Positive Discipline vs Laissez-Faire Parenting

[mikanmom]

I've been having major problems handling my 3 year olds behavior.

I just finished reading positive discipline for the preschooler and have read other PD books in the past and tried to use PD methods with him although I admit alot of the time and especilally lately it has failed and I have seemed to have raised a spoiled brat incapable who loses control when he is angry or sad.


For example he gets into crying fits when he wakes up from naps that last an hour...talking to/with him or trying to comfort him does not work

He's been super whiny,
gives up easily on tasks I know he can do

when I attempt any type of discipline (for example having him leave the room if he hurt his sister)he gets angry and either throws things at me or hits me.

He's done some pretty bad damage by throwing his hard wooden or plastic toys at the wall, doors or sliding glass windows.

I do keep telling him that it's ok yo be mad but not ok to-hurt people
throw hard things

I tried talkingto him about what he can do when he's mad instead; stomping his feet yelling "I'm mad!" throwing soft toys etc. this seems to have no effect and the next time I have him leave the room or take something away that he's not using properly, he explodes and starts throwing crap around.

I use alot of positive words when he is behaving appropriately

I also have a really hard time getting him to help out by putting away his toys when he's done or cleaning his room.

I started reading emotion coaching, took the parenting quiz and scored as a laissez-faire parent

I try to have consequences for behavior but he just gets angry and damages things.....I took away all the hard toys I could find the other day as a consequence although it's impossible to remove everything hard in our house!



At times I get so frustrated I end up yelling in his face or handling him roughly (dragging him out of the room).....today I spanked his butt when he was banging the watering can against the glass window

HELP!!! What can I do?! How can I be less of a LF parent yet yet not resort to spanking or yelling?? I've been getting so exhuasted and burned out by his beahvior....

[mikanmom]

Ok...I read some of the posts talking about times outs and it seems others have had the same problems with time outs.....but i need to have him leave the room at times for the safety of my 1 year old,

for example when i'm trying to cook dinner.....I don't really feel like wearing her when I cook anymore but do if i'm totally desperate and then stick ds in front of a DVD
.....but i wish i didn't have to do that.

[woodchick]

Three is such a tricky age! There have been a ton of posts lately regarding 3 year olds behavior. I've noticed them because we have a 3yo ourselves!

It seems from your post that his destructive behavior stems from being excluded. What if, the next time you would normally have him leave the room, you simply pick up your DD and comfort her without DS leaving. You would be there to protect DD, but would not be giving him attention. But, yet, you would still be in the room with him. If nothing else, not requiring him to leave would keep the frustration from elevating since you wouldn't need to drag him out.

Or maybe, you and DD could leave the room. That would serve the same purpose. I realize you can't let him chase you around the house, leaving room after room, but in the heat of the moment it would give you all a chance to cool off.

Some of the things you posted seem typical of 3yos- not doing things they clearly can, not picking up, whining. Not that that excuses the behavior, it is what it is. With DD we say, "Time to get dressed! Put on your panties and dress. If you need help let me know." (or whatever the task may be) Sometimes she will do it herself and sometimes I end up helping. I figure she is testing out whether or not I'll still be there to help.

I try to make attitude adjustments myself as well. With a baby in the house sometimes it seems like DD1 should be acting older than she is. But still, she is only 3. I have to work to avoid setting up situations in which I know she can't handle herself. If we don't get to the point of needing to be disciplined then we don't get to the point of frustration.

I hope that helped. Know that you're not alone and will get through this!

[lostinspain]

hang in there

Three year olds have their own thing going on--and it often involves throwing things and needing lots of cuddle time. I've tried to be gentle with my daughter, and use positive parenting ideas, and we still had a lot of challenges when she was three. My brother-in-law and his wife are strict disciplinarians (time out, forced apologies, etc.) and their daughter does exactly the same things.
The only thing that I've found to get through these challenges, because they keep coming in different forms, is to really focus on the good. Only say good things about your children to others, and try to repeat in your mind the good feeling of cuddling, or when they show up at the door dressed and ready and proud, or any of the other wonderful gifts that come with parenting a three-year-old.

[Noelle C.]

