Have a friend who's a Babywise-r. Help?

[Zuzu822]

**Update #32**

I found out yesterday that a new friend uses Babywise...her two week old is already on a schedule! This is the first time I've ever met someone IRL who uses it, and I'm staggered. Not only because it's putting a face on the "method", but because I really like this lady! She has a delightful 2yo DS and is just fun all around. Though it is kind of ironic because just before she told be about Babywise, she said that being a SAHM should require a degree in child development and early childhood education.

Anyway, I didn't say anything at the time, just nodded and moved on, but we later started a little conversation about it and I'd like a little help responding. I can't quote exactly what she said, but basically it was along the lines that she doesn't agree with everything, but it is philosophy of raising your children to provide their needs before they need it and believing that implementing a feeding/wake time/sleeping schedule based on what the parents believe is in the best interest of their children.

The part I bolded is specifically what I'd like to respond to since I believe in trusting that the baby knows what she/he needs and given time they will develop their own rhythm and the family will blend. I kind of imagine it as breathing or the tides or something. Give and take and the new baby is worked into the family and the family works around the baby.

Well, maybe I should just type that, lol. The one thing that especially distubed me on the Ezzo site was a testimony that said following this method made it seem like there wasn't a baby in the house. I dunno-- I LIKE having and knowing a baby's in the house!

She didn't mention how she feels about the crying aspect, which is probably what freaks me out the most about Babywise. I can live with a schedule implemented gently and over time following the baby's cues and tweaking to blend everyone together, but the idea of an itty-bitty baby potentially crying from hunger and/or because it's "sleeping time" makes me ill.

I rambled a bit trying to write my response explaining how we do AP, ecological breastfeeding and how our beliefs about respecting life play into it, but I'm not sure how much to say. Should I even mention my concerns or just explain what we believe and more or less go along with the "we all do things differently" line?

[Bokonon]

Ugh! I will never understand how people can read that book and not become enraged, but that's beside the point.

Can you forward her this link? www.ezzo.info Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?

[mama k nj]

How much you want to say depends on how close you are and how much you value her friendship. I have a friend who is a baby-wiser. Honestly, I often find it uncomfortable to be around them. It's not just the baby stuff, but her whole philosphy on corporal punishment and parenting in general. I too feel torn because she is a delightful person and really believes she is doing what is the very best for her kids. She is actually probably the most dedicated mom I know. She is just dedicated to different ideas than I am.

Obviously it pretty much goes against everything AP that I do. When things come up, I have just said, "Well I'm not comfortable letting him cry. I believe it's his way of communicating." We have not had a lot of convos about it because I just don't make a point of it. But like I said, some things she does makes me a bit uncomfortable and I've not gone out of my way to spend a lot of time with them because of that. I don't think this is something I'm going to debate out of someone. So I guess I take the agree to disagree status unless someone really wants me to start pulling out the research. Which I'm happy to do if they ask!

[TheGirls]

Ah. I think this explains a post of yours elsewhere.

I'd love ideas for what to say in the moment when people start talkin about this stuff too. I was there and she was talking about how well her babe was sleeping at night, and I commented that it sounded similar to Alex's schedule, thinking that maybe the babe fell into it naturally like Alex did. I was completely dumbstruck by the Babywise thing. I didn't know what to say. I wanted to loudly proclaim that we would never do such a thing and that when I had said Alex had kept the same schedule I meant it was her NATURAL schedule, not one imposed by me! But I was so flabbergasted that I didn't say anything.

I've read the book (I own the book, actually, it was given to me as a gift and I didn't want to give it away for fear that someone else would actually think it was a GOOD idea.) And honestly the worst thing in it for me is the way the method doesn't seem to allow the baby to communicate at all. Or, it doesn't allow the mother to respond to the baby's communications. Or something, I don't know.

I've used the analogy of an elderly person before. As in, when my grandmother (died of Alzheimers a few years ago) was unable to speak or understand much, sometimes she cried out in the night or at other inconvenient times. I would have been livid (as would most people) if her caretaker had ignored her cries just because it wasn't time to respond to her. I don't know of anyone who would think it would be ok to leave her crying out in her room without at least attempting to comfort her. And as an adult, she didn't need nourishment in the night...

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm frustrated by this turn of events also, and by some of the other mamas in our group who do/have done CIO. I really wish I could come up with a more constructive response than stunned silence...

[Zuzu822]

Thanks for the replies, mamas. This whole thing I just torturing me!

