's a very delicate balance between a good gaurd dog and a well-socialized dog that isn't aggressive.

You'll also want to consider how much exercise you'll be able to give the dogs. We alternate mornings with our dogs, walking 2 miles at 5 am and another 2 in the evening. Our trainers mantra is "A well-exercised dog is a well-behaved dog" and I fully believe it.

With the larger breeds like Mastiffs and Great Danes, you really have to be careful with their joints. Our dog is 100 lbs and we're worried that eventually she'll develop hip problems, which are prevalent in larger breeds, and especially in purebreds. We are prepared to have a lot of medical issues between our frenchie's breathing problems (He was also crated for the majority of his 1.5 years before we got him, so we aren't sure that his hips developed correctly but only time will tell) and our rottie's potential hip problems, so we'll have to wait and see.

If you live in an area where you aren't able to exercise regularly, the smaller breeds are sometimes better. I always caution against getting a giant breed as the first dog because they are a TON of work, and kind of take over your life until you all settle in. Our dog is a larger breed, and our days/weekends still kind of revolve around them even though it's been almost a year.

[russsk]

Pet insurance is a joke. I got it with my first dog. I was still in college, and wanted it mostly for emergencies. Well, we had an emergency. Bill was 1,500, and the insurance reimbursed me less than 200. Nothing was denied, but the way they do things is pretty sneaky, IMO. For instance, the chart will say that the cover up to $200 per incident of gastroenteritis (I'm making this up). So you think, ok, that's reasonable. But on another sheet, buried in the fine print, it actually says that they will cover a percentage of that amount (I think mine was 40 percent). And if your dog ever sees a vet for the same condition again, even if its completely unrelated, you'll have to fight to get reimbursed for anything. Because it's now a pre-existing condition. So yeah, total waste of time.

[greenmagick]

I will try to come back to this thread with some book recommendations. i will say though, that the best info i have found on RAW is on the internet. I have been to several vets over the years with my dogs (been feeding raw for almost 8 years now) and they all comment on on healthy they are and how great their teeth are, etc. I have never had a vet discourage RAW or tell me I needed to so something different. I do raw meaty bones, raw meat, some organs and green tripe....a bit of salmon oil as I dont have a source for good raw fish. I recently started supplementing with MSM as my older lab mix was starting to get stiff, and though I dont think its totally needed, I give it to my great dane pup occasionaly as well. There is a huge yahoo group for raw feeders with a plethora of info.

As far as costs, well, even without me buying in bulk, it is still cheaper than any grain free kibble, or even moderate to higher priced grain inclusive formulas. I pay for the bulk of my food (chicken scraps, chicken back, leg quarters, and pork spare ribs) about .59 to.79 cents a lb.

Also, a lot of previous posters mentioned exercise. Obviously it is very important, but in general, giant breeds tend to require less than most other breeds. There is variance in lines and individual dogs, but my great dane is one of the calmest laziest pups I have ever seen, and she comes from pretty strong agility lines.

I also, would stay away from working lines unless you are very experienced with them. The dogs are great, but are very driven and require a lot more of their owners. Do be very careful when getting your dog.....make sure it a reputable rescue or reputable breeder. A breeder should be doing health tests (not vet checked but through an organizations like OFA), showing their dogs (and winning!), be active in the breed, etc.

And finally....read up on dogs and dog behavior. There is a lot of outdated advice floating around. Check out authors like Suzanne Clothier, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson. Ian Dunbar has one of his books available as a free pdf...it is pretty basic but very throrough Before and After You Get Your Puppy

[desertpenguin]

thanks for the replies everyone! and thanks for the pdf's, i saved them and will read them asap.

i'm not sure that we will go with a purebred dog. we might end up just getting a mutt from the shelter. haven't made any definitive decisions as to whether we'll get a puppy or an adult dog. my dad thinks it's imperative that we get a puppy so that it can bond best with our boys but i think there's pros and cons to a puppy and i'm not opposed to the idea of getting a dog that already has some obedience training, house trained, etc. i took a couple of breed selector tests and one of the dogs that seemed to come up every time was a standard poodle. lol.

i have two sons, an almost 5 yo and a 1 yo. i'm not opposed to getting a medium-large dog but wouldn't want to get a small dog because of the boys. ime they do better with larger dogs than smaller dogs.

we are buying a house and we will have a decent sized fenced-in yard and close to some parks. i would be able to spend an hour or two exercising the dog every day.

good to know that the pet insurance is a waste. i will be asking around for local vet suggestions. hopefully someone at our hfs will be able to give us a rec.

