New puppy (long)

[lilsparrow]

Hello...
We have a new pup. My husband brought her home last Saturday evening. My husband's friend at work's wife boss's friend lived next door to a guy who was selling some Italian Mastiffs. For real. We used to have an English Mastiff who we loved and even though it's been over three years, we miss her dearly. We got another English Mastiff from reputable breeder, but he ended up dying of eye cancer at about 1 yr and a half!

We really weren't looking for a pup but I think when my husband heard "mastiff" he thought he could surprise us with a pup. I really appreciate it, but he's not really all that knowledgable about these things and the more I questioned him about the environment, the more "backyard breeder" it sounded. The dogs were kept outside, not in the home. She was pretty dirty, needed a bath. Her belly was a little swollen, worms I suppose. There were two litters aand a third on the way. (Apparently he was getting rid of them "cheap" cause he was getting in trouble for having too many animals.) She is quite shy. She spent most of her first night and a good part of the next day hiding under our end table. She still lays more than anything. But she's starting to poke around a little more. I wish she would walk, I've been having to carry her outside to pee. Once she's out there she romps and plays.

She was the pick of the litter, the biggest one (40 lbs, 12 wks) and I'm hoping the most robust. She's a pretty little thing (now that she's cleaned up), though quite shy. Being kept outside, I assume she had little to no socialization except with her littermates.

So, I'm thinking with a nutritious diet, some obedience classes and LOTS of socialization that perhaps we can recover some lost ground with her and help her out? I guess what I'm saying is, though not someone I would have done business with, she's here now, and I am wondering if it is feasible to expect a healthy good-natured dog who came from the not so best circumstances in the beginning?

Just a note ... She seems to be sweet. Shy, a little submissive and QUITE STUBBORN. If she doesn't want to go, she does not go.

She is responding positively to being housebroken and training too (though she has a short attention span) She just *lays down* when she is done and no amount of coaxing will cause her to move willingly. lol

Any advice?

[angie7]

She definately sounds like she is from a byb and has never been socialized Start now. Take her for walk around the blocks, local parks, pet stores that allow dogs, etc. The earlier you start, the better and with a dog that is going to get that big, you need early socialization.

[Oubliette8]

Is she a Cane Corso, or a Neapolitan? Mostly out of curiosity, although I've heard that temperament and training can be issues with Cane Corsos, so you'll want to be sure to have firm and consistent training from the start, and possibly some expert help with it. I love them, but from a questionable breeder, its all the more important that you work on it early, since it doesn't sound like temperament was a consideration for this breeder. Unfortunately, being shy could actually cause issues in the future. Given what you describe, I'd probably get a trainer and start working with them right away, simply because the bigger she gets, the more potential problems you may have. Better to start early than to wait until you see something serious.

I would also advise that she sees a vet ASAP. Lethargy is not normal for most puppies,and given where she came from, she could be quite sick. Having worms would not be good either, they'll steal essential nutrients that the pup needs for growth, and can cause other issues. She needs to be vet checked, because it sounds like something may be wrong.

I would do some research into nutrition for her. Having had mastiffs before you may know this already, but giant breed puppies are prone to joint and growth problems. The food you feed them can make it worse, or better. Grain free for instance is likely not an option. Grocery brands are pretty much out too. I've heard the best results for large breed pups on Eagle Pack Holistics Giant Breed Puppy, if you need a recommendation.

As for your final question- can dog from such a back ground be healthy and happy? YES. Of course they can. Many, many dogs come from less than optimal circumstances and have healthy, happy, normal lives. Sometimes you have to be proactive to get them there, but its more than possible. My own dogs have all been purebred rescues, from BYBs or worse I'm sure (I got them through legit rescues, I know ones breeder was less than stellar, the other simply looked poorly bred, and of course, my mutts I'm sure did not come from educated, responsible breeders) My Mother has a houseful of older dogs rescued from puppy mills. They are all healthy and happy, even though they come from breeds with known health issues. With my own dogs, I take precautions- her breed is known for heart issues, so I give a certain supplement for it and am diligent about having the vet check her heart yearly to catch issues early. If I knew her bloodlines history etc, I might not do those things, but because I don't know, I do what I can.