Originally Posted by Bokonon

Ugh! I will never understand how people can read that book and not become enraged, but that's beside the point.

Can you forward her this link? www.ezzo.info Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?

I thought about that, or just posting the link to my FB and being really passive-aggressive. She pretty much said that she has no intention of changing, so she would probably not give much stock to the site, especially since Ezzo devotes a section of his site "refuting" the critics. :-(

Originally Posted by mama k nj

How much you want to say depends on how close you are and how much you value her friendship. I have a friend who is a baby-wiser. Honestly, I often find it uncomfortable to be around them. It's not just the baby stuff, but her whole philosphy on corporal punishment and parenting in general. I too feel torn because she is a delightful person and really believes she is doing what is the very best for her kids. She is actually probably the most dedicated mom I know. She is just dedicated to different ideas than I am.

Obviously it pretty much goes against everything AP that I do. When things come up, I have just said, "Well I'm not comfortable letting him cry. I believe it's his way of communicating." We have not had a lot of convos about it because I just don't make a point of it. But like I said, some things she does makes me a bit uncomfortable and I've not gone out of my way to spend a lot of time with them because of that. I don't think this is something I'm going to debate out of someone. So I guess I take the agree to disagree status unless someone really wants me to start pulling out the research. Which I'm happy to do if they ask!

We aren't great friends (and now never will be, I'm sure) but we part of the same mom's group. She's a new member and up until yesterday I thought we could really click. There are other things nudging me to step back and/or leave the group so if it comes to that so be it. There's one other AP mom in the group (MDC mama!) but otherwise varying degrees of mainstream in terms of discipline, CIO, etc.

You're right: I'm sure there's other parenting decisions in the background that I'd really disagree with as well.

Maybe I should approach with the FTT info? She stopped nursing her first, for example, quite early. I think she said it was supply issues, but I can't be positive. Avoiding the emotional issues at all, we know the strict schedule can harm milk supply.

Really, though, I'll probably repeat the mantra of crying as communication, include some of what I wrote about the give-and-take of a new baby, explain some AP, and drop it.

Unrelated, but I agreed to let her borrow a bunch of my idea books young children before all this. Now I really want them back ASAP!

I really, really don't think I can be around this family at all now.

[Zuzu822]

Originally Posted by TheGirls

Ah. I think this explains a post of yours elsewhere.

Yep. I was hoping you might see this thread.

I've read the book (I own the book, actually, it was given to me as a gift and I didn't want to give it away for fear that someone else would actually think it was a GOOD idea.) And honestly the worst thing in it for me is the way the method doesn't seem to allow the baby to communicate at all. Or, it doesn't allow the mother to respond to the baby's communications. Or something, I don't know.

I've used the analogy of an elderly person before. As in, when my grandmother (died of Alzheimers a few years ago) was unable to speak or understand much, sometimes she cried out in the night or at other inconvenient times. I would have been livid (as would most people) if her caretaker had ignored her cries just because it wasn't time to respond to her. I don't know of anyone who would think it would be ok to leave her crying out in her room without at least attempting to comfort her. And as an adult, she didn't need nourishment in the night...

Sorry, I'm rambling. I'm frustrated by this turn of events also, and by some of the other mamas in our group who do/have done CIO. I really wish I could come up with a more constructive response than stunned silence...

Can I borrow it? I'd like to really read it thoroughly. I've only flipped in the stores and visited the website.

The example of your grandmother is exactly the sort of thing I always think of, but never say either.

You'll have to fill me in on some of the other CIO events. I've long suspected, but never heard exactly who/when/how. That sounds odd; I don't really WANT to know, but yet it explains so much. I feel very excluded in the group (related to this and a few other things) and honestly I don't know if the benefits outweigh the negatives anymore...

[bethanymama]

It seems to me that some people honestly don't know how to take care of a baby, if they don't CIO, or do babywise, or whatever it is they do. I've had multiple people, my mom included, say things like, but what do you *do* if you don't let them CIO? She might be open to other ways, if you tell her what works for you...

[Dandelionkid]

My very good friend was a baby-wiser- she has older kids now but she loosely followed a schedule. She always fed them on demand but did allow them to cio as infants, the most being 10 mins or so. It worked really well for her and she recommended the book to me as a new mom with the instructions that some of it was ok and some of the advice was silly. I can't stand Ezzo, and told her so, but the point is that mothers who use baby-wise are obviously on a continuum of crazy-scheduled to more relaxed-scheduled. If this woman in your group is on the relaxed side it might be possible for you guys to be friends still. I would have missed out on a beautiful friend if I had decided not to pursue friendship b/c of it.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by bethanymama

It seems to me that some people honestly don't know how to take care of a baby, if they don't CIO, or do babywise, or whatever it is they do. I've had multiple people, my mom included, say things like, but what do you *do* if you don't let them CIO? She might be open to other ways, if you tell her what works for you...

