Baby bucket car seats toddering on the top of shopping carts - Page 7

[aniT]

Originally Posted by triscuitsmom

At any rate don't take your child to a pediatrician if you don't feel it is in their best interest. My older son has never seen one and won't unless there is reason for it. We too do not vaccinate and prefer a more natural approach. However that being said I think that your whole attitude towards an entire group of people is offensive and no better than any other stereotype whether it be for race or choice of life partner or location of residence.

What attitude is that? The one where I don't believe they are gods to be bowed down to and their every wish and demand adhered to? Is it the one where I take what they say with a grain of salt? Or the one where I don't believe that the AAP is an organization full of volunteer parents sacrificing their time and lives to make the world a better place?

I think you are reading more into what I said that what was there.

And NO WHERE did I say all peds were male. I said in my experience peds are male. I also said that they probably (probably meaning in all likelihood not absolutly) had wives or nanny's. See that could mean that they have either or and in no way is sexist. Because to work outside the home you need SOME TYPE Of caregiver for your children, they can't stay home alone.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by karkli

On topic, if your point is that the AAP's guidelines should not be taken as gospel, then I actually agree with you. But their own parenting situations are irrelevant to the discussion. The AAP does not make parenting recommendations. They make safety recommendations. Parenting is a skill (and talent!) based on a complex combination of emotion, intuition, instinct, and science. Safety, on the other hand, is based on statistics, probability and margin of error. I hope that the AAP does not get these two concepts as confused as lay people are apt to.

OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??

[aniT]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

I
It's totally possible in reality. The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.

Just for the record.

[karkli]

Originally Posted by aniT

OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??

Yes! (At least, I was.)

[aniT]

Originally Posted by karkli

Yes! (At least, I was.)

Well now that we have that straight!

[beru]

Originally Posted by karkli

Parenting is a skill (and talent!) based on a complex combination of emotion, intuition, instinct, and science. Safety, on the other hand, is based on statistics, probability and margin of error. I hope that the AAP does not get these two concepts as confused as lay people are apt to.

I know I am getting off topic but I believe the AAP does get these two concepts mixed up. Since I dislike much of what they say, I make it a practice not to quote them on things I do happen to agree with. They have lost all credibiity with me.

For instance, they are against cosleeping because it is a "safety" issue. But they are absurd. A baby dies or is injured in a crib, they release guidelines for safe crib-sleeping. A baby dies or is injured in a bed and they call for a complete ban on the practice. I actually think it is borderline rascist as they are alienating entire cultures who regularly practice cosleeping. My Korean friend was essentially called a reckless idiot by her pediatrician. Disgusting. I have other experiences regarding sleeping (for a child without a health problem related to sleep), potty-learning (for a child with normal development and physiology) and discipline where they give opinionated, subjective advice. I tried to understand why this is their business and I figured it is because they think they are giving safety advice. No, it WAS parenting advice and I don't want unsolicited advice which is misrepresented as health information. And in my experience, when I do get safety advice they don't know what they are talking about (e.g. car seat safety-the ped told me it is illegal to rear-face a child after 12 months old).

[triscuitsmom]

Originally Posted by aniT

OK are you all missing where I was responding to someone else who claimed that the AAP was an organization made up of volunteer PARENTS not Peds??

OK except you and I read that sentence totally differently... The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.

I read that as they are doctors who also have children which would make them working parents and it does require sacrifice for most people to go to work and be a parent at the same time. I read it as these aren't just some random people who have never interacted with children before. Now it does read that they are all parents, but I presumed that the OP just meant some of them and mistyped it to read all of them, I never got anywhere she meant they were volunteers who had no safety/health background.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by triscuitsmom

OK except you and I read that sentence totally differently... The AAP is comprised of working parents who have kids and who make sacrifices to be on that board.

The suggestions posted by the AAP are not based on the reality of a middle to low income family with municipal children to shop with.

Bring another adult to watch your children?

Bring a wagon or stroller to push WHILE you try to maneuver a cart full of groceries for a large family? :

Leave the children at home with another adult? : Yea.. I wanna do my shopping after dinner at 7 or 8pm when DH is home.

Tell your older children to walk and praise them for behaving? Yea that works.