[desertpenguin]

Originally Posted by Sailor

Is this your first dog EVER?

well, yes and no. my step mother had two adult siberian huskies and an adult chow when i was young but i was not responsible for any of their care. i walked them occasionally but that was it. when i was a teenager my dad bought me a chihuahua and i house trained her but didn't do any other training than that. when i moved out i left her with my dad because a year after we got her my dad got another chihuahua and they bonded, but i wasn't willing to take my dad's chihuahua cuz he pisses all over the place. she passed away a few years ago from tainted dog treats from China.

[FancyNancy]

have you thought about trying Chicken Soup for the dog lover's soul? It is all natural and made with fresh ingredients and comes in wet and dry formulas- might be a good option for your new dog Good luck!~

[Oubliette8]

I have yet to find one book that has all the info I want in it. For a good general overview, I thought Victoria Stillwell's book "It's Me or The Dog" was amazing.

If you want to feed raw, the best place to look is on the internet. There are TONS of raw feeding groups and message boards. I would find one with large breed members as giant breeds require different nutrition than other dogs, particularly in puppyhood. There are also many different raw feeding philosophies, not limited to BARF and Prey Model. Doing some internet reading would get you up to speed on what each involves, and then you can find appropriate book recommendations from there.

Kibblewise, Giant breeds need special nutrition, particularly as pups. There are many large breed formulas out there that are not so great. While I love grain free, its also generally inappropriate for a giant breed puppy. I work in the pet industry and am particularly interested in pet food. I've heard the absolute best things about Eagle Pack for giant breed dogs. They have a very nice holistic line that I would feel comfortable recommending to anyone (I'm extremely picky). I've had many owners and breeder of giant dogs tell me that they have heard that most of the dogs who live past 10 years in their breed that they know, are eating EP. They have excellent information on their website last i looked on how the formulated their giant breed foods, and how it specifically prevents the joint and growth issues that plague giant breed puppies.

Vaccination wise, read the AAHA guidelines here- http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf
Also, look up Jean Dodds, who is the expert on alternate vaccines in dogs.

I would NOT recommend getting a giant breed for protection work, particularly as this is basically a first dog. Most people will respect a large dog based on looks alone, training it for protection work is an extra liability for the dog and your family, and not something I would recommend a beginner, or the average pet owner, get into.

Exercise wise- most giant breeds actually require LESS exercise than smaller dogs. Danes for instance can be quite content in an apartment with a few walks. During the puppy period, it is essential to monitor their exercise to prevent injury. Most people do not recommended heavy exercise, or any type of jumping for giant breed pups. Exercise can actually injure them seriously, generally it is only recommended that they play normally, no extra exercise routine like running, jogging, long hikes, even long games of fetch, etc because it would be unduly stressful to the young dog.

Cost wise, most dog food gives a recommended amount on the bag. Its different for all foods, generally though, higher quality foods you feed much less of. To get a rough idea of the price per day to feed foods, use this formula-(price per bag * weight of 1 cup (in pounds) * number of recommended cups per day)/weight of the bag (in pounds)

That will give you the price/day
For the weight of one cup, I weighed a cup of the kibble I was feeding, I figured weight can't vary too drastically across kibbles
For the # of recommended cups, I used the lowest recommended # of cups/day for my weight dog. Normally with food, I find you have to feed even less than that in actual practice (Unless your dog is exceptionally active, or prone to being thing)

You might try it to compare the brands you like and see what results you get.

A dog of the size you are considering will probably need between 3-8+cups per day depending on the dogs activity level, their size, and the quality of food being fed.

I would also strongly recommend training classes for a dog of the size you are considering (all dogs really) So you'll want to read up on training methods and see what you agree with, and then look into local trainers of the same philosophy. I'm a big fan of positive reinforcement.

