So if you don't do time-outs how do you discipline?

[Ldavis24]

DH and I are both extremely newly introduced to the whole gentle discipline thing but are both totally on board with it. It basically goes along with our general parenting philosophies. I also read an article posted on here that made me really think about what message a time-out sends to your child and that message is not something I want my daughter to ever receive. That I conditionally love her and will take that love away at a moments notice when she misbehaves...

So what do we do instead. I know we are supposed to explain and really talk to her about something she may do that she shouldn't have but say she does it again or something? She is only 3 1/2 months old right now but this is obviously something we will be dealing with in the future...As if it weren't obvious as well this is our first LO so it's all new territory to DH and I...

Do you eventually have to do a time out if the LO just isn't getting the message or am I missing something here?

[mamazee]

It takes a change of perspective. Instead of wondering what to do if my dd doesn't do something I'd like, I wonder why she isn't doing what I'd like, and try to work with her on that "why" issue. I look for the cause rather than focusing on the result - on what I want to happen. So, dd doesn't pick up after herself. Instead of saying, "Pick up or time out", I consider why, or at her age ask why. "Why have you left these toys out? I'm afraid I might trip on them, or step on them and break them." And she might say she forgot, and she'll pick them up, or she might say she's in the middle of her book and will pick them up when she's finished, or she might say something else. If she said she just didn't feel like it, I'd ask what was wrong that was making her feel like that, and again that I don't want to trip or break something. We'd discuss it until we reached an agreement. She's been very good at picking up lately because there's a baby in the house and she's afraid the baby could choke on or otherwise get hurt by something. She didn't learn to pick up because I'd punish her if she didn't, she learned to pick up because having a mess of toys causes problems. When a new and more serious potential problem came up, she became very diligent in picking up toys without me ever telling her she had to. She figured that out on her own.

For younger kids, let's say a child hits. Instead of focusing on the behavior (hitting), you could focus on why. Why is the child hitting? Is it a normal behavioral stage? Then hover over the child until that stage is passed so you can keep other children protected. Is there anxiety? Find out what is causing the anxiety and try to solve that. Is there anger over some issue? Find out why the child is angry and try to work with the child on that.

Another perspective issue is whether you believe children are inherently good or bad. Some people believe children are inherently good and we just have to gently guide them and work with them, and some people believe children are inherently bad and that if you don't forcibly stop any behaviors you don't like, that the child will never be good. I believe children are inherently good and that influences my parenting style.

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by mamazee

It takes a change of perspective. Instead of wondering what to do if my dd doesn't do something I'd like, I wonder why she isn't doing what I'd like, and try to work with her on that "why" issue. I look for the cause rather than focusing on the result

I agree.
I try to approach the issue from a different perspective; I don't see it as "misbehavior" or "defiance"; I try not to send the message: I'm right and you (the kid) are wrong. They may have a very valid reason why they are behaving like this. For example, ds watched TV for two hours; I told him he had enough TV time and turned it off. This resulted in a very cranky child who started throwing things in the room. In this situation, I shouldn't have allowed him to watch tv for 2 hours (although being 9 months pregnant I really needed that nap); secondly, I should have allowed him a period of transition, letting him know I would turn it off in 10 minutes or at the end of the show. This is what we did eventually, and he calmed down instantly and we turned off the TV at the end of the show with no complaints at all.

I never put ds in time out and we're getting along pretty well.

[Ldavis24]

Thanks for the input! Definitely made me think even more about the whole thing. I have never asked myself the question of whether I think children are inherently good or bad. I guess now that I think about it I never considered that children could just be bad no matter what. I am interested to meet someone who thinks that children are just plain bad and therefore must be dealt with forcibly.

I look at my landlady's grandson who lives in the house (we're in the upstairs apartment) and he is the most obnoxious little toddler I have ever met. I don't think he's bad but he has never been told no in his life or put in time out or talked to about maybe why he did something or didn't do something. This kid hits, bites, kicks, yells at you, throws things at you, breaks his toys in anger or just generally flips out whenever he doesn't get what he wants and often does even when he is indulged. I look at him and wonder how his mom disciplines and some days I say to myself, let me do the exact opposite of whatever she is trying...

I like the idea of really talking to my DD about her actions and decisions, is it possible to never put your child in a timeout? This article I read just really struck a cord with me about something I hadn't thought about until very recently.

[Violet2]

I haven't read all the responses but at 2yo we rely upon redirection as our primary 'discipline' method. Also, giving words to DD's emotions really seems to help.

