My Mother disowned me! - Page 5

[paxye]

Originally Posted by Zenful

If you truly don't feel guilty then why are you going back and forth with me right now? Why does this subject interest you at all if you have it all figured out?

Sorry I thought it was a discussion/ debate/ difference of opinions that had led to this... I guess I was mistaken.

My point was...

I don't think the OP did anything wrong by not telling her mom. If she felt that she wanted it to remain private that was up to her.
I don't think that she lied about her birth just because the subject didn't come up and things were assumed. If the mom wanted to really know, she could have asked.
I also don't think that everything has to be out in the open and needs to be discussed even if it is just to say it is not up for discussion. There are just some things that some people would rather remain private, even if it goes against the societal norm.
And finally, I don't think that the OP should feel any responsibility in her mothers reaction for making assumptions.

I'm bowing out now

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by Zenful

Why don't you just tell them this? Are you afraid they're going to stalk you or something? In my eyes, if you were to come to me and say the last sentence of this quote then it would be very easy for me to respect it/leave you be.

That is a really nice thought that people will just be all nice and loving once you tell them things and respect you. Unfortunately that isn't the reality for a lot of us. And for us that have family that we have to worry about calling 911 or what have you the first need is to protect ourselves and our baby. Having people harass you that you are putting your own life and baby's life in danger is harmful to a pregnant women - no matter if those thoughts and words are spoken out of love.

[Kidzaplenty]

Yeah, I honestly found that statement to be a bit nieve.

I have family that could, and have, called CPS, because of my HBing, not even mentioning UCing. So, yeah. I guess I am "worried about them stalking me or something". But, even if they did nothing beyond threatening, or even just harrassing, why should I have to put myself though that? It is not healthy for my mental state, and quite honestly can (and many times will) have a huge impact on labor.

That is why I believe omitting by circumstance, and sometimes even blatently misleading or lying, is the best thing for someone UCing. Most people, because of our society, just can not understand our desire or need to birth alone, or worse, think they are being of some sort of "help" by constantly "reminding" us of the dangers that birth can entail. When we have that sort of family or friends, it is in our (and our baby's) best interest to NOT say anything (or even to mislead or lie when necessary).

And their feelings are not my responsibility in the end. If they feel "betrayed" or hurt, then that is due to their inability to see beyond themselves and how they had no part in the decision in the first place.

And just for the record. I HAVE a daughter that is old enough to give birth (19). And if she were to make some decision that I strongly disagreed with (say, an elective c/s for convenience sake), and she knew it, and she chose to keep that a secret until after the birth for fear of me trying to change her mind (which I would). Well, let's just say I would not be happy, but I would also not feel "betrayed" or even hurt. I would love her. I would cry for her. I would try and help her make a different decision next time. But, I would stand by her side. Totally and completely. So, I CAN put myself in the other shoe. And I still believe what I believe.

[zoebird]

i agee. part of this is about understanding or considering how an individual will respond.

although i decided to tell my mom, i knew what her response would be. she would be upset, make herself sick, and keep trying to convince me to get a midwife. i also knew that my ILs would fret and try to guilt trip us.

i did not expect anyone to disown me or to call CPS, but they *could* have and then i would have been like the op--"i can't believe she responded in this way!"

and it's true. a lot of people do NOT respect your wishes or needs. each of us knows what will work for us, and we do consider how others react. not everyone is willing to leave things be.

[MsBlack]

Hmmmm....

Yes, I agree, there are disagreements in this discussion that are not going to be unified by more talk--there are various shades in between, but basically we have 2 'sides': some of us feel strongly that what birth choice we make is no one else's business until we decide it is. There are some who feel just as strongly that it would be the only honest and loving thing to do, to tell our loved ones all about our birth and parenting decisions.

On one hand, I can see the good in extending the discussion this far, because people have taken the time to fully articulate their positions--and that can be useful to anyone interested in this topic.