For added research, I would recommend the following-
- Join some message boards or groups for the breeds you are interested in. I try to join a few because different groups will have different dog-rearing philosophies, so you can get a wide view of how these breeds are, and what its like to live with them.
-Contact some breeders of the breeds you are interested in. I send a polite email telling them who I am, why I'm interested in their breed, and any breed specific questions you may have. If a breed is not going to be a good fit for your family, they'll generally let you know. Its also a good way to learn about breed quirks you might not be able to live with (stubborn, drool, tails that knock things off furniture, grooming requirements, etc) or health problems you don't feel prepared to risk (maybe the breed is prone to cancer, heart problems, etc) Generally breeders are THRILLED that you're doing research before even considering purchasing a dog, and go out of their way to help. They may let you spend some time getting to know their dogs, which can be invaluable, and if you find another naturally minded breeder, they can mentor you (this is becoming more common among dog show folks) A bonus is that when you ARE ready for a pup, you have a good relationship with local breeders if you choose to go that route

- Look into reading the Whole Dog Journal. My library carries it with the magazines. Its an excellent periodical that covers all kinds of natural topics, from a yearly top foods list, to flea control, to training, to alternative health care. They accept no outside advertising as well. Because of this, they only make money on subscriptions, so you are highly unlikely to find copies. You may need to subscribe if your library does not have it.

[SubliminalDarkness]

Just wanted to throw in a quick vote for adopting a rescue/shelter dog. We now have two rescue dogs.... a husky mix we got as a 2 year old adult, and recently a mastiff/St. Bernard mix puppy. I'm not a huge fan of breeding dogs to be family pets, so I could never bring myself to support that directly. But I know opinions differe on that one

[desertpenguin]

i always get the best advice on mdc! thanks!

i have briefly checked out some websites for breed specific rescues here in OK and looked at petfinder for dogs to adopt on our area. i definitely would rather adopt. i don't think it's as important as my dad thinks for us to get a puppy, so that opens up a lot more options for us.

[Oubliette8]

Just wanted to point out, that even if you adopt, breeders are a GREAT source of information. Many are already involved in breed rescue themselves. All my dogs have so far been rescues, but I've found a wealth of information in breeders. To the good ones, its not about selling you a dog, but about educating people, especially potential owners, about the breed.

[Noelle C.]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

A breeder should be ... showing their dogs (and winning!)...

How much do you know about the aesthetic standards and how they impact the health of breeds? Do you realize that certain aesthetic qualities are harmful to the dogs?

The extreme slanted back of the American German Shepherd, for instance, drastically increases its likelihood of hip dysplasia. The European German Shepherds have nice, even backs with weight better distributed over both front and back legs. But these European dogs wouldn't stand a chance in an American dog show and would be laughed out of the ring.

For King Charles Cavalier Spaniels, the showing aesthetic is for a tiny head. So tiny, in fact, that more than 90% of KCCSs suffer from syringomyelia. The brain herniates into the opening at the base of the skull with the spinal cord. This is a painful condition that can include paralysis.

For pugs, their extremely short noses, highly desired in the show ring, lead to difficulty breathing and leaves them particularly susceptible to heat. Heat as low as 80 degrees is dangerous. Their flat noses also contribute to a great number of eye problems. Those cute little spirally tails, another desirable aesthetic feature, are due to hemivertebrae. The vertebrae are wedge-shaped. This is intentionally breed into them to get the cute little cork-screw tail. But do you think it's confined only to the tail? Oh no.

Try to breed the slat backs our of German Shepherds, the tiny skulls out of KCCSs, and flat noses and wedge-shaped vertebrae out of pugs and you'l have healthier dogs, but dogs that won't win in the ring.

The list goes on and on. Then, to make it worse, once these physical traits have been breed into a group, inbreeding becomes common to make sure that the new pups are likely to have the same traits.

Dog shows are as much about physical traits as beauty pageants. Who cares about the health risks to anyone (and pageants carry them in spades) as long as you can LOOK perfect.