We do things like instead of "it's time to go' we say 'let's go get your juice in the car and go home'. I like to try and keep DD forward thinking so she's got something to move toward.

I also find it helpful to review expectations for outings 'you will hold my hand, ride in the cart, no tantrums etc...' This has made a big difference in going out.

It seems that up until 3 or so, most behavior issues truly _are_ developmentally related. So long as you meet the need, you should be able to elicit good behavior.

I always ask 'what does DD need' and that helps me orient my thinking along those lines.

Although as you can see in the other thread, we also take breaks when nothing else is working and DD is in the tantrum death spiral.

V

[alegna]

Redirect, discuss, etc.

My dd is 5 and has never been in a time out. Mostly it wouldn't work for her anyway...

Perhaps you could post some "what-if" scenarios and see how people would handle them?

I am pretty picky about dd having what would be seen as "socially acceptable" behavior and I have not used time outs and strive to avoid all punishments.

-Angela

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

Thanks for the input! Definitely made me think even more about the whole thing. I have never asked myself the question of whether I think children are inherently good or bad. I guess now that I think about it I never considered that children could just be bad no matter what. I am interested to meet someone who thinks that children are just plain bad and therefore must be dealt with forcibly.

I look at my landlady's grandson who lives in the house (we're in the upstairs apartment) and he is the most obnoxious little toddler I have ever met. I don't think he's bad but he has never been told no in his life or put in time out or talked to about maybe why he did something or didn't do something. This kid hits, bites, kicks, yells at you, throws things at you, breaks his toys in anger or just generally flips out whenever he doesn't get what he wants and often does even when he is indulged. I look at him and wonder how his mom disciplines and some days I say to myself, let me do the exact opposite of whatever she is trying...

I like the idea of really talking to my DD about her actions and decisions, is it possible to never put your child in a timeout? This article I read just really struck a cord with me about something I hadn't thought about until very recently.

First, I would never choose how to parent based on doing the opposite of what someone else does. Just because what they're doing (or not doing) isn't working doesn't mean the opposite will.

There are a lot of kids, from what I've seen, who get this weird style of parenting where they're indulged and there are no expectations whatsoever, and then occasionally their parents flip out because of the resulting bad behavior and get very punitive. These kids have no idea of what is coming next, and that leads to a lack of internal control.

"Doing nothing" is not gentle discipline. I have expectations. For instance, in the "didn't pick up toys" scenario, just leaving the toys out wouldn't be an option. There's a great deal of power in saying, "The toys are STILL on the ground," or "Sophie, The Toys!" and standing expectantly until they're picked up. She has rolled her eyes and given a dramatic sigh and THEN picked them up, but she's always picked them up. The issue is having an expectation. I don't think you have to punish to enforce that expectation.

Just one time my dd just wouldn't pick up her toys, and I was exasperated. Then she started puking, and I realized the reason she wasn't behaving how I wanted her to was because she was sick, not because she didn't care about how I felt. IMO, we should always try to assume the best possible intention. I assume my dd understands how I feel about toys being left out, and wants to keep her toys picked up, and that if she hasn't at some point it's because of some outside issue - her attention was taken away by something, she's not feeling well, etc. And then I work on that issue. "I see your attention was taken away by your art project. When you find a good point to set it aside for a minute, come out and pick up the toys." If I'm reasonable with her and give her some consideration, she's reasonable with me and gives me consideration.

Now, I will say that when she was younger, say 3 or 4, I did have to help her pick up toys. She didn't do it alone. I was patient and just said, "time to pick up toys" and started picking them up. There were occasionally days at that age where she didn't help and I ended up picking them up alone, and I didn't sweat it. I didn't have the same expectation at 3 and 4 as I have at 7. I was afraid that if I got into power struggles at that age over picking up toys, it would always be a power struggle, and it was best just to relax on it until she was a bit older. So I'd say, "Pick your battles" is another thing, and also choosing the best timing. What is going to be a huge battle at one age might not be a big deal at another, but on the other hand if you wait too long you might miss a window of opportunity. Like, if you've never made a 12-year-old pick up, it might be hard to get it started.

[lnitti]

My 5 year old gets way out of control. Never in a million years would she pick up her toys when I ask. She refuses to do anything around the house that would help out. She yells, kicks, hits, screams, throws things (chairs and such included). It's is very frustrating.

I have resorted to a version of time out. I put her in the little one's room with the gate closed. I tell her she can come back to play when she stops screaming and regains control of her self. Sometimes she stays there and throws even more of a fit until she gets it all out. Then she comes back to play. There is no set time - just when she is ready. And there is no talking to her about anything when she is out of control like this.