ITA.

I think it's so discombobulating for parents when they formula feed and do CIO, and then they have a hard time with childcare issues there aren't any "shortcuts" for, like potty training, temper tantrums, etc.

Whoever said parenting would be easy?

[karyncake]

One of my closest friends used this method with her baby who is just a couple of weeks younger than mine. We are still great friends and our children are on par with most of their abilities, if anything my daughter is a tad more boisterous and hers is a very kind and gentle soul. We dont really discuss our routines especially now our children are at an age where they are getting into all sorts of mischief and they both more or less sleep through the night, eat the same food and run at the same pace.
I was raised in a very chaotic household and would have loved to have had more structure and routine in my childhood but unfortunately my parents had bigger issues and fish to fry than to give us more than the basic neccessities and left us to it. I honestly beleive that you need to do what works for you as a family and as long as you love and take care of your child and are happy it shouldnt matter what method you follow. I coslept with my parents some of the time until i was 7, my husband was one of the ones that was left down the bottom of the garden for a good scream, by the time my youngest sister (my mums 6th) came along she was left to cry it out and we all grew up to be decent responsible human beings.
Dont rule out a friendship with someone based on their childcare methods, you might lose out on a great friend.

[confustication]

I also have a friend who uses the Babywise approach, and even offered to lend me her copy of the book a couple months ago. She has twin daughters the same age my daughter is, and a baby who is two months older than my son. In so many ways there are a lot of parallels in our lives, but the way we choose to parent our kids early on doesn't match up. Generally, we just stay away frm that subject and stick to areas of commonality (we both homeschool, we're both 'outsiders' in our small rural town, etc and so on...)

Her kids are really great kids, and unless I saw one of them struggling, I wouldn't bring up her parenting choices in a critical way. FTT has never been anissue for them, and they seem happy and well adjusted. It's not my path, but she seems to manage it in a way that is not harmful, so I don't overthink it.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

I wouldn't leave a friendship over it. Many moms take the schedule ideas out of it and ignore the CIO portion.

but it is philosophy of raising your children to provide their needs before they need it and believing that implementing a feeding/wake time/sleeping schedule based on what the parents believe is in the best interest of their children.

The part I bolded is specifically what I'd like to respond to since I believe in trusting that the baby knows what she/he needs and given time they will develop their own rhythm and the family will blend. I kind of imagine it as breathing or the tides or something. Give and take and the new baby is worked into the family and the family works around the baby.

This part stood out to me. Your friend does believe she is doing what is in the best interest of her children and that is all the more any one can ask for of a parent. You both just have different ideas of what is best for children, and that's ok.

I would personally just direct her over the the MDC boards. Tell her how much you like having other moms to discuss issues that arise. It's not your job to change her mind, nor should you feel responsible for her coming to different conclusions than you.

[Marylizah]

Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.

[Zuzu822]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I wrote a long message to her this morning describing how we parent since she described her routine, and then decided not to send it. It was never my intention to try to tell her she was wrong or change her mind, as much as to try to explain my perspective. I can ignore it as much as possible and offer support when/if she has more problems with milk supply. If corporal punishment or CIO becomes a constant topic of conversation in my moms' group, I'll leave the group.

Thanks again for all your thoughts!

[choli]

Originally Posted by Marylizah

Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.

ITA. How would you feel if a Babywise believer tried to push her philosophy on me, basically telling me that AP is wrong and Babywise is right? We've both done our research and come to different conclusions, let's repect each other's decisions.

[justmandy]

Okay, confession time, I dabbled in babywise with my two oldest. I just didn't know any better. I didn't read the books or take the classes but my very good friends did and I adopted some of the practices. I was your typical formula feeding, CIO, TV watching, mainstream mama. I wasn't ignorant, I read lots of articals adn magazines and really thought I was doing what was best.

