Have a friend who's a Babywise-r. Help? - Page 2

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by TinkerBelle

Excuse me, please. I mean this in the most polite manner.

I BF my first two and FF my last one. (long story ~ I could not BF ~not going to explain right now) It was not a shortcut. It was a PITA to clean bottles, warm bottles and deal with the mess. BF was a lot easier.

It is never black and white. There are many shades of gray. You can take some AP practices and mix them with the good parts of other philosophies.

Parenting is never easy, IMHO.

I know, and I apologize for the overgeneralization. I was more thinking about mothers who choose while pregnant that they will formula feed because they have heard that breastfeeding is hard, and that formula-fed babies sleep better.

[ollyoxenfree]

You like this mom. It sounds like her 2 y.o. is doing well ("delightful") - so it seems like her parenting choices are working for her family. I agree with all who suggest you respect her choices and give the friendship a chance.

If I had to do everything and believe everything the same as my friends, I would live in a very small, boring world. If her beliefs are too difficult for you, or a clash develops because of it, you can deal with it at that time.

[fairymom]

I only read the original post.

I did things very mainstream w/my oldest dc and eventually it felt very wrong and made my mommy guilt HUGE. so on my own I started to do things that felt natural- I was on lo #4 when i found out there was a term for how I was doing things: AP. Had anyone said I was doing it wrong when I was 1st starting out it'd have made my guilt so much worse but probably not have changed it- I would've wound up thinking I was that much worse of a mom and tired to find things (even harsher) to try.

But no one did- I just got encouragement and good examples of how others were parenting. Eventually the cries got to me and I couldn't do it anymore and had to respond with what felt right instead of what was being told to me as right (thru books/ped/tv).

Mothering has become (IMO) very competative and unsupportive in general (but I view society as a whole to be). If "we" are doing something "different" it's "wrong" and coupled w/insercuity women face and learn growing up- I feel moms are always on the defencessive and we have closed ourselves off to learning from one another and instead are judged and judge each other.

IMO I wouldn't say anything to her- I would just model what is important to me and give suggestions only when asked. She would probably feel really judged by you. What works for you may not work for her and vice-versa. And it sounds as if you like her freindship so why does she have to conform to your values? If in the future you find that her parenting style really goes against what you believe than you may have to revisit the issue and see if its a relationship you want to continue.

GL- and remember we all have our own paths and we are only here to lend a hand and offer support when others want and ask for it.

[transylvania_mom]

so as long as the baby is not FTT (not dying, basically) babywise is just an alternate way of parenting that works for some families and makes the world more diverse and interesting?

OP, I'd mention something. Other than that, I don't see what you can do...
I agree with this:

I would discourage you from breaking off the friendship-friendships are built on much more tehn parenting styles/beliefes. You may be the key to change in this woman's life. She may not do a 180 but she may be gentler, she may hold her baby more and realise that raising a child who's thoughts and needs are taken seriously actually produces a much more self reliant adult.

[itsmyturn]

If she is not pushing her ideas on you than I don't see why it needs to effect your friendship.

[Loralz]

I agree that you should keep the friendship, as long as you feel strong enough in your beliefs that you won't get confused. I say this because I have a friend who is a BW and is now swatting her baby's (15 months old) hand when he misbehaves. She has only done that once around me. I was on the phone when it happened and didn't see it, but heard it. It sickened me.

However, the more we're together, the more she sees how there are other types of discipline and they are just as effective, if not more so. She is seeing that her son's behavior is normal, not a moral offense that needs to be controlled.

I do disagree that BW is just another parenting style, because it isn't. It sets up a lot of barriers between parents and children. It encourages control (to an unhealthy degree!) of a child at all times and makes things into moral issues.

If your friend had supply issues with her first, it is more than likely because she followed the schedule. The scheduled feedings that are listed out lead a lot of women to lose their supply by 4 or 8 months. But if your friend is a confirmed BW, here is a link to a modified schedule that will allow her to nurse longer: http://www.angelfire.com/md2/moodyfamily/routine.html

Here's more info for you from a blog I follow on BW/GKGW. http://www.chewymom.com/category/gfiezzobabywise/

Between the blogs, reading the book myself, having friends who regret having done BW, and the debates on it I follow (such as on http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/...msg=9321.1&x=y ) it is an issue that is not a matter of different parenting philosophy, but one that can lead to heartbreaking results, if followed as given in the book.

While a lot of women do use their common sense when reading and implementing the book, there are much better books out there too.

All right. Stepping off my soapbox now.

[sapphire_chan]

If she's got a pleasant two year old that she treats well, maybe she is able to take and modify the few good things (all found in other books)? How about a response that assumes she's not being abusive?:
"While you know enough about child development to take only the very few good things from that book, you should be cautious about recommending it to other mothers as countless babies have been hurt by the misinformation in that book. Check out www.ezzo.info for some of the stories of what's happened when people who don't know about normal child development try to parent from that book.

