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Baby bucket car seats toddering on the top of shopping carts - Page 5

post #81 of 138
I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).
post #82 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
And their suggestions are ridiculous and I wont be following them.
I agree the suggestions were ridiculous. Bring along someone else every time? Always find a sitter? Pull a wagon AND push the cart? Push a stroller AND push the cart? Obviously the AAP thinks all parents have four arms and only one or two kids.

It's all about common sense. When I have to place my carrier in the cart, I always hold onto it. ALWAYS. Even if it latched onto the cart (it doesn't), I'd hang on to it. I also always have my child strapped in securely. Not every parent you may see doing this isn't a thoughtless one.

Most of the time when baby comes into the store in his carrier, he's in the basket part anyway - which the AAP also advises against.
post #83 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by LandonsMom View Post
I once saw the bucket fall off the cart and tumble quite a distance when a woman was coming out of Target into the parking lot. I dont know whether the baby was strapped in or just didnt fall out as the seat tumbled (the force keeping it in the seat) but I was pretty traumatized either way. As a new mom, I was in tears and stopped my car as fast as I could to try and offer help. I had already abandonded my bucket seat by that time as ds was a VERY big baby, but it definatly left an impression on my mind. Personally, I wouldnt do it, even if I did use those types of seats (which I dont, only b/c I dont find them remotely convenient).
I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?

I've also seen kids fall out of highchairs, fall out of strollers, fall off swings (very high up in the air) and tumble head first down stairs. That doesn't mean everyone should avoid placing their kids in highchairs, strollers, swings or letting them walk on stairs, it just means that some caution is involved and it is done as safely as possible.

I agree that a heck of a lot of parents don't *think* cautiously. Lots of people have the "It won't happen to me" mentality.

But not everyone thinks like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL83
...it seems like their [AAP's] recommendations are often geared to the lowest common denominator. People who don't seem to be able to think about things and make good choices on their own...
Exactly.
post #84 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post
I'm sure it was traumatic. The question though is WHY wasn't the mother holding onto the seat, esp in a bumpy parking lot?
I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.
post #85 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by LandonsMom View Post
I imagine it just didnt occur to her that she needed to, if she thought it latched onto the cart (or was intended to or whatever). Holding onto the seat while coming from the sidewalk to parking lot (even if graded well) would seem to be common sense.
It would also seem to be common sense to make sure the seat wasn't wobbly in the first place. The one we had fit in there tight.. and clipped on.
post #86 of 138
Thread Starter 
It's still not a good idea to place it on top of a shopping cart, clip or no clip. It just takes one bump and that supposedly tight clip can just snap out. It's simply aren't safe.
post #87 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
If the manual says not to do it, why do they make them so they can do it? And don't tell me it's so they can clip into the base. My oldest daughter is 16 and HER baby car seat clipped into the cart. Long long long before bases came around.
I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.
post #88 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkymamajoy View Post
I always thought it was just a coincidence that they clipped to the cart, not that it was intentional.
Not when they originally started doing it. My car seat did not have a base, but it had the clips and the bottoms was shaped in such a way as to fit in the cart snuggly. It also had stickers by the clips that showed how it should be attached to the cart. Now this was back in 93. I don't even remember the name of the car seat. The one I had in 98 did have a base and I can't remember if it used the same clips or not, however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.
post #89 of 138
Thread Starter 
however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.

It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.
post #90 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.
post #91 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.
The seat manufacturer may have made clips that will attach to a shopping cart, BUT the shopping cart was NOT designed to have a carseat balanced on top of it in that particular position. THe seat manufacturers also have no idea what the cart is made of, the tensile strength of the bar its being attached to, the quality of the welds, etc.

A lot has changed since 1998 in seat manufacture and recommendations for use, and after a number of horrible accidents involving carseats and shopping carts, manufacturerers are no longer including shopping carts as a "serving suggestion," for liabilitiy reasons. WHich makes sense to me.
post #92 of 138
It really irks me when things get pulled due to "safety" reasons when it probably really isn't the product, but the lack of sense in the person using it.
post #93 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Dude where is this "clear logic" you speak off? All the buckets I have owned where specifically designed to clip onto the cart as well as hold the babe in the car. You can not believe it all you want, but they were.
I didn't speak of "clear logic", I spoke of "logic".