I really don't want to do time outs, but for the safety of everyone involved, I do need to separate her until she is done.

[mamazee]

That's the kind of power struggle I was trying to avoid. Kids, particularly around 3.5 to 4 or so, seem to fight to the death doing anything you try to force them to do, and if a power struggle starts, they'll hold onto it for a long, long time. Which is why I avoid power struggles. It just isn't worth it, IMO. Not forcing = not fighting to the death. Then it becomes an issue of, "Well I'm bigger and I have more power so I'm sure I can find some way of forcing this to happen whether you want to or not." And yeah, I'm sure there's some way to force things to happen, whether time-outs, or taking things away, or whatever, but that isn't who I want to be.

Again, to the OP, you have to look at your own philosophy. Not everyone agrees with me about this, and that's fine. Time outs can be done pretty gently, and when done gently IMO fall within the realm of gentle discipline. But as to your question about how and why some people avoid time-outs, that's my answer. I'd suggest reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn as well.

[lnitti]

Originally Posted by mamazee

That's the kind of power struggle I was trying to avoid. Kids, particularly around 3.5 to 4 or so, seem to fight to the death doing anything you try to force them to do, and if a power struggle starts, they'll hold onto it for a long, long time. Which is why I avoid power struggles. It just isn't worth it, IMO. Not forcing = not fighting to the death. Then it becomes an issue of, "Well I'm bigger and I have more power so I'm sure I can find some way of forcing this to happen whether you want to or not." And yeah, I'm sure there's some way to force things to happen, whether time-outs, or taking things away, or whatever, but that isn't who I want to be.

mamazee, if this part was in regards to my post, I just wanted to clarify that there is no power struggle. I've never forced dd to do anything. She just seems to loose control over anything. Maybe she couldn't build her lego building quite the way she wanted. Or maybe she couldn't find a toy she was looking for. Next thing you know she is screaming at the top of her lungs and throwing what ever is nearby - a chair, a doll stroller, the whole bucket of legos, anything and everything, she will do destructive things to our house, etc. It is a safety issue. I have no choice but to separate her.

As far as picking up the toys - either they never get picked up, or I am the one picking them up. It sure would be nice to find a resolution to that issue. I've never expected her to do it on her own, I've always helped (but really that means I've always done it all!)

[mamazee]

Ah, well that's really just a tantrum. I had tantrums until I was 8 !! I don't know why. The bigger kids are when they have them, the worse they are because the kids are stronger.

[Ldavis24]

Once again thanks for the great replies...Let me just say that I was purely joking when I said I wanted to do the opposite of whatever that mother does

Also I will certainly be looking into this Alfie...(last name?) fellow, I have to go to the bookstore anyway so it's an excuse to buy a new book!

I am wondering though most of these posts are in reference to children that are 2,3 or 4 and up...What about the 18 m/o that doesn't entirely understand the idea of having a nice conversation, does it still work with very young children, can you simply modify the whole talk it out approach or redirect? or are children are 2 all angels? I don't know mine mostly just likes sucking on anything in sight right now

[skueppers]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

I am wondering though most of these posts are in reference to children that are 2,3 or 4 and up...What about the 18 m/o that doesn't entirely understand the idea of having a nice conversation, does it still work with very young children, can you simply modify the whole talk it out approach or redirect? or are children are 2 all angels? I don't know mine mostly just likes sucking on anything in sight right now

Well, here are some sample situations relating to kids under the age of 2, and what I did about them:

* Playing with food, dropping food on floor -- decide child is done eating and take food away, or give them less food to begin with.
* Touching things they shouldn't be touching, climbing on the table, etc. -- baby-proofing. There was a period of time when I put all of my dining room chairs on top of my dining room table every day, and/or corralled them in the kitchen behind the baby gate.
* Child running away in store -- child rides in cart.
* Child hits other kids at playgroup -- try to determine cause and teach child better way of handling situation, but if whatever it is can't be resolved, take child home.

The only situation where I use some variant of a time-out is when the child is having a major tantrum and is hitting me. In that situation, I find that physical separation between me and the child is the only thing that stops them from hitting me, and I'm just not OK with being hit. We can talk about it (or not) when they are calmer.

[itsmyturn]

We use time-outs when our children are overstimulated and need to be removed from a situation.
The time-out is not meant as a punishment but as a tool to allow them to settle down and gain control of their actions.
We try to arrange quiet time before the melt down occurs, but sometimes we miss the cue and alone time becomes required.