Some people like the book because 'it's like there isn't even a baby in the house', can you imagine?? It's really scary what ignorant and bad parents can do with that book."

[sapphire_chan]

She had supply issues with her two year old? Tell her NOW, that scheduling leads to supply issues.

[Noelle C.]

Babywise is nothing short of abuse. Babies have days where they grow faster and need to eat more often and days of slower growth. Babies don't cry for fun. Not feeding because it's not time will only teach a baby that needs won't be met. I can see trying mildly trying to get a baby to sleep at night, but forcing a strict schedule on a baby is insanity.

I hope your friend is only dabbling and has no intention of following that book closely, especially with feeding.

[*EarthMama*]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I agree. I know parents who are much more scheduley than me and their children don't seem to have suffered. One mother is stricter than I'd wish, and some of tje tings she does make me cringe a little - but her children are happy, well-adjusted, adore her etc, so how can I berate her for doing it "wrong"? By any measurable standards her parenting has succeeded. And my SIL just had a baby who's SO easy-going he doesn't mind being scheduled at all - he wakes up biddably to feed when she rouses him, falls asleep afterwards, and doesn't give two hoots about being in a bassinet rather than a sling or the family bed. It works for them. I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.

Very well said.

[*EarthMama*]

Originally Posted by fairymom

I only read the original post.

I did things very mainstream w/my oldest dc and eventually it felt very wrong and made my mommy guilt HUGE. so on my own I started to do things that felt natural- I was on lo #4 when i found out there was a term for how I was doing things: AP. Had anyone said I was doing it wrong when I was 1st starting out it'd have made my guilt so much worse but probably not have changed it- I would've wound up thinking I was that much worse of a mom and tired to find things (even harsher) to try.

But no one did- I just got encouragement and good examples of how others were parenting. Eventually the cries got to me and I couldn't do it anymore and had to respond with what felt right instead of what was being told to me as right (thru books/ped/tv).

Mothering has become (IMO) very competative and unsupportive in general (but I view society as a whole to be). If "we" are doing something "different" it's "wrong" and coupled w/insercuity women face and learn growing up- I feel moms are always on the defencessive and we have closed ourselves off to learning from one another and instead are judged and judge each other.

IMO I wouldn't say anything to her- I would just model what is important to me and give suggestions only when asked. She would probably feel really judged by you. What works for you may not work for her and vice-versa. And it sounds as if you like her freindship so why does she have to conform to your values? If in the future you find that her parenting style really goes against what you believe than you may have to revisit the issue and see if its a relationship you want to continue.

GL- and remember we all have our own paths and we are only here to lend a hand and offer support when others want and ask for it.

Also very wise mama! I the community we have here and the community we can create in the real world, differences included. We truly can learn a lot from each other- especially about ourselves. If nothing else at least those that we differ from offer us a chance to reaffirm what we know in our hearts to be right, for us. Just as there is no one-size-fits-all with children, so it is with parenting. I am VERY AP and some times I struggle with mamas who have opposite approaches, yet I try to value the lessons I learn from them and feel that I grow as a parent and as a person because of it.

I also want to mention that BW does seem to be abusive when carried out strictly and that is both saddening and enraging to me. However, all we can do is raise our families as we see fit. If we could end all war, hunger, suffering, and abuse in the world then surely we would! The fact of the matter is we don't have control over other people and generally people learn best through others examples not through control, that is what started most of these world issues in the first place... just my

[Zuzu822]

How funny to see this thread resurface! I'd forgotten about it and never read mote than the first few replies.

Here's an update: this gal and I have become good friends and I've learned that while she's a scheduler she's not a hardcore CIO-er, doesn't spank, and is a very warm, loving mama. Her newest baby (5 months already) is as sweet as can be and clearly cherished. They haven't done any kind of "training" as her DD mostly fell into the routine they wanted. Her supply doesn't seem to be suffering and the baby is clearly very healthy. Her son and my boys are great playmates and the mom and I have more in common than not.

I think my original post was a knee-jerk reaction to hearing the word "Babywise." While I agree that this book CAN be abusive and should generally be discouraged, my friend seems to have used it mostly positively. Her baby is not crying for hours from hunger or alone in her crib at night.

[Hoopin' Mama]

I have a long-distance friend who told me Baby Wise was her bible. My jaw dropped to the floor.
However, she quite clearly adores her babies and they are the light of the world. She did not bf so maybe the scheduling works better with formula? I don't know.

That said, I still wish that book didn't exist.

[Hannah32]

Originally Posted by Smokering

I think MDCers often demonise women who do it differently, even when the results speak for themselves. Yes, there's a line of neglect/abuse, but it's not drawn neatly between What We Do and What They Do.