Moreover, I can believe that some bucket seats were designed to clip on to the cart, but then, some drugs were designed to be ingested. Doesn't make it safe.

And while some perfectly useful things are pulled prematurely because people just don't know how to use them, many, many more things are re-designed to be much more safe. For example, cars. They used to be less safe than they are now. The car manufacturers insisted that "cars don't cause accidents, drivers cause accidents." Well, we know that (a) it might not be the fault of the person driving the car if she gets into an accident, (b) it certainly isn't the passenger's fault! and (c) fault really has nothing to do with it since we all want the risk of death and injury to be as low as it can possibly be, regardless of liability.

And that's why they don't make carseats to put on carts, and why parents shouldn't put them on carts.

The AAP recommendations are based on risk assessments for a large group of people. They know that if only one child in 10,000 is going to die from something, that 99,999 children could do it without dying.

However, they are going to recommend behavior that keeps every single of the 10,000 children safe.

They are also probably more aware than most of us (because they hear of sad "freak accident" cases daily) of the role that chance plays in all of this.

Does any of us want to be in the ER saying to the doctor, "It felt secure! I've latched it on there a million times! The cart didn't seem wobbly..."

To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually do."

And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was a piece of gravel under the wheel."

And the other nurse: "She's stable. She's got a fighting chance."

I mean, really?


Because we are just soooo confident in our ability to assess security of carseat clips and shopping-cart stability? So that we'll put a baby four feet above ground?
post #94 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
however the logic that these clips aren't safe enough to hold the seat onto the cart, yet is safe enough to hold it on the base in the event of a car accident just baffles me.

It shouldn't. With one, you're using it safely as the way it was meant. The other, it's not being used the way it's supposed to. I'm baffled by the logic that the mere presence of clips means this is a safe way to shop with your baby, when clear logic is that it's not.
You said clear logic right there..

And yes.. .things are pulled and redesigned and put back out into the market, as a less useful product. Take baby walkers for instance,

These are SO dangerous!!! NOT! Parents without enough brain cells to not put their baby in something that has wheels at the top of the stairs are dangerous. But to protect the children of the above mentioned parents they took them off the market, redesigned them so they are bulkier, less maneuverable, and basically NOT a walker any longer becuase babies can't walk in them!!

Webbles wobble but they don't fall down.. .NOT ANY MORE!! They are so freaking big they no longer wobble. Little people are no longer little, I haven't seen a micro machine in YEARS, and polly pockets are twice the size they used to be.

These items were PERFECTLY safe for the INTENDED age group, but because some parents lack common sense they were pulled, redesigned and re-released as something else to protect the children of parents with no sense.

Placing your baby in a car seat on top of a car is not unsafe, IF you have enough sense to make sure it is stable, clipped on there securely, and not placed on the type of cart wobbly. Most grocery carts are big, bulky, and do no wobble and I feel secure that my baby is safe, (was safe when I used them.) You can do what you want with your child, but like I have said before.. we will have to agree to disagree because there is nothing you can say that will sway me to your point.
post #95 of 138
if i have to bring the seat in with us it goes in the basket part, i'm too short to see to steer the cart with the seat in the front part - normally i just wear the baby though
post #96 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
The seat manufacturer may have made clips that will attach to a shopping cart, BUT the shopping cart was NOT designed to have a carseat balanced on top of it in that particular position. THe seat manufacturers also have no idea what the cart is made of, the tensile strength of the bar its being attached to, the quality of the welds, etc.
I want to back this up. I work in a large retailer's store, and we have carts of several different designs because they were bought for the store in different years. I often see baby seats of several styles precariously set over the seat of the cart, some look like they might clip - if the upper part of the seat leaned back another inch or so. Or there is a sort of hook area (not even a clip, just a hook design in the plastic) that sort of settles over it. Not very secure. I've seen some with the outter edge of the hook sitting on top of the back of the seat - it might have settled better, but the parent didn't look, they just put it up there.