Shop online? No stores in my area offer this.

Lets not forget not letting the kids ride in the basket, having older children push the cart, or riding on the side.

Furthermore the play areas do not watch children younger than age two so this is not going to help with infants and toddlers anyway.

Like I said.. their recommendations are not based on reality therefor I do not believe they are parents and or primary care givers of their children. (the ones on the AAP, not all peds.)

[EdnaMarie]

Leave the children at home with another adult? : Yea.. I wanna do my shopping after dinner at 7 or 8pm when DH is home.

I don't want to do my shopping while my DH is in training with the Army, but I do it, and I work all my contacts to leave my two-year-old there if I can't go where there's a play area.

Balancing a baby on top of a cart is not a safe option. When it's not, you find a way.

People did grocery shopping before bucket seats and when or if it becomes illegal, they'll still do it. I am not buying the "for some people, they would never be able to shop, and therefore starve to death, if they cannot put a kid on top of a cart" argument.

People do what they have to.

[JL83]

What are these play places? I'm in Canada and I've never seen a grocery store with one. Are they like babysitters?

The only place here with something like that is IKEA, but the only take potty trained kids over a certain height. So it wouldn't be any use for a child small enough to be in a bucket.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

I don't want to do my shopping while my DH is in training with the Army, but I do it, and I work all my contacts to leave my two-year-old there if I can't go where there's a play area.

Balancing a baby on top of a cart is not a safe option. When it's not, you find a way.

People did grocery shopping before bucket seats and when or if it becomes illegal, they'll still do it. I am not buying the "for some people, they would never be able to shop, and therefore starve to death, if they cannot put a kid on top of a cart" argument.

People do what they have to.

Here go with the balancing again. The car seats securely attach to the cart.

There is no way in hell I am leaving my kids with my mother to go grocery shopping, and I in no way believe it is enough of a danger to make my life a living hell by going shopping after DH gets home from work, dinner, and putting the kids to bed after getting up at 6am and putting in a full day.

Yes people do what they have too... and not shopping with children is something they DON'T HAVE to do.

Originally Posted by JL83

What are these play places? I'm in Canada and I've never seen a grocery store with one. Are they like babysitters?

The only place here with something like that is IKEA, but the only take potty trained kids over a certain height. So it wouldn't be any use for a child small enough to be in a bucket.

The ones here only take children over the age to two and no older the Kindergarten. (I don't remember if they stop taking them in K or if K is the oldest they can be.) They also have crappy hours.. they don't open til after 10 am, close at 5, and are sporadically closed unannounced throughout the day. So you can't always guarantee they will be open. I think you only have an hour too. So yea.. no good for infants anyway.

[Anastasiya]

Originally Posted by EdnaMarie

People do what they have to.

You're right.

Problem is, sometimes what people HAVE to do might not be what you'd LIKE them to do.

Like I said earlier, I rarely do this, but when I do I do it carefully and conscientiously. I remember one time when I had to make a run to the store because 1. I was completely out of thyroid meds and had been for two days, 2. I was out of diapers and 3. Baby had a bad rash and needed ointment.

Problem was, DH was working his 24 hour shift, my parents were away for the weekend and my regular sitter was nowhere around. So I took myself and my four children to the store, in the rain, threw them all into the basket with a raincoat over their heads and put the infant carrier in the cart, and limped to the door. I had a sprained ankle. I could BARELY get around.

Wearing the baby at that point wasn't an option because 1. My ankle was too weak to bear the weight for the trip 2. It was raining and I couldn't finagle the sling even if I'd wanted to without getting both of us soaked and 3. He didn't fit in my carrier at that point anyway.

So my ONLY option? Put the carrier in the cart and HOLD ON to the carrier. It's what I HAD to do.

But I'm so glad that you think there's always a better solution and that I failed to keep my child as safe as possible. I guess I should have just waited another day, till DH came home, and gone another night without my meds, wrapped cloths around the baby's bottom and told him to just "deal" with his rash.

I really have no more energy to spend on this thread. If YOU think it's so dangerous, then YOU don't do it. But don't condemn everyone else who does it if they are doing it carefully and safely. I think every mother here knows what works best for her and her child(ren), and every person here knows what warrants doing this and what doesn't.