As someone expecting her first baby this summer, I completely agree. I really enjoy this forum, but it's undeniable that it has an edge to it. Don't get me wrong. I run like heck from anything that smacks of Christian fundamentalism, like Ezzo seems to, but not everyone is going to be able to go completely without sleep for the first two years. I know that we're not going to be able to.

[Fuamami]

I haven't read all the responses, but my SIL did Babywise, too. For her, it meant that the first six months of her baby's life she set the alarm and woke up every two hours and woke up her baby and fed her. And all through the day she did that too. I lived with them, and it seemed like a total exercise in frustration for my SIL as she tried to get her baby to wake up and eat when she was full and snoozing, but not too hard on the baby.

So I think there are lots of different ways that people "Babywise". Ezzo would probably have been very scornful of my SIL, as she never once made her baby CIO, but she considered herself a hardcore Babywiser.

[JL83]

Someone who follows babywise is not someone I would knowingly spend any time with. There is no way I would want my children around that kind of person, and I would not want be around such a person.

[Asiago]

Originally Posted by Bokonon

Maybe tell her that the AAP has put out a warning against the practices outlined in the book, and are trying to get the book banned?

I just found an article from 1998 that AAP associated the book's practices with failure to thrive, dehydration, poor milk supply, involuntary early weaning and so on.
http://aapnews.aappublications.org/c...stract/14/4/21

[elizawill]

well, when i became a mom, i had no idea what i was doing. i read the most popular mainstream parenting books, and i looked to my mom and sisters for help and advice. i'm sure i've made a million mistakes and poor choices, but fortunately i've somehow managed to evolve into a very gentle and loving mama. maybe you should give your friend the benefit of the doubt. she most likely believes that she is acting on her child's best interest. i would look at this as an opportunity to simply talk to her about it, yk? don't judge. don't preach. just talk and then listen. i have been very appreciative of friends that support me in my parenting journey, and help me see things from a different perspective. my "parenting philosphy" is totally different than when i first began this journey. and if i had to do it all over, i'd choose differently i'm sure, knowing what i do now. wouldn't most of us?

my pastor's wife came to me last year and asked if i would co-lead a bible study. it was "growing kids god's way" by the ezzo's. her intentions were genuinely good, as she wanted to help young moms in our church (she is also a new mom). i didn't judge her, but i simply saw it as an opportunity to talk with her and help her be better informed. it was a wonderful opportunity for me to share a different perspective & we ended up doing "graced based parenting" instead. her little boy is 2 now, and she plans to be a "spank free" parent

[claddaghmom]

Wow. I have a wide range of parenting philosophies in my circle, but babywise is not and never will be one of them.

This has nothing to do with being tolerant or politically correct or "not tearing mamas down" (whatever that means).

Those who are suggesting the above...have you even read the books?

[mammal_mama]

I think that if the majority of women in your mother's group are advocating scheduling and cry-it-out, this may not be such an edifying group to hang around with.

But as far as individual friendships, I wouldn't turn your friend away if you like her. I also agree with the poster who said you should let her know that scheduling can cause supply issues.

We were good friends with another family (they've since moved) where the mom followed Babywise. And what struck me was how hard this mom was working to ensure some semblance of order -- whereas my own children, without any work on my part, gradually got into their own regular schedules as time went on.

Their nursings gradually got further apart, and they gradually started sleeping more solidly. The other mama seemed not to realize that a newborn doesn't stay like a newborn forever. Much of the Babywise stuff (and much mainstream parenting) seems to be based on the idea that babies will stay babies forever, if you don't "make" them learn that "the whole world doesn't revolve around them."

Through practicing Attachment Parenting, I've learned to see human nature in a much more positive way: I now feel that children are born with a natural desire to learn and to have postive relationships with others. Now I feel that babies are born "right" within themselves -- and crying (and, later on, acting out) is the way they communicate when things are out of whack and they need our help to get that sense of rightness back (Sears).

Babytraining philosophies come at it from the opposite perspective -- the idea that babies are born "wrong" and self-centered, that crying (and, later, acting out), is their means of trying to manipulate their parents and get them divided against one another, so that the children can get control of the family.

So, parenting becomes all, or largely, about parents presenting a "united front" against the children, and getting control of them (because babytrainers see it as someone always has to be in control, someone always has to occupy the top of the hierarchy -- so if parents are not controlling then children will naturally step up to fill in that "void").

So, the different parenting philosophies are essentially reflections of radically different world views, especially different views of human nature. Those of us who've exprienced major world-view shifts within ourselves, know that it's not an overnight endeavor. And, for many of us, our shift began when we started getting to know other people who thought very differently than we did. And aren't we glad we had a chance to get to know these other people, even if we thought they were totally bonkers (and irresponsible parents) at first?