I have two golden retrievers. One of them has had one litter and will have another down the road. The other is her daughter who suffered an upper respiratory illness at three weeks and the resulting oxygen deprivation left her retarded. This girl needed us and likely wouldn't have adapted well to a new home with as slow as she is. She's spayed. Mama isn't. Both are physically very healthy with excellent temperaments. The retarded one has the looks of a show dog and would be a serious contender in the ring. Her physical health is prime. Her mental state? She's the dumbest dog I've ever met. Her mom is slightly too small for shows. She wouldn't stand a chance because she's fairly petite as far as the breed goes. But she's a wonderful, healthy dog, and her pups were/are the same. Going by the show-thing, the one likely to have problems is the one who should be bred. Screw that.

We didn't let a single pup go until they were at least three months, and we took a full six months to find homes for them all, turning down over 100 people in the process. They were vetted, had all their shots, and basic training and socializing. Yet according to some, I'm a bad breeder because I refuse to participate in canine beauty pageants and support an industry that promotes unhealthy and deadly characteristics.

Imagine if the only humans allowed to breed were the ones with excellent joints and eyes and who at the top of some superficial list of what humans SHOULD look like, from height and weight to color of their skin, noses, and hair. Some physical characteristics would be exaggerated, like very large boobs that cause back pain, to perfectly-shaped ears that may even require surgery to cut into the "right" shape. Who cares how strong their hearts and lungs are, family history of cancer, etc.. Who care about their intelligence of personalities. As long as they look pretty and have excellent joints and eyes, the rest doesn't matter.

That also describes your typical dog show. And it's why the Jack Russel Terrier Club of America fights to keep their dogs from being a recognized breed by the AKC. The day that happens, standards will be set and many people will start trying to force the dogs into a mold without regard to their actual health. That's right, JRTs are not an official breed.

Showing dogs is not at all indicative of a good breeder.

[Nicole915]

Showing dogs is the worst indicator of a good breeder, except every other indicator. The way I think of it is that its the equivalent of peer reviewed research. While it is not foolproof and there will be some animals who are clearly not ideal specimens, the show breeders are far more likely to have taken preventative measures like hip and eye certifications.

There is no question in my mind that the patients I see that come from confirmed blood lines are much healthier than those from 'responsible breeders who don't show' aka back yard breeders. That said, some of the extreme measures (hello, english bulldogs) we take should be criminal. I don't work with breeders who's dogs must be c-sectioned in order to breed, but if presented with one who needed medical intervention I would perform the procedure.

As a matter of trivia, the Jack Russell is certainly an AKC breed, as seen here, however the breed changed names to be more historically accurate.

Desertpenguin, if you're having a hard time finding a DVM that you like, I have a former classmate who practices in OKC... I can send you her name if you're interested. She was really excellent clinically, and a great person in general. I believe last I heard from her she was also doing some acupuncture in her clinic.

[greenmagick]

If one is breeding dogs and not showing or competing in some other sport with them, they are a BYB. Yes some breeds it as gotten out of hand, and there are bad breeders who show. The whole point of conformation showing is to prove breeding stock. It is to fit the standard of yes, looks, but moreso structure, temperment, etc. Again, sometimes this is overlooked but it is the idea behind it.

The point is to have impartial judges evaluate your dog.

And no, I cant imagine humans being bred this way....but we are not talking about humans, we are talking about dogs that we as humans domesticated and selectively bred into what they are today. It is our responsibility to not pass on genetic defects, bad temperment, poor structure, etc. And before you say oh, there are all kinds of genetic defects in the show ring, well, not from reputable breeders. A reputable breeder weeds those dogs out of there breeding program.

oh, and many breeders (and ones I would look at) dont just show in conformation. The breeder of my dane also does agility, obedience, therapy dog work, and I believe she is getting into some tracking....so well rounded dogs. Again, not saying everyone who shows has a good dog behind them....it is one of the indicators.

[desertpenguin]

everyone has made some interesting points in regards to breeding. i'm not sure what to think about it so i guess i'm glad i have my heart more set on adopting from a rescue/shelter instead.

Originally Posted by Nicole915

Desertpenguin, if you're having a hard time finding a DVM that you like, I have a former classmate who practices in OKC... I can send you her name if you're interested. She was really excellent clinically, and a great person in general. I believe last I heard from her she was also doing some acupuncture in her clinic.

that would be very much appreciated, thank you!