It's not your call to say they need to do better and try harder....honestly, if you are THAT concerned about safety, then you might really consider never allowing your kids in the car for a trip anywhere....car collisions being the number one killer of kids and all.....

[chickabiddy]

Current, nonexpired carseats do not attach "securely" to carts. The grid on most carts is different than the hooks on a carseat base. They may click, but it is not ncessarily a secure or safe fit. Almost all carseat manufacturers acknowledge this about current models.

I agree that we all assess risk differently and we are willing to accept differing levels of risk vs. convenience. I don't want to argue about that. I didn't put the carseat on the shopping cart but I let my daughter use the restroom alone in some public places. Again, we all make different choices. That's fine. But it's just absurd to argue that there is no risk in putting a carseat on a shopping cart. It is explicitly stated in most carseat manuals (of current seats) that it is not safe and not allowed.

[aniT]

It's now allowed? By whom? There is no law against it, I am sure there never will be a law against it, therefor it is allowed. It's up to the parent to make sure it is safe, not the car seat manufacturer, not some store employee, the parent. I will be damned if someone else is going to tell me what is and what is not allowed with my child when I have determined that it is "safe".

I agree with a pp poster.. this thread has gotten ridiculous. You don't like it, don't do it, but don't condemn someone else for not reaching the same conclusion as you have.

[chickabiddy]

It's a misuse of the product (infant seat). Do what you want with your child, but don't argue that it's "safe".

It is up to the carseat manufacturer to test the product and set guidelines for safe use. Carseats were designed for cars, not carts. And stores can set guidelines for what you are allowed to do in the store.

[TheGirls]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy

Current, nonexpired carseats do not attach "securely" to carts. The grid on most carts is different than the hooks on a carseat base. They may click, but it is not ncessarily a secure or safe fit. Almost all carseat manufacturers acknowledge this about current models.

My graco snugride (<2yrs old) latches quite securely onto many carts. It's impossible to get off without releasing the latch. I've tried. It doesn't work for all carts, but that's why I check.

I agree that we all assess risk differently and we are willing to accept differing levels of risk vs. convenience. I don't want to argue about that. I didn't put the carseat on the shopping cart but I let my daughter use the restroom alone in some public places. Again, we all make different choices. That's fine. But it's just absurd to argue that there is no risk in putting a carseat on a shopping cart. It is explicitly stated in most carseat manuals (of current seats) that it is not safe and not allowed.

Did anyone argue that there is no risk? I don't remember that. I agree, there is some risk. I just think it's inappropriate to say that it is completely unsafe or "balancing a baby 4 feet in the air" or "toddering on carts" or should be banned. That makes it sound like you're balancing the seat on a highwire or maybe a unicycle, rather than fastening it securely to a four-wheeled cart... Especially since I have yet to see a single statistic of how many babies are injured while riding harnessed in their infant seats, clipped onto the shopping carts.

[chickabiddy]

Page 21 of the Snugride manual from 2007 reads in part "Warning!... NEVER place carrier in the top of a shopping cart."

And yes, it seems like there is an argument that the seat is "meant" to be clipped to a cart and therefore it is perfectly safe. That's what I take issue with. It's not. If a person decides that she wants to do it despite the research and warnings, then fine (and I don't mean that snarkily at all). It's an educated decision -- one that I disagree with, but we'll never all agree on anything, and neither of us are likely to change our minds.

But if someone is stating that there's nothing wrong with it and if buckets weren't meant to be clipped to carts they shouldn't be able to be clipped (I can *make* a lot of things do stuff they aren't supposed to!), then I think that's fair game for discussion.

[DevaMajka]

I'm closing this thread, as it is getting off topic and a bit out of hand. Please keep in mind the forum guidelines:

We ask that threads focus on safety information gathering, education, advocacy and sharing of personal experience rather than critiques of individuals or venting about others. Insulting, belittling or condemning others is neither productive nor appropriate. While we understand that it can be difficult to watch others make choices that are not in line with your own, the focus of this forum is on "safety." We ask that discussion focus on facts and information rather than venting about others who make different decisions for their families. Please avoid negative characterizations and generalizations about others to respect the diversity of our online community.

If you have any questions, please PM me.