On the other hand....to me at some point there is simply disrespect of others at the base of continuing to try to persuade. There is a sense of wholly misplaced moral superiority and a need to be right that in my opinion is every bit as destructive of relationships (if not MORE SO) as other communication choices can be.

I will say this, though....as a person who likes to think deeply about stuff and is an avid (sometimes overbearing!) communicator/persuader: I learned when to back off (most of the time!), when to shut my mouth or still my busily typing fingers--remembering that what is 'wholly right' for me, is not necessarily right for anyone else--or at least, not in exactly the same way. Remembering that the Universe is a huge and highly diverse place, and that it takes all kinds.

Just my (as usual rambly) 2 cents

[Zenful]

Ms. Black--yes, there does come a point when persuasion becomes destructive. Although I see things a certain way and it would be difficult to change my point of view, I also am open to suggestion. Other people don't seem to be that open, but whatever, what can ya do. Also, have you ever thought of becoming a judge? You definitely have the knack for it

Also, in regards to my comment about establishing boundaries when it comes to having a UC, I guess I just have a hard time wrapping my head around how someone who calls themselves "family" or "friends" would go to such extremes. I guess if they really felt it was endangering the lives of the mother or child then it would make sense that they'd want to "help" by calling 911 or what have you. Still, though, I feel like if a person were to say "this is my body, this is my birth, this is my baby, back off" then not many people would cross that line. It depends on how you say it and the place you're coming from, though. If you're afraid of their reaction then you're not setting solid boundaries. The way it's interpreted is more like, "Please don't hurt me or my baby," which if a person is hell bent on making sure you're "safe" then they're not liable to respect that much. If you come from a place of firmly *knowing* that this is the safest decision for you and your baby then this is what will be communicated, and others are more likely to respect that. It seems that too often UCers are wishy washy about their birthing choice and/or allow other people in their lives to influence their decisions. I'm not saying that this is "wrong", just that when we're not firm about our choices and our reasons for doing it then we're more likely to come across resistance or outright negativity from others who don't share the same viewpoint.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad, just giving my viewpoint if it helps anyone with boundaries and understanding what to do about them. Also, I'm an intuitive healer so if anyone would like help with establishing firm boundaries then I'd be happy to help. Oftentimes a person has layers of fear and resistance within them that it can be very difficult to do what they need to do in order to establish healthy boundaries, no matter how much they genuinely would like to. Or ya'll can just ignore me and just not tell people

[MsBlack]

Hmmmm. My experience is, most families are a bit nuts if not moreso. That's my professional opinion!!!

You speak of boundary making and keeping as if it were simple--and maybe it is/has been for you, but for lots of us it's not! My family only learned to respect my boundaries after YEARS of my working at it. I come from an ordinary, run of the mill American somewhat addict/codependent strong-opinioned very attached/loving/domineering crowd. It took much repetition on my part, and really in the end just saying "I am not having this conversation with you anymore" and then refuse to discuss anything important to me again (UC, non vax/natural healing, homeschooling, etc). I had to say that to my mom several times, gradually escalating to hanging up on her, walking out on her, etc til I finally just shut that door entirely and forever. My sibs would rush to her rescue, calling me to complain about my disrespect and so forth, "but this is your MOM!" Right. But I am her daughter....doesn't that road go both ways? They actually often sided with her (so it wasn't just her beating on me about my various different choices) but they got it much sooner than mom/dad that I was doing what I was doing no matter what they said. They realized they were unable to manipulate me emotionally into doing as they did..and they let it go.

And gradually my kids got old enough without dying or being defective in any way, wow, actually being quite glowingly healthy and smart and well socialized and all-- so that they could see whatever nutsy behaviour I engaged in, apparently it was either working well or I'd been terribly lucky but in any case it was useless for them to argue against my success (even if it WAS accidental as they mostly preferred to believe for years. Now they realize I'm smart and daring and competent and so forth. Plus of course, they had no wish to drive me away--which apparently my mother could not fathom would ultimately happen if she did not give up her continuous struggle to 'correct' me (control me).