If there are no consequences to actions, why should he do anything other than what he wants instead of put away toys?

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by mikanmom

I've been having major problems handling my 3 year olds behavior.

I just finished reading positive discipline for the preschooler and have read other PD books in the past and tried to use PD methods with him although I admit alot of the time and especilally lately it has failed and I have seemed to have raised a spoiled brat incapable who loses control when he is angry or sad.
...

At times I get so frustrated I end up yelling in his face or handling him roughly (dragging him out of the room).....today I spanked his butt when he was banging the watering can against the glass window

HELP!!! What can I do?! How can I be less of a LF parent yet yet not resort to spanking or yelling?? I've been getting so exhuasted and burned out by his beahvior....

My gut response here is - he's only three!!! You expect him to have control of his emotions and responses at three, when you are yelling and spanking when you get upset? Breathe deep here mum, and take a step back.

For tidying up, what I find helps is limiting toys (storing some in the closet) and having a set routine a few times a day to tidy up. Before lunch, before dinner, and before bed might be one way. I don't personally believe it's all that age-appropriate for 3 year olds to tidy up on their own... I do believe you can help them form the habit by inviting them to help you tidy up at extremely regular intervals. "Can you get all the cars in this basket? Go!"

For waking up upset from naps, this is really not a discipline issue. It sounds like he needs a cuddle and hugs.

For whining, I would just not respond when he uses that tone of voice.

For the hitting and hurling toys - yes that's where you definitely need a consistent and swift response. I agree that swooping down and showering your attention on the victim is a good start. A time in ("you hit, you sit") might be a good one. And yes in my house if you throw a hard toy, it gets put up on top of the piano for at least the rest of the day... but a soft toy is offered along with a hallway for throwing.

The other secret weapon: Some support and help for you. Can you get a bit of time off? And also, can you have your partner or someone else watch the baby so you can have some one-on-one time with your eldest?

Hang in there - it will be okay.

[chfriend]

Sounds like it might be some regression. Is your one year old newly mobile?

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by Noelle C.

If there are no consequences to actions, why should he do anything other than what he wants instead of put away toys?

People do things for many reasons other than to avoid "consequences." Your post makes it sound like the only reason humans ever behave appropriately is because they are trying to avoid bad things happening to them!

I sure hope the humans really aren't that way. If they are, we're going to need a whole lot more police officers, and a whole lot of police officers for the police officers.

DD does most things I ask because she likes feeling connected to me, and she likes the feeling of harmony. I do most things because I love DD, and I love DH, and I love harmony, too. I cook dinner nearly every night because I want my family to be healthy, and not because my DH will give me a consequence if I don't (heh I'd like to see him try...).

[JL83]

I found it helpful to pick 1 thing at a time to start with. Let him know each time he does it (at first) what will happen if he does it again. Expect that he will test that. Then follow through. I've found that it's useful to try to apply consequences in the following order: natural, logical, artificial. As time progresses, give less chances for him to stop the behavior on his own (after all the desired end product is to eliminate it as much as possible).

Throwing things: This is a hard one. We took 2 approaches. The first didn't work. We tried simply putting everything she threw into the "tomorrow box" but it seemed like that just inspired her to see how much stuff she could throw. Now we remind her that if she wants to throw things she needs to throw the stuffies in her room (the only toys in her room). If she continues throwing things she is promptly helped to her room. We use our words "I see you still want to throw things, let me help you go to an appropriate place to throw things" and she often beats us up the stairs to her room.

We make it very clear that it's OK to be upset, but there are appropriate ways to express that when we are around other people, and there are ways of expressing our emotions that are appropriate for doing in private. DD has a choice of using appropriate methods and staying in the house's common space, or going to her room and doing what she likes.

Cleaning up: I'm a hard ass about this. As a family we all pitch in. If she's taken toys out, I"ll help but not do all of it. So she has to sit on the stairs or go to her room until she's willing to help clean up. She only has stuffies in her room so it's not very exciting. We also clean up after we eat most of the time. That seems to help her mood for cleaning.

[Adasmommy]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

Your post makes it sound like the only reason humans ever behave appropriately is because they are trying to avoid bad things happening to them!

