you do support the Judge and believe He is perfect in His judgement.
I think we must have been formulating our posts at the same time bc I missed what you said here. I wonder if I need to take it apart, bit by bit so that we can analyse it fully.... Ill start with what I quoted above.
Im not sure its right to say I support the Judge. I guess it would depend on what you mean by that. But I do believe, without any shadow of a doubt that His judgement is perfect. Yes, I do. Now, support... thats interesting. See, this thread has given me such an awesome opportunity to explore and put into stone what I believe. For me, this is how I learn. I dont know what kind of learner that makes me (I wonder if in these discussions this kind of thing comes into play more then we realise, the reason there is such misunderstanding).
I guess I 'support' God by really genuinely wanting others to know Him the way I do. The way I believe He's revealed Himself to the world. I mean, God is who He
is. I was telling someone privately that if God is who He is, and us humans dont want to accept Him as He is, then for eternity, should God pretend he's something or someone He's not for their sake? I, personally, dont think so.
And really, the best and first thing that comes to mind when I think of God is just HOW much He loves me. I believe God is love. I believe the scripture in 1 John that says that. I believe it first, bc I read it, then I thought 'what the heck does that mean' and he went on to reveal it to me.... ummm in some pretty painful circumstances. In those very same circumstances, I also learned how he loves even those who sin against Him in the worst ways, and how He loves those who hurt those He loves (I dont mind sharing details but dont know if its helpful for the discussion). He's a lot of other things, but His love for us is a crazy love that we do not have to capacity to understand until we meet Him. As in
, it is a love that originated with Him. So I do support
to bring any who want to know His love into ...knowing His love. However bad I am at it. I wish I could do it better. I really do. So, that is how I support Him, I guess.
You're right, it's not a great analogy, LOL. In a human courtroom, the judge would not be the Creator of All Things. But as far as the the analogy goes... the crime the person is being convicted of is not regular human sin, because as you very correctly point out we are all equally guilty of that. It is the crime of not listening when the aha moment happened and they realized that Jesus really is God. Assuming your beliefs are correct, and we have both had that moment (or I will have it before I die) then the fact that I die as a non-Christian means I have rejected God. ... And for that crime I am sent to Hell, and although you are not involved in any way in that decision nor want me to go to Hell (at least I don't think you do! ) you do support the Judge and believe He is perfect in His judgement.
Im going to try to 'tackle' the bit I highlighted, I say try. I dont know if I can do a very good job...
I dont know if its an 'aha' moment, ya know. There may be some who have had an aha moment, for me it was different and I dont know if I can explain it very well. I guess this is the part about human nature that Im trying to understand just as much as you, but perhaps from opposite sides of the fence. For me, as I look back on my life, before and after meeting Christ, it was as if a light switch was turned on the moment I decided to believe. I do not know what happened, or even why, or how. I think everyone's 'conversion' experience may be unique and very different, and special actually, personal and intimate. For my dh, it was very gradual, but from an early early age He knew God was real, and loved Him even tho He didnt know Christ until later. Even still, he's getting to grips with who Christ is, even tho it was HIM who actually led me to Christ. My dh was the one who said 'You need to know Christ' and he said it with a joint in his hand, completely sloshed out of his head and he spent the next 4 or 5 years in that state, while I grew in Christ! I dont know how it happens, or when. Would it offend you Thao, if I said I have been praying for you (or would you expect that? lol). Im not here to try to convince anybody, thats not my intention altho, I will admit that if anything I say pricks anything in anyone, Im not at all sorry. But you have been special in my prayers and heart over these discussions. Anyway...
Assuming your beliefs are correct, and we have both had that moment (or I will have it before I die) then the fact that I die as a non-Christian means I have rejected God. ... And for that crime I am sent to Hell,
This bit is tricky for me to answer, bc as I mentioned before, I dont know the answer to this one. I am being honest. But in saying that, what if it is true and I dont tell you so? Imagine my eternal guilt for not saying so. I would give my place up in eternity for the person *I* led astray! So, while Im exploring this heavy heavy question... I will just say 'what if it is true?' What does one say to that. Do we hate God for making the rules? I dont know if Im talking to someone who is seeking, someone who is trying to make me question my beliefs, I dont know your motives in asking these questions, you see. I want to give you an honest answer. God's revealed things to me slowly and over time. I met Christ, it was like I was a newborn babe (I do understand the being 'born again' bit), then over time God has, and is continuing to slowly reveal these things to me. I sometimes wonder if Christians dont question and search for the answers to these things for themselves and therefore dont have an answer to give when they are questionsed. I dont want to be like that. I ask God 'Why? What does this mean?' He doesnt bend to me as if He should do things my way, but he does slowly reveal things to me as and when Im ready to understand. Sometimes I wonder if he's preparing me for the answer, my heart for being ready to hear the answer. I spent a few years wandering. Questioning these things. Those difficult circumstances I mentioned earlier, those were what brought me back and helped me cover even more ground in my understanding of God and who He is. It was as if in response to those questions I had he had prepared a time for His 'lesson'.
Im sorry that went all over the place.
then the fact that I die as a non-Christian means I have rejected God. ... And for that crime I am sent to Hell
I do believe hell is a real place. I do believe people will be sent there. I guess, to answer your question, I have to say Im seeking a difinitive answer from God too. How do you and I both know whether one has really rejected God? Maybe they are just confused and seeking? Maybe they have recieved him, but still dont understand things and in their rashness said 'rejected' Him. Im confused and seeking? That doesnt mean Im going to Hell. Im certain of my 'ticket' (just for some obligatory christian crass) to heaven. Im certain of it, it is my joy!! My joy is to worship Christ, to throw my crown at His feet! There's a LOOOOOOT more to it, but to sum it up, thats my joy! Knowing Him! Nothing compares! So, in all honesty, to answer your question, I cant answer it yet. I dont doubt God will give me an answer tho and it will be what it is whether I like it or not.
But no, I in absolutely no way want to see you thrown in Hell. I would give up my place in heaven for someone else, if that were possible. Im being sincere here. I just dont believe it works that way.
Thao. I have been thinking a lot about this and some of the things we've discussed. Now, Ill just throw some things out there. We talked about after death and a chance then to 'recognise' Jesus as Savior. I wonder if people's hearts, by that point, will be so hardened with hating Him in this life that they hate Him still then. These are just things Im pondering. What if the 'I cant and wont worship a God 'like that'' is their testimony, and God is like that. I dont think Heaven would be heaven if God 'let them in'. It would be just like earth as we know it now. What people love to do now, apart from God, God calls unholy. And if people want to continue to do those things, what should God do with them? For the sake of those who will love Him for who He is and nothing else and for the sake of who He is, and bc heaven is what it is and its that way bc He's there (!)... See. Im trying to understand these things too and havent come to an answer, but I suppose you can see where Im going, what side of the fence I sit on.
I have to just submit and see if it makes sense now.