Not everything was working and one day when I was having a very hard day, I found MDC. Slowly I started seeing this very different type of parenting, I thought some things were CRAZY...breastfeeding a toddler?? Co-sleeping? Baby wearing? CLOTH DIAPERING??? These things were forign and strange...until I met more AP families. I had my third and by that time I had integrated AP into our lives alot. We EBFed, co-slept, CDed, and wore the baby all the time till he was over 18 months. He BFed till 16 months, I wanted to make it to 3 years but believe in Child led weaning and he was done.

This time, I'm homebirthing and can't wait to bust out my slings and watch someone's eyes poop out when lo toddles up for some boo-boo at the park.

I would discourage you from breaking off the friendship-friendships are built on much more tehn parenting styles/beliefes. You may be the key to change in this woman's life. She may not do a 180 but she may be gentler, she may hold her baby more and realise that raising a child who's thoughts and needs are taken seriously actually produces a much more self reliant adult.

[AllisonR]

justmandy, that's a lovely story.

I was a member of a moms and tots group, and all were mainstream except me. Some of them thought I was absolutely nuts I am sure, and I thought them doing CIO and scheduling was horrid. But I didn't convert anyone, and no one converted me.

However, one momma moved ever so slightly towards AP by coming to me privately for an alternate to CIO. Because she approached me first, she was open. So I gave her my copy of the No Cry Sleep Solution, and she quit CIO. Nothing life shattering here, but small steps. We still see each other occasionally, and she is slowly moving over to the "ap side" (if you can call it that) with her 2nd DC. My point to the OP is, unless she asks and is open, I don't think you offering her information, any information, will change her. Just might tick her off though. Over the long run though, if she sees you and your dc and how you do things, she may slowly, very slowly, adopt some of that.

[TinkerBelle]

Originally Posted by Bokonon

ITA.

I think it's so discombobulating for parents when they formula feed and do CIO, and then they have a hard time with childcare issues there aren't any "shortcuts" for, like potty training, temper tantrums, etc.

Whoever said parenting would be easy?

Excuse me, please. I mean this in the most polite manner.

I BF my first two and FF my last one. (long story ~ I could not BF ~not going to explain right now) It was not a shortcut. It was a PITA to clean bottles, warm bottles and deal with the mess. BF was a lot easier.

It is never black and white. There are many shades of gray. You can take some AP practices and mix them with the good parts of other philosophies.

Parenting is never easy, IMHO.

[azgirl]

I wanted to add to what others have said: not everyone who follows Babywise or non-ap methods lets their child CIO for hours or until they throw up, etc. (this really is how I interpret some of those methods) All of the people who recommended Babywise to me are very loving parents. I was grossed out by the book because I took it literally. I really think that the average mainstream mom that you "click" with is more "attached" than not. Also, I have started to realize that a lot of people end up on MDC or attachment parenting because they have high-needs babies. If your baby fusses for a few minutes before falling asleep when you put her in her crib at the scheduled time, you can easily schedule and not think twice about it.
We all know that mom who tells the story about feeling horrible about her baby crying hysterically for an hour while her heart was breaking etc. THAT is when I ALWAYS say something about following our instincts and that there are other ways to do things. I am honestly starting to realize that not all parents who use schedule are ignoring a wailing baby. I would assume that your friend has kids that are amendable to and easy to schedule until you hear otherwise. She sounds like a great friend. They are priceless!

[Smokering]

Ok, some questions for you.

Are her children FTT? Does her newborn seem to be excessively small? Does the baby cry constantly around you because s/he's hungry?

Does her older child show signs of hunger/neglect/abuse?

No?

Then it's none of your business unless she asks you for your advice.

I understand and can sympathize with the difficulty of being friends with people who have very different parenting or life philosophies. But unless her children are beaten, neglected or otherwise abused, that's just what it is: a different philosophy. You are convinced you are right, she is sure she is right. Trying to "convert" her will serve no purpose but to alienate her; then you *really* won't know how her kids are doing.

I love, love, love AP'ing. It works wonderfully for me. But there are other parents out there doing very different things who love and care for their kids. We may not agree, but it would be nice if we could at least have a dialogue with each other.

I agree. I know parents who are much more scheduley than me and their children don't seem to have suffered. One mother is stricter than I'd wish, and some of tje tings she does make me cringe a little - but her children are happy, well-adjusted, adore her etc, so how can I berate her for doing it "wrong"? By any measurable standards her parenting has succeeded. And my SIL just had a baby who's SO easy-going he doesn't mind being scheduled at all - he wakes up biddably to feed when she rouses him, falls asleep afterwards, and doesn't give two hoots about being in a bassinet rather than a sling or the family bed. It works for them. I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.