I sure hope the humans really aren't that way. If they are, we're going to need a whole lot more police officers, and a whole lot of police officers for the police officers.

DD does most things I ask because she likes feeling connected to me, and she likes the feeling of harmony. I do most things because I love DD, and I love DH, and I love harmony, too. I cook dinner nearly every night because I want my family to be healthy, and not because my DH will give me a consequence if I don't (heh I'd like to see him try...).

Those are all consequences. I recycle because I like the consequence of a clean and healthy planet. I'd argue that maybe consequences are what motivate people!

That said, I try to avoid punishments, which are a whole 'nother matter!

[Adasmommy]

OP, I have a friend who has one child like the one you're describing and it's rough!

I'd encourage you to remember that it isn't your positive discipline that's to blame. I'm guessing that spanking/hitting haven't produced miraculous results either!

I'm not sure how to turn it around, but I feel confident that the more you can bond with and express love to your son, the happier you will both be. The happier you are, the better things will go in the home!

I think in the case of my friend's kid, she feels criticism very strongly and it makes her act out worse. Maybe making less of the bad behavior would help it go away. As in, you take away the object being used to damage the wall, with a light comment: "That's not for banging with, sweetie." Or "I can't let you hit me," and move yourself or him, but try not imply he's bad.

I know how maddening it is. But when you can keep from being mad, do!

[KellyGlenn]

I think it's an important message that you're telling him: "It's okay to be angry, but not okay to hurt people."
This message can be "taught" through some modeling by you. So it's awesome that you have given him some ideas of what TO DO with his anger such as stomping, throwing soft things, etc.
One tool that might be really effective is if you model this for him. When you get angry, do some of the things that you're wanting him to do.

Another way to reinforce this idea is to create a "calm down area" in the house or a "calm down box" that he can use. Put items in the area (or box) that might help him calm down: a child safe music player with soft or classical music, stuffed animals, a hammering type toy, maybe some kind of stomping pad, etc.

The absolute best way to teach him to use this area is for you to model using it yourself. And I mean when you are really mad, not just pretending. (He's old enough to recognize the difference.) So put a few things in the area that you might also like to use to calm down.

He's more likely to learn this if he sees what it looks like and doesn't just hear it. He's still quite young and can't always take verbal ideas and turn them into concrete ways to calm down.

[KellyGlenn]

About the cleaning up issues, one tool that works well for many kids his age is to give/offer him limited choices.

Do you want to clean up the blocks now or the trucks now?

Do you want to hop like a bunny or gallop like a horse to clean up your toys?

What song on your CD would you like to play/sing to while you clean up?

[_betsy_]

Sounds like my spirited 3 yo DD1. I have found that whenever I interact with her with power or anger of any sort, it makes her defensive and she fights whatever it is I want her to do/stop doing.

Like, for example, if she throws a block, I immediately say something like "Blocks are NOT for throwing. You could hurt someone. Blocks are for building towers! Let's see how tall of a tower you can build!" Or I say the same beginning and offer to build a tower with her.

If she throws again, I clean up the blocks and take them away. If I can sense she's throwing them because she's done playing with them the right way, then I ask her to help me clean them up, and I talk her through how to say she's done with it and how to ask for help coming up with something else to do. I think sometimes she forgets about fun stuff she has available but needs help playing with because I restrict access to it, like playdough, crayons, or whatever. Sometimes she needs a little help finding something fun to do that she has free access to, like she just can't remember what she has or just can't see things that are right in front of her.

We have had to do time ins, but we ask her to sit on the loveseat in the room with us, and to let us know when she wants a hug. Separating her from us physically sends her into an emotional tailspin.

[mikanmom]

I thought I'd give an update on how things are going.

DS has seemed to have stopped throwing hard things! I gave him the alternative of throwing something soft and commenting "wow, I'm glad you remembered to throw something soft. " and let him throw clean diapers at me and make funny faces and noises when they hit me. I'm not sure if it's the suggestion that just needed to be repeated over and over or if it was the consistancy of taking things away that he threw...or maybe the combination.
I also stopped the time outs and instead swoop up DD to hug and console her when DS hurts her and turn my back to DS and ignore him until I'm done...

