Wrestling with the "exclusivity" of Christianity... please help! - Page 2

[AbigailGrace]

Originally Posted by zinemama

I'm interested in this. I've read enough about Christianity that it seems fairly clear to me that Christians must believe that salvation through Jesus is the one and only way to God.

On the other hand, I know there are plenty of Christians who have a "many candles, one light" understanding of different religions. And there are Christian churches with that approach, as well. As a non-Christian, I definitely appreciate that! But at the same time, I don't really understand how they can arrive at that conclusion, given what the Christian Bible says about Jesus's statements, i.e. "No one comes to the Father except through me" (if I have that right?)

Maybe someone can explain?

That's a really good question that I am not really sure about myself. My thought, though, is that some people do believe in a creator verses 'everyone was spontaneously created by a bunch of atoms in an explosion.' The only difference is that they believe in a god (or gods), but not the God spoken about in the bible as they do not believe in the bible's teachings. Now, of course, there are variations to this just as there are variations to what people claim being a "Christian" is. Different strokes for different folks, I guess!

[AbigailGrace]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Well, the thing is, Christianity is not about being good enough to get into Heaven, or bad enough to get an eternal "spanking" in hell. If it was, none of us would end up in heaven. And none of us can ever say with certainty the status of anyone else's salvation.
That idea has been called "works righteousness", and it has caused trouble to many generations because then you do get this confusion with assuming that an outwardly righteous person will burn in hell because they haven't said "the magic words" to be saved, while an outwardly vile sinner spends a luxurious eternity in heaven because they said a certain prayer at some point in their life. Yeah, that's off-putting.

The way I view it, *anyone* can choose to spend an eternity with God. And I believe that because God is just and loving, he does give every one a clear choice. We may not see it from our perspective, or understand how he works, but I believe that every single person has been or will be presented with the opportunity to choose and eternity with God. Heaven is not exclusive based on race, social status, relative "goodness" of behavior, or any other factor. But I do believe that Jesus is the only "gate" to the Father. Believing in him and in his sacrifice on the cross would be rather pointless, if it didn't apply to the whole of humanity. So I do believe we must be "washed clean" through Jesus before we can enter into heaven, but I do not believe that there is anyone, no matter what their "status" in humanity is, who is not offered eternal communion with God through Jesus nor anyone who will be rejected if they choose that.

-------------------------------
**Diversity is a good thing. It challenges us to dig deeper in ourselves to figure out what it is we truly believe, truly stand for in life. And one day, we will all have to stand for something.

[philomom]

You know, this is one of the key reasons that I'm not a xtian anymore.

Lots and lots of good people that I've known do tons of good in the world.... and yet, according to my childhood pastor.. they will roast in the flames upon their deaths. I can't and won't buy it.

[inkedmamajama]

i like to think of a diamond...there are many different facets of a diamond, but when looking at the whole thing? its still a diamond...thats how i think of the different religions and the path to God.

[hrsmom]

ILoveSweetPea- I am a Christian who definitely wrestled with this for awhile! There actually are quite a few scriptures that support the idea of universalism. As they come back to me, I'll post them for you!

As for the question of how a Christian could believe in "universal salvation" when there is that verse in the Bible where Jesus says he is the way and the truth and the life, and no one comes to the father but by him, I'd like to speak to that!

A little background... about 6 years ago I had an intense experience of the love and forgiveness and joy of God. My friends, and the man I was dating at the time, attended a conservative evangelical church. So I became immersed in that culture and those teachings. I bought it lock, stock, and barrell for about a year. My experience of God had been so amazing, and these people "knew the truth" so everything they tought must be right, right? I read the Bible a ton during that first year, and have read it a ton since then! I've read the New Testament hundreds of times, and parts of the so-called Old Testament multiple times. After reading through it so many times, it became clear to me that it was written by men. I see it as an ancient holy text written by people who wrestle with the same things we wrestle with in relation to God. Some of the men (if not all!) were closer to God than I am presently, but men nonetheless. I'm no expert, but that really came through for me the more I read.

There's a historical context to the "I am the Way" statement, having to do with the "Christian Jews" splitting off from the Jewish established religion around 40 years (??? possibly more) after Jesus' death. A lot of what is found in the New Testament reflects the religious arguments and debates of the time. I do not believe Jesus said that. I do believe he taught a way to seek God and he had an understanding of God that is beyond what the average person (myself included) would have.

I believe God forgives everything. That's why they call it "amazing" grace. It's not human forgiveness or human acceptance, it's divine forgiveness. I don't believe Ghandi is in hell, I don't believe Hitler is in hell. As for consequences of "disobedience"- we get to suffer those consequences right here right now!