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by mamazee

There are a lot of kids, from what I've seen, who get this weird style of parenting where they're indulged and there are no expectations whatsoever, and then occasionally their parents flip out because of the resulting bad behavior and get very punitive. These kids have no idea of what is coming next, and that leads to a lack of internal control.

Barbara Coloroso talks about this style of parenting & its results in her book "Kids are Worth It!" which I think is a great book ABOUT parenting (not a manual, but a thoughtful guide). Definitely worth a read, OP.

For your question... I have a sample size of 1 but I haven't yet had a situation where I felt a time out was the only possible response. I've also seen time outs done really well by moms I really respect, so I'm not hard core against them - I just prefer other ways.

What probably have been the most powerful tools for me are

• the verbal techniques in "How to talk so kids will listen..." (obviously not at 18 mos)

• the connection techniques in Playful Parenting, especially giving planned time to "role reversal" so that my son gets some playful time each every so often ordering me around

• the insight from "The Secret of Parenting" that quite often, simply standing there in a calm pose of boredom tinged with the very merest hint of disapproval, is powerful. And also the idea that you don't actually have to win every battle - sometimes just SAYING you're annoyed at the lack of cooperation produces cooperation the NEXT time.

For an 18 month old honestly I think redirection and parental thinking ahead are the best tools. I do not personally believe that 18 month olds develop bad lifelong habits or are in need of punishment or correction other than to be kept safe and keep those around them safe.

I am not sure I believe kids are born good but I do believe they are born wired to keep their parents' attention and if at all possible approval, because that is how they would survive in the wild.

[Violet2]

Originally Posted by Ldavis24

Once again thanks for the great replies...Let me just say that I was purely joking when I said I wanted to do the opposite of whatever that mother does

Also I will certainly be looking into this Alfie...(last name?) fellow, I have to go to the bookstore anyway so it's an excuse to buy a new book!

I am wondering though most of these posts are in reference to children that are 2,3 or 4 and up...What about the 18 m/o that doesn't entirely understand the idea of having a nice conversation, does it still work with very young children, can you simply modify the whole talk it out approach or redirect? or are children are 2 all angels? I don't know mine mostly just likes sucking on anything in sight right now

18mo are pretty easy to redirect and distract so long as you do it before they get too deep into the tantrum. Have a 'bright shiny object' plan where you've got a few fun toys/activities at the ready. ETA: Fingerplay songs are also great distractions and a good repertoire can get you through a grocery store trip.

I also did a lot of supervision like consistently removing DD from the top of her desk. A week of that and she gave it up but I had to be consistent which was a lot of work.

They also usually understand a lot of what you say. Keep it simple and repeat often. Cave man talk. 'No hit. Be gentle' or 'Sit please' which I said a lot in response to standing on furniture.

ETA: Also it's really helpful and important to tell kids what you want them to do as opposed to focusing on what they should stop doing. They may understand no hitting but not be able to figure out what to do which is where be gentle comes in.

Just as much as we want to parent kids on what not to do, they also benefit from explicit instruction on what to do as well.
V

[kcparker]

Re:

I know we are supposed to explain and really talk to her about something she may do that she shouldn't have but say she does it again or something?

Babies and toddlers don't necessarily remember or have the impulse control not to do something again, and we just repeat ourselves, reminding DS what the boundaries and expectations are, helping him return to them when he strays. I have probably had to ask my son to sit in his chair at the dinner table instead of perching on the arms at least 5 times every meal for the last few months (we don't strap him in), and I will just keep telling him, "We need to practice good manners at the dinner table. This means feet under the table, bottom on the chair, and kicking mama isn't polite either. If your tummy is full and you are done, you can ask to be excused and get down from the table." Calm, boring, repetitive. Putting him in a time-out for something like that would not be productive as it would escalate the conflict and not help instill the behavior we want him to exhibit. For the first time last night, he said, "My tummy full. May please be 'scuuuuused?" So, there is progress without timeouts!

I think we must have an easy-going kid, but we have never had to use time-outs with him. If he's doing something we don't want him to do, we can usually redirect or distract him. Other tactics that work -
- whisper to him,
- do something goofy to get him to stop what he's doing and pay attention to us,
- go to him and physically assist/move him instead of just talking at him from across the room,
- take away the thing he's throwing/using to hit the dog/smash into the floor and replace it with something else (here, throw these craft pompoms instead of the keys, hit the floor with these silicone spoons instead of the potato masher) or take it and say, "Let's practice gently handing this to each other," and super-exaggerate how gently I lay it back in his hand,
- separate him from the dog when he's being a pest,
- ask him to help us with something,
- offer him a hug or ask for one from him ( this is actually good for when I am starting to want to yell at him),
- talk a lot about polite and gentle behavior (not that I think he totally understands, but it can't hurt, right?)