Also....I've been working on getting him to bed EARLIER! he was asleep at 9:30 which isn't ideal but I'll take it for now! he wakes up just after 7am and usually has a nap.
GuildJenn I've tried to offer some snuggles and hugs if he wakes up sad and this seems to help, now he let's me know he wants me to lay down w/ him and he'll often fall back asleep when I do. Though it seems to be less of a problem now that I have him going to bed earlier.

KellyGlen, you know I always direct him to his bean bag to calm down but he never goes for that, I can see how if I model it for him it might work,
and i do need to calm the heck down at times anyway!

I think I over used the limited choices thing too much because now he usually responds "not A and not B!"


As far as limiting the amount of toys accessable: I need a better system

he just keeps trashing the playroom!! and it's driving me beserk!! I have a tiny closet in there and a small closet. I wish I had lockable containers so that he could see what in there and have to put away one container before getting to open another.... hopefully I will figure out a way to do this because the thing that makes me most irritable and impatient is his constant throwing crap all around and leaving it there .

well I guess at least I should be thankful he's not throwing hard things anymore

[rainyday]

I agree with the others that most of what you've posted is completely normal for a three-year-old. My comments are in your post below.

Originally Posted by mikanmom

For example he gets into crying fits when he wakes up from naps that last an hour...talking to/with him or trying to comfort him does not work

This is just an unfortunate stage that some kids go through. For my DS, it meant he wasn't really ready to be awake yet. Sometimes if I reacted fast enough at the first whimper I could soothe him back to sleep. Most often, though, I just had a sippy cup of milk ready to go, and I just sat and held him while he cried after his nap, and when he was awake enough to really see the milk (this sometimes took five or ten minutes!), I'd give it to him, and he'd drink it up. That helped a lot. What helped the most was time. He just needed to grow to the point where he could wake up more easily.

He's been super whiny,
gives up easily on tasks I know he can do
Kids go through phases where they just seem to feel overwhelmed by what's expected of them. If he's giving up easily a task you know he can do, then he can't do it right now. Something else is overwhelming his ability to cope with that right now. As he grows it will return. Just let it go. Pressuring him just makes him feel worse over something he doesn't yet have great control over.

when I attempt any type of discipline (for example having him leave the room if he hurt his sister)he gets angry and either throws things at me or hits me.
How old is his sister? Is she a recent addition to the family? That may be an issue for him. Discipline does not have to mean punishment. What if you told him that it's not okay to hurt people and then went over, picked her up, talked to her about how you're sorry she was hurt and took her out of the room to a safe spot? Then, depending on the situation, either leave her in the safe spot (e.g. crib or gated area where she can safely be on her own for a few minutes) or wait with her until he calms down. Either way, at some point soon, you need to go back, cuddle your DS and tell him that you know he doesn't mean to hurt, he's feeling (insert adjective: frustrated, jealous, left out, etc.), but that we can't hurt people. This will have to be repeated over and over, for months. But gradually, he will learn to recognize his own emotions. After he's learned to recognize them himself, he'll gradually develop the ability to regulate himself. Most 3 yos do not have that ability.

He's done some pretty bad damage by throwing his hard wooden or plastic toys at the wall, doors or sliding glass windows.
I'd calmly pick up any toys that are thrown and take them away for several hours or a day or so. I would also pack away hard toys that can easily cause damage in such a situation.

I do keep telling him that it's ok yo be mad but not ok to-hurt people
throw hard things

I tried talkingto him about what he can do when he's mad instead; stomping his feet yelling "I'm mad!" throwing soft toys etc. this seems to have no effect and the next time I have him leave the room or take something away that he's not using properly, he explodes and starts throwing crap around.
That's great! but it's not an overnight cure. Very few 3 yos have the self control to choose the correct way to be angry. Heck, there are a lot of adults who should still be working on this lesson. Keep working on it (the emotion coaching books are great for this), but just recognize that he's only 3. You have many more years to teach him, and he has many more years to grow and naturally develop more impulse control.