And skate-shoes are a huge issue of their own, parents encourage their kids to go full speed just because the floor is concrete and the aisle looks clear. WE SELL RUSTY, GRIMY, NASTY, REBAR! Do you want your kid to come sailing along at full speed, just when someone is turning a corner with some 6foot lengths of rebar in their hands? The ambulance crew will have an interesting time getting a child to the ER with that through their middle.
post #97 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
The AAP recommendations are based on risk assessments for a large group of people. They know that if only one child in 10,000 is going to die from something, that 99,999 children could do it without dying.

However, they are going to recommend behavior that keeps every single of the 10,000 children safe.

They are also probably more aware than most of us (because they hear of sad "freak accident" cases daily) of the role that chance plays in all of this.

Does any of us want to be in the ER saying to the doctor, "It felt secure! I've latched it on there a million times! The cart didn't seem wobbly..."

To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually do."

And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was a piece of gravel under the wheel."

And the other nurse: "She's stable. She's got a fighting chance."

I mean, really?


Because we are just soooo confident in our ability to assess security of carseat clips and shopping-cart stability? So that we'll put a baby four feet above ground?
I'm sorry, EdnaMarie, this whole thing sounds so silly.

I could put any other situation here and the conversation could be the same.

"I thought my Ergo was buckled, but the baby fell out."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, they usually are buckled correctly."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Maybe there was something stuck in the buckle."

"I thought forward facing at one was okay, but I guess his neck just wasn't strong enough."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, it usually is okay to forward face at one."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. He just wasn't strong enough to withstand the crash forces." (The AAP recommended until recently a bare minimum of 1 year and 20 pounds for forward facing.)

"I thought the crib was safe - I didn't know the slat was loose."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, cribs are usually very safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Sometimes thing break and we don't notice." (The AAP recommends babies sleep in their own spaces.)

"I thought circumcision was safe. No one told me about things being botched or meatal stenosis."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, circumcision usually is safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. The doctor just didn't do the job right." (The AAP gives parents the option, and does not recommend against circumcision.)

"I thought vaccines would save her life - not put her in the hospital with a life threatening reaction."
To which the doctor replies, "Yes, vaccines are supposed to be safe."
And the nurse: "It's not your fault. Obviously your child had an allergy no one knew about."(The AAP recommends vaccination on schedule for all children.)

In other words, some of us don't put too much stock in what the AAP says.

While I *AGREE* that today's infant carriers are *NOT* meant to snap into a cart and parents should not believe that infant carriers are *INHERENTLY SAFE* in carts, I totally disagree that it's irresponsible to do this. Anyone with a lick of common sense (and there are lots who lack it), will know that one must hold onto the carrier, make sure it's stable, and not go barreling through the store or parking lots without protecting the baby inside.

While you can certainly say that carriers don't belong there, it's not a one-size-fits-all solution to say that parents shouldn't do it. SOME parents shouldn't do it because they are unable to be mindful of it. OTHER parents can use common sense and weigh the benefits vs the risks.

Otherwise, you may as well just call the shots on everything potentially unsafe that parents do.
post #98 of 138
Thread Starter 
Assessing risk factors is something all parents have to do. Some things take effort, like belting a baby into a car seat but we know the risk is great so it's worth the trouble.

Some risks are easy to avoid, so it's worth the effort, because the effort is so minimal. I didn't leave small objects lying around when my babies were crawling. This was a simple, easy gesture that could have kept by baby from swallowing something dangerous (for the sake of argument, lets leave aside the older-child-with-choking-hazard-toys issue for now). Another parents might saw "Oh my baby never swallows anything" or argue that a specific object wouldn't be life-threatening but I didn't think it through any further than "small object-pick up". It was automatic for me.