With a pup like your, I would almost certainly look into joint supplements starting very early in life (joint supplements tend to work better if given to promote healthy joints throughout life, instead of waiting until their is joint damage) If not now, then probably by 1 or 2 years old.

To summarize- get a trainer, particularly as the socialization window is rapidly closing, take her to the vet ASAP, do some research on diet, and try to anticipate potential problems and give preventative care. Most of alll, of course, LOVE her. Congrats on the new addition!

[lilyka]

I would definitely start by taking her to the vet. My dog was a little lathargic, I thought she was just shaken up about everything that had happened that week (she had been weaned, seperated from half her litter, spade, taken from her home, put in one kennel, put in another kennel and then been brought to our house without any of her litter mates. caziness for the poor girl). turns out she was very very sick. the vet said kennel cough but within 24 hours she had spiked a high fever and within another 24 hours was coughing up blood. it took four weeks before she was any kind of healthy again and she has never been quite right (which makes her rediculously amusing. She is quite healthy now but has a weird eating thing, food issues, and runs funny...and she is clearly the runt of the litter being half the size of the other 11 puppies...yeah 11. big litter.) SO I am not telling you all this to scare you but definitely get her to a vet right away. besides all puppies need to be dewormed. better to get that started right away. it doesn't sound like the breeder was on top of it.

[Girl In The Fire]

I have a 6 month old Neo x CC mix. The first 3-4 days home he was very unsure of himself. He was always people oriented but those first few days he was terrified of strange dogs and nervous in new situations. After a week or so he really came out of his shell and settled in. We socialized him daily since he came home. We tried to take him somewhere new almost everyday. We frequented public places where he would meet people of all ages, gender, etc. We let him meet as many dogs as possible and tried to get as many people to come over so he could get used to visitors. We made sure not to coddle him or push him past his comfort zone.We made worrisome situations very positive for him with lots and lots of praise and high value treats like cheese or hot dogs. Now at 6 months old he is confident and outgoing, at home, and in public places. He also has excellent people and dog manners/social skills. Your pup is not a lost cause, you just need to do a lot of work in a short amount of time.


As far as activity level, my pup just recently started doing more than sleeping all day. I was concerned about his lethargy but the vet said he was healthy and it was fairly normal for giant breed puppies. I have talked other Neo people and they said their puppies were mellow as well. A vet check is in order but it could be totally normal.


Training - Try to find a puppy class with a good positive trainer.

In the mean time to get her started... I this person http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...9632A4A4BD3DDC A ton of great step by step videos to teach your dog essential commands and fun tricks that come in handy

[lilsparrow]

Thank you all. I appreciate every single reply, and especially that RAVEN can be a healthy happy dog with the right nutrition, training and environment.

She has come out of her shell quite a bit. Socialization with children is no problem for her, since I have 4 of my own, and we live on a street with a lot of kids. She is sweet and after the first night doesn't seem to be nervous. We live in a suburban area and we have been taking her out in the neighborhood a few times a day. She has been playing with our neighbors dog with no problems so far, and our other neighbor is getting a puppy this week, so maybe they'll be friends!

I plan on signig her up this week for puppy classes and taking her to the vet ASAP. I hadn't thought of joint supplements, but they would certainly be appropos for her. Is it too young to start her on them now?

I fed my other dogs Chicken Soup, but when I got her, my local feed store was closed and I had to go to Pet Smart. They don't carry Chicken Soup, so I got her Nutro ULTRA Large breed puppy food. I don't think she likes it very much though. Maybe not as tasty as Puppy Chow?

I think she is more mellow than lethargic. And this morning finally moved from her spot in front of the couch and is walking the perimeter of the room. She's playing and starting to go for things she can't have. She has been responding very positively so far to verbal correction and praise.