I use alot of positive words when he is behaving appropriately
Great! Keep thanking him and acknowledging when he's helpful or well behaved. Comment on even the tiniest situation where you notice him using his self control. "Wow! Son, I'm really impressed how you started to get frustrated at your sister when she... but instead of getting mad you turned away and grabbed your truck!" Big hug.

I also have a really hard time getting him to help out by putting away his toys when he's done or cleaning his room.
Show me a 3 yo who cleans his own room and I'll show you a 3 yo with no toys. Kidding. Kind of! Most 6 yos still need help with this. At age 3, it took an extremely step by step approach, and I had to do it with DS. I'd comment on each item that he needed to pick up, one by one. Saying more than at once is usually too much. I would also race my DS. "I wonder if you can get all those blocks picked up before I count to 10 or before I can pick up all of the Legos." Again, you're teaching skills. This process is at its beginning and will continue for years! Don't expect it all right now.
I started reading emotion coaching, took the parenting quiz and scored as a laissez-faire parent
Is that the style that has a hard time being consistent? I might be remembering it wrong. If so, try really hard to respond consistently. If it's not ok to do it today, it shouldn't be ok tomorrow or yesterday or in the morning when you're super tired. Obviously there are exceptions, but at this age, it's really hard for kids to know what's expected of them when the standards change. Emotion coaching is great, though. Stick with it!

I try to have consequences for behavior but he just gets angry and damages things.....I took away all the hard toys I could find the other day as a consequence although it's impossible to remove everything hard in our house!
I'd take away the hard toys not as a consequence but just in acknowledgement of the fact that right now he's having a hard time using them appropriately. It's our job as parents to help set up situations where our kids can be successful, and if they can't do it in the current situation, we need to change it so they can. Punishments will likely just increase his anger. For the hard toys, I'd do it while he's asleep, and then when he notices, I'd say, "Oh, I noticed that toy is hard to use correctly right now. Let's do this instead." Be prepared to comfort - even for an hour. Crying is often a child's only way of dealing with huge emotions so they can accept a situation.


At times I get so frustrated I end up yelling in his face or handling him roughly (dragging him out of the room).....today I spanked his butt when he was banging the watering can against the glass window
I know you know that's not a great response. That's why you came to this forum! In the same situation next time, I'd suggest calmly taking the watering can away after one warning to stop banging it and then saying CALMLY, "We can't use our toys like that." Then put it out of reach and out of sight.

HELP!!! What can I do?! How can I be less of a LF parent yet yet not resort to spanking or yelling?? I've been getting so exhuasted and burned out by his beahvior....

I think one thing that can really help is to think over situations where you've yelled or spanked and think about how you could have handled it better. The goal is to handle situations calmly and matter of factly and to teach your son how to behave appropriately.

It might be helpful to try to frame the situation differently in your mind. You could try thinking of parenting as a job where you have to respond calmly and lovingly to what he does. Remember that it really is his job right now to explore and figure out the ways of the world. Keeping that in mind often helped me to respond calmly! I found planning what I would do in situations where my buttons are pushed really helped me respond in the way I want.

I know this was a super, super long post, but I hope it may help a little bit. Just remember to be kind to your son and to yourself. It's not easy to change for anyone, and we all respond poorly sometimes. The key is to think about those situations and develop a plan of how to respond, and to keep striving to be the parent we would want for our children.

[mikanmom]

He is the big brother of a newly 1 and walking sis.

It's hard to sort out what's jelousy and what is just overexuberance in playing. He runs around her and jumps right next to her especially while I'm trying to cook dinner and knows I don't want to stop what I'm doing....so I end up yelling from behind the kitchen counter.

I know I should have something for him to do like playdough, water-play etc. but it only lasts so long and then he gets all wound up and runs circles around DD jumps on and off of the couch until my blood pressure goes up and I yell at him or drag him out of the room. The only thing that works is sticking him in front of the computer which I hate doing because when it's time to turn it off he always throws a huge tantrum no matter how long I've let him watch something, and it seems the more I let him watch something the more demanding he is of wanting to.


and somebody mentioned the the DH could help out....but he doesn't, we agreed that I am to get a chnace to go the gym to a yoga class at least once on the weekend but he's been too busy....trying to make more money for this family, blablabla