Anyway, it is late and I'm babbling, but I say again--for most of us, it is really not so simple to set boundaries with family and other close people.

In my opinion, the more you care about and are close to someone, the more you will want to know and respect their boundaries (and this will be mutual). In the opinion of The Average Bear as far as I can tell, 'closeness'--especially among fams--seems to mean allowing no boundaries whatsoever, barging in, insisting on continuous full disclosure and the right to argue and demean.

Maybe you were just really lucky with the family you got, to have gotten this far believing that it is a simple matter to give that full disclosure out of a wish to honor 'closeness', while still feeling that it is not hard to get your boundaries respected. Most of us just don't live in that world however.

As for a knack that might make me a good judge, er thanks. I think!

[zoebird]

i think there is also a lot of difference in definitions of terms and so on. and what individual personalities and relational styles are.

obviously, different people consider different things private. different people define "closeness" or how to maintain "closness" differently.

personality-wise, i'm a bit of a loner. this means, actually, that i tend to be quite on my own about things, and also that i keep a lot of things private.

as far as boundaries and privacy goes, i see it as a bunch of circles spreading out from the inner me. at the innermost circle, i am completely alone, or perhaps one might say one with the cosmos or god, but it's my innermost spiritual self. if i may be honest, no one "goes" there.

perhaps to some, this means that i am close to no one, but i don't believe that. i simply believe that there is a space for individuality in this cosmos--and that's where i have it.

outside of that is another ring, and in this ring i have my husband. that's it. my husband. outside of that ring, i have family--but there is a big distance between family and my husband insofar as what i will tell them and what i won't. there are many reaons for this. outside of that is the place of friends, then acquaintances and coworkers, and then beyond that space is the public persona.

emotional closeness is a funny thing for me. i feel emotionally close to my family, even though there is a *lot* that i keep from them due to privacy issues. another aspect of this is them *not* respecting my boundaries.

this is probably because i was once the baby, and so i was close-in, and they had power/influence. and now i've got them out side a bit, and they're not used to that. they want to be where they remember being or where they think they should be, rather than where they are.

i know that my ILs particularly struggle witht he fact that they are no longer mommy/daddy to their 37 yr old son. they realy want him to be a baby still, rather than a man. so, they are even more likely to invade boundaries.

we do defend them, too. the boundaries, that is. in the process of doing so, my family and my ILs have become very angry and offended and "hurt." but the truth is, it is right for them to be held to that boundary, and not put us into a position where they want to "parent" us. at this point, we are autonomous adults who do not need to be parented.

so in htis sort of scenario, my parents want "closeness" defined by an old definition of it, of the parent-child relationship, as opposed to the adult-parent, adult-child relationship. . .which is essentially a relationship between two adults and thus has different boundaries.

the hurt that they feel is only natural, and certainly i would never say that they "shouldn't" feel that way. of course, they have their emotions and those can be difficult.

but it's also important that we enter into a healthy balance and relationship with each other. that may mean both having and respecting certain privacies.

i probably hold more private than a lot of people, being a loner. i probably feel and or/define 'closeness' differently than others--including family who may be hurt by both my needs for privacy and how i hold them close emotionally, which may not be what they want or "enough" for them.

but at the end of the day, it has to be what it has to be. and, if i do get continually harassed, those people--no matter how close they once were--get moved out to a different circle. it's my perrogative, to make my life peaceful. sure, i may loose "closeness" with that person, but it's important to me to maintain my emotional integrity over their feelings or defnitions of closeness or who or what they 'should' be in my life.

[zoebird]

also, i would be interested to hear form the OP--has her mother come back into her life, things having cooled a bit, or is it the same as before? i'm curious to know what her experience is, and i'm curious to know how she's feeling.

and of course, to offer her my support, inso much as i can here.

[MsBlack]

As for your long post just now--Nicely said, Zoebird. ITA

I also wonder what is going on for the OP....this has been a satisfying long discussion with apparent merit for lots of us, but the Instigator has not spoken up in awhile...