Oh and she's walking to the door to go out now, praise God. I had horrific visions of carrying a 100 plus lb dog out to pee.

Whoopee, even as I am typing this, she just sniffed her way into the kitchen, so she must be feeling safer and more comfortable with her surroundings.

And thank you very much, Girl in the Fire, for that link. I'll be watching it today and I know it will be very helpful.

She doesn't look like she a neo, and according to my husband who saw the parents, they seemed like Canes.

I'll try to post a pic of her later. Thank you all sooooooo much

[lilsparrow]

I mentioned that she wasn't too keen on her food. I didn't know if it was a palate issue or nerves. This morning I put in a couple tbs of vanilla yogurt, and she has been eating it with more umph. I hope yogurt is okay for her, I couldn't think of anything else to put on there...

Any suggestions for the food? Is yogurt alright? I don't want to make it seem like she's not eating, cause she is... But nowhere near the 4 cups a day they say a puppy her size should be eating. It's more like 2. She's peeing and pooping, and her stools are nice and solid and she doesn't seem to have any trouble getting them out. No worms are visible in the poop, but I treated her with a dewormer (which takes care of two types, I guess) and will have her checked by the vet again.

I've been all over her. In her ears, her mouth and she seems amiable and lets me do what needs to be done. I think she's going to be a great dog. I am so glad because we love her so much, and we really want to do right by her.

[Nicole915]

Originally Posted by lilsparrow

I plan on signig her up this week for puppy classes and taking her to the vet ASAP. I hadn't thought of joint supplements, but they would certainly be appropos for her. Is it too young to start her on them now?

Just a couple super quick points, then I should really get my tush back to work!!

Plain yogurt is fine, just try to avoid the ones with lots of added sugar. The foods you use are also good quality, cheers to you!

Its not too young to start her, your vet will help you get the right dose for her. I usually start my patients around 6 months, but see no reason not to begin sooner, unless there is a history of allergies. It is usually most cost effective to buy the human joint supplements (someplace like Cosco) and tailor the dose for the dog. There a lots of supplements available vet side, but they're not cheap, and you'll be working with a pretty big creature.

Also, make sure the neighbor dog is well vaccinated, as your pup does not yet have immunity to communicable diseases.

Have fun with socialization! Remember the ones most of us forget... people in wheelchairs, hats, sunglasses, moving bikes, people in uniforms, garden hoses, the vet's scale and fireworks. One of my profs in vet school was a paraplegic, he used to joke that he had to work in academia because most dogs out there were too freaked out by his chair to get a proper auscultation of the heart/lungs. =)

It sounds like you're on the right track, wishing you all the best. Looking forward to seeing a photo!

[angie7]

Get her off the puppy food ASAP. Giant breeds are not large breeds and large breed puppy food has too much protein. I have Great Danes and know they require no higher then 22% protein and 12% fat. Anything higher then that can cause severe bone/joint damage. I have only fed my Danes raw (pups and adults) but I would look into a very high quality food such as Innova, Wellness, etc but make sure to check the protein/fat ratios.

[Epiphany]

The Nutro Ultra has WAY too much protein for a large breed. Even their large breed formula is much too high. Look for a food that has around 22% protein for your pup. I feed Innova Large breed. High amounts of protein cause rapid growth. Rapid growth is bad for proper joint and skeletal growth.

I also wanted to add not to worry that she is eating less than the bag says. My large breed pup also eats much less than "recommended". Feed her what she is hungry for and don't worry too much that it seems low. As long as she is growing well and isn't too thin, or worse too heavy, then she'll be fine. keeping food amounts low is an excellent thing for giant breed dogs! Being overweight is harder on them than on smaller dogs.

[greenmagick]

Actually, there have been new studies that show its not the high protein per say, but the extra calories, different minerals etc. My 2 year old is climbing all over me right now so I will try to look up the actual info later.

But, even if you are looking at just protein, it can get tricky when comparing.
Basically, a food like Orijen or Taste of the Wild has a high protein level....but as it is grain free you feed less of it, so if you take the actual protein amount per cup, these often come out lower than a lower protein food.