An injury due to this too is so easy to avoid. Is it difficult to use a baby carrier? I actually found it easier. Is it too hard to put the car seat inside the basket of the cart? No, and it's so much safer.

A no-brainer!

Parents often blame other parents. "I wouldn't have done that! I would have held on to the cart..." etc. but it only takes a split second to go over a bump you didn't see, have some idiot run into your cart (or wild child) or you took your hand off for that one instant...
post #99 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipsepearl View Post
Assessing risk factors is something all parents have to do.
Agreed. And parents will come to different conclusions based on risk vs benefit. Just because some will think differently on this issue doesn't mean they are irresponsible.

Quote:
Some risks are easy to avoid, so it's worth the effort, because the effort is so minimal. I didn't leave small objects lying around when my babies were crawling. This was a simple, easy gesture that could have kept by baby from swallowing something dangerous (for the sake of argument, lets leave aside the older-child-with-choking-hazard-toys issue for now).
But that's not fair to leave that out. I do have older children with choking-hazard toys, and I cannot possibly pick them all up. So I make myself aware of my infant, where my older children are, what they are playing with, and make sure the baby's not getting into them. It's a risk vs benefit analysis I'm comfortable with.

Quote:
Is it difficult to use a baby carrier? I actually found it easier.
Keyword: You. YOU found it easier. There have been times in MY parenting when baby carrying was impossible due to physical limitations.

Quote:
Is it too hard to put the car seat inside the basket of the cart? No, and it's so much safer.
Yes, it is difficult, esp if you go to SHOP and need the basket for shopping.

Quote:
A no-brainer!
Obviously I have no brain.

Quote:
but it only takes a split second to go over a bump you didn't see, have some idiot run into your cart (or wild child) or you took your hand off for that one instant...
I go slow. And I don't take my hand off. Just like I don't let go of my child's hand when we're walking through the parking lot. Or when they are climbing out of the slippery tub. YOU may take your hand off for one instant, but I don't.

(Not that I even do the carseat on the cart thing that often anyway. Only when truly necessary.)

But, let's go back to the toys. Some toys have a rating on them that children under three should not be allowed to play with them because they are choking hazards. So, what if I let my 2.5 year old play with them? Is it a no-brainer to disallow this? Am I not being irresponsible? I can't possibly keep my eye on my child at ALL times and make sure he isn't mouthing one, can I? What if a sibling runs into him and accidentally causes him to inhale whatever he's mouthing on?

These things are parental judgment calls. I'm sure there are plenty of parents here who let their younger-than-threes play with toys meant for threes-and-up.

Anyway, back to the cart. What if an idiot ran into my cart and it happened to flip? Then the basket wouldn't be much safer for my baby anyway, would it? If all these carts are flipping over so easily, like some people are saying, then no one with a brain should put their babies even in the baskets.

Which brings us back to the AAP's recommendations that NO CHILD should be in the basket anyway, and that any parent *with a brain* who shops with their children should either push or pull a stroller or wagon along with the cart, or bring along another adult at all times.

Totally unrealistic.
post #100 of 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sancta View Post

Which brings us back to the AAP's recommendations that NO CHILD should be in the basket anyway, and that any parent *with a brain* who shops with their children should either push or pull a stroller or wagon along with the cart, or bring along another adult at all times.

Totally unrealistic.
Erm, if someone rams into the wagon or stroller, or they hit a bump and flip over, is that actually going to improve anything? My stroller is far less stable than most shopping carts. My SIL slipped on wet pavement while wearing my DD. DD was OK, but could have been hurt.

There is no risk-free way to move our children through this world, and I am not entirely convinced that the infant seat/shopping cart is really that ridiculously dangerous. It would help if there were some decent statistics on that point. (Statistics on "shopping cart related injuries" doesn't tell me anything, because it's too vague...)

BTW, in 28 years of shopping, I have never seen a cart tip or wobble. I tried to tip the little ones in our mini-store yesterday and it was HARD. With a toddler in the toddler seat.
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