He has only had a few short bouts of anything approaching tantrums, but I suppose they will be coming along here at some point...

[Pepper44]

We follow many of the ideas mentioned here and have never done any time outs, except in the occasional extreme situation where I have needed to just be away from DD for a few minutes to cool down on a really bad day.

I always try to step back and think of the reason she's acting a certain way. It helps also to acknowledge your own frustrations or feelings about what's going on, then put those to the side and focus on your child. For example when she was smaller and she hit another child (which actually rarely happened) my first reaction would be frustration and embarrassment. It's hard to focus on why she might have hit in the first place when I can't get past my own reaction. Hitting for my DD meant she was overwhelmed and/or frustrated, and she would need to be removed from the situation or given her own toys elsewhere to play with, then she would be fine after 5 minutes or so.

As a young toddler we usually just redirected her. You have to decide what things are important battles and what you can just let go of. My DD loved to rip all the DVD cases off of the shelf, and instead of punishing her to teach her to stop we just let her enjoy it. If it had really caused an issue, we would have boxed up the cases until the phase passed. There were some things that required her to learn no though--running in the street for example. I told her "no, dangerous" in a serious and stern voice, then redirected to the sidewalk, over and over and over. If she freaked out we would just go inside or play in our fenced in yard. After a very short time period she stopped going in the street at all, and as she got older she was able to understand that cars might not see her and run over her.

Since we rarely ever said no or used such a stern voice with her, she knows that it's something serious and she should take notice when we talk like that. I think saying yes every time you can works so much better than saying no and punishing to get the kid to do what's easiest for you. Some kids laugh or repeat "no" all the time because they hear it so often, but when no is only used for serious situations like hot ovens or running in the road, the kid is much more likely to pay attention right away!

[ann_of_loxley]

I am not good at these deep discussions (because thats what they really are! hehe) - but I wanted to add to what mamazee has already said (thats how it runs pretty much in our house - we choose to live in a way that is labled as 'consensual' - like alegna, my DS has never been in a time-out and we do not use punishments at all). I am of course far from the perfect parent and struggle with how my own child hood has made me the person who I am today (I grew up in many abusive, in more ways that one, foster homes) - I found Naomi Aldorts book 'Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves' to be the most helpful for me along my path as a mother.

But what I wanted to add is the important of everything...right from the begining. That connection from the start (through a natural childbirth, breastfeeding, co sleeping, etc) is very very important in the long run - especially when it comes to 'discipline' I feel. They are things not to be seen as small and things not to only be seen as a parenting 'choice'. I like how Dr.Sears put its in his ('10 Ways Attachment Parenting Makes Discipline Easier'). It makes sense to me. And yeah, sometimes things go tits up - for whatever reason you couldn't have a beautiful natural childbirth and/or you couldn't breatsfeed, but there are still ways to establish similar connections. I think its just important to see how these things can help with the connection - if that makes any sense.

There was once a huge discussion here on 'Consensual Living' - and I like how one mother put it - how 'consensual iving' was 'plan B' because the connection came first. If my DS 'misbehaves' - that actually tells me somethings faulty with our connection (its never been anything else so far) - once that connection is fixed, he doesn't 'misbehave'. Finding the conesnaul path inbetween our re-connecting and the undesired behaviour, is plan B. Its certainly hard to explain though and it really takes living it to understand it! I am very glad this is our path though as it has turned out to be a really 'easy' and harmonious one! hehe

[Ldavis24]

ann of loxley...thanks for the comment, I find the whole concept of consensual living extremely fascinating...I don't know if any other newer mamas feel this way but I spent so much time preparing for the birth of DD that I hadn't given a ton of thought to what happens after...

I knew I was going to EFB and I have been able to so far which I am proud, however I hadn't planned on co-sleeping but we naturally fell into and it is what DD wanted so it happened and I so glad it did. I hadn't really put thought into AP but once again I took DD's cue and we naturally fell into that pattern. I always thought discipline was discipline until I started reading the gentle discipline threads on here and learning that there is another way and it just feels more in line with how we do things anyway!

Everything I have heard and read about co-sleeping, EFB etc. seems like it leads to a more relaxed LO for the most part and I really don't want to spend my days in the future battling my DD when she is older...now I just have to get DH entirely on board or at least get him to read this thread so he has a better idea of what I have in mind!