[lilsparrow]

Hmmm ... well I only bought a small bag because I wasn't sure if it would work out. So, next bag I need to check the protein content aiming for 22%, while keeping in mind serving size and actual consumption. phew...lol
Angie, I think its great you feed your dogs RAW. I bet they are so healthy and beautiful. It is not practical for us right now, though I would love to be able to make some puppy food to mix with dry food. I have seen some recipes of pasta/meat combos. What do you all think of those?

And thanks Nicole for reminding me of the ones usually forgotten. I had forgotten lol And also for the budget friendly joint supplement tips.

Thank you for all your advice and help, my son has promised to take a pic of the pup and show me how to post it. lol

[Ola_]

I agree not to feed puppy food (even large breed puppy food). Go with an adult food that says it's for "all life stages". Back when we fed kibble I liked Canidae. If you're a Costco member I believe the Kirkland food is pretty decent for the price. Not a fan of Nutro foods, sorry, too many dogs have issues with them it seems (including mine, it made them vomit).

I think that socialization is your top priority with a large breed like that, especially given her background. Take her everywhere you can, expose her to everything and ASAP while the socialization window is open, as a PP said. There was a neat list I saw online somewhere, it included a bunch of different surfaces they should walk on, different noises, sizes and shapes of people to expose them to, etc.

[Girl In The Fire]

Oh don't forget to teach her how to lay down quietly for nail trimming and to behave while getting a bath.

Those two things are some of my top priorities because trying to cut nails or bathing a 120+lb unwilling and unhappy dog sounds very unpleasant. On that youtube link, one of the videos is about how to get your dog to lay quietly for nail trimming.

Blue loves to swim but is not a fan of bath time so I smear peanut butter and Natural Balance roll all over the shower wall. It takes him a long time to lick it off and keeps him busy. He often goes in there on his own just to make sure peanut butter and sausage has not magically appeared on the wall lol

[Oubliette8]

I've actually read that newer research shows that its not protein or fat levels, but rather the calcium/phosphorus ratio of the food. There are a few brands I would feed LB Puppy food from, that I feel have actually made an effort to put together a food that prevents growth issues. Eagle Pack is one, Wellness LB is another. I'm also not a big fan of Nutro. I agree with the others, if you can't find a high quality LB pup food, you're better of going straight to adult food for your pup. If you have one, in my area at least, Petco has more natural foods than Petsmart. You might also call local feed stores and see if they carry anything.

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by greenmagick

Actually, there have been new studies that show its not the high protein per say, but the extra calories, different minerals etc. My 2 year old is climbing all over me right now so I will try to look up the actual info later.

.

Originally Posted by Oubliette8

I've actually read that newer research shows that its not protein or fat levels, but rather the calcium/phosphorus ratio of the food. .

Thats exactly what I was trying to think of....thanks

[lilyka]

I mentioned that she wasn't too keen on her food. I didn't know if it was a palate issue or nerves. This morning I put in a couple tbs of vanilla yogurt, and she has been eating it with more umph. I hope yogurt is okay for her, I couldn't think of anything else to put on there...

Any suggestions for the food? Is yogurt alright?

My dog has never eaten like other dogs. I think the recommendations on the bag are more of a max amount. but when Lu was a puppy I always put yogurt on her food. She loved it. and it gave her probiotics which are always good.

[lilsparrow]

Originally Posted by Ola_

I think that socialization is your top priority with a large breed like that, especially given her background. Take her everywhere you can, expose her to everything and ASAP while the socialization window is open, as a PP said. There was a neat list I saw online somewhere, it included a bunch of different surfaces they should walk on, different noises, sizes and shapes of people to expose them to, etc.

Thank you, these are good suggestions. I'm going to have to try that list. How long is the window open?

[lilsparrow]

Originally Posted by Girl In The Fire

He often goes in there on his own just to make sure peanut butter and sausage has not magically appeared on the wall lol