I used to be a mentor in a youth prison. I was part of a Bible study group, and an outreach type of program. Not because I believed those boys were going to hell if they didn't have a chance to "accept Jesus" (by the way, Jesus has already accepted us!) but because I think spirituality is so important and I just happen to be a Christian. Anyway, to say that people are in prison because they chose to disobey laws or think they're above the law sounds very heartless to me. The young men I mentored were born into such poverty and such abusive homes they really didn't stand a chance. Oh yeah, and they were born into the minority races in this country. I still write a man who was introduced to street drugs at the age of 12, by a 38 year old woman who had sex with him- tell me he deserves to be in prison. But maybe that's just my liberal Christian outlook showing!

God is described as a universal God in the Old Testament as well, Jonah comes to mind.

I came to the belief in God as a universal God long before I became a mother, and when I did become a mother, that clinched it!

[genifer]

I think it's cool how people can come up with different answers to the same prayer.

With all due respect and with no controversy intended, just for the sake of the discussion I wanted to address this simply bc its been on my mind since I clicked off yesterday.

I feel that if people come up with different answers to the same prayer, when the answers are in direct conflict with one another, then one of them has got to be wrong. Im talking about this kind of prayer. It makes me want to search for the truth, which I know can be found, and not settle for anything else. Maybe this is just the way I am.

[2xy]

Originally Posted by AbigailGrace

On the subject of hell, though, my same question still stands: Are there not ramifications for a child disobeying his parent? For an employee who steals from the company he works for? Aren't there rules and regulations in our lives? And if we don't follow them, aren't there consequences? If we steal, we go to jail... a horrible place noone would ever want to go. But were jails and prisons made for good, honest people who obey the law? Who live inside boundaries and do the morally right thing? No. Jails and prisons were made for people who refuse to live by the laws or think they are "above" the law and can do what they want. They are for people who don't think policemen (and the judicial system) have the right to tell them they can't steal and kill. Whether you CHOOSE to steal or you steal because you don't think the rules apply to you, you are still going to prison.

Why is it so hard to think that God, then, put rules into place?

The way I see it is that people have created gods in their own image. And I understand that many Christians believe in the concept of free will, but it doesn't make sense to me....how could a loving, perfect deity create beings who are imperfect and make bad choices? It seems illogical that imperfection could come from perfection. It seems illogical that evil could exist if God is good, since God is allegedly the creator of everything. Moreover, it seems illogical that an omnipotent, omniscient being who is outside of time and space could be as simple as we are.

I respect anyone's right to believe whatever they wish, as long as they hurt nobody else in the process. I do think, however, that you have to really stretch your imagination to believe that the Bible was meant to be taken literally.

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." ~Voltaire

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by genifer

With all due respect and with no controversy intended, just for the sake of the discussion I wanted to address this simply bc its been on my mind since I clicked off yesterday.

I feel that if people come up with different answers to the same prayer, when the answers are in direct conflict with one another, then one of them has got to be wrong. Im talking about this kind of prayer. It makes me want to search for the truth, which I know can be found, and not settle for anything else. Maybe this is just the way I am.

How do you know the truth can be found? I know what I believe - which is that I can't know the ultimate "Truth" and that's okay - and that is why I think it's cool that people come up with different answers, because it reassures me that there is mystery all around us. I love the mystery.

[genifer]

How do you know the truth can be found?

I just know it. I met with the One who claimed to be the Truth, and I trust Him. I know HE is truth. I just know it. There is mystery in it and I too find it fascinating and humbling. Its not something that can be proven, its revealed by the One who is the Truth, Jesus Christ.

[Purple Sage]

Originally Posted by genifer

I just know it. I met with the One who claimed to be the Truth, and I trust Him. I know HE is truth. I just know it. There is mystery in it and I too find it fascinating and humbling. Its not something that can be proven, its revealed by the One who is the Truth, Jesus Christ.

But this is what I don't understand - Why would God not answer everyone who asks what the truth is the same way? I'm sure there have been many, many people like myself who have prayed about this and not received the same answer as you. I can't understand a God who would do something like this - let some people go to Hell because they simply did not get the same message in answer to their prayers.

[MyLittleWonders]

I agree Purple Sage. I love Matthew Fox's writings on the subject (former RC priest; now Episcopalian, if I remember correctly). He likened God to a great under-earth stream of water (groundwater if you will; crystal clear and life-sustaining - and I apologizing for butchering it, it's been a while since I've read his work). There are many wells all over the earth for accessing this life-sustaining water. Not one place/group/people has the monopoly on accessing this water. There is not just one way to dig the well. There is not only one way to carry the water back home. We are all trying to access the water in our own ways. The Bible is one way people have tried to access that living water, if you will. It was written by many men over many centuries to try and put into human words their experience of the Divine. Even the gospels are man's attempt to make sense of their experience with Jesus. To me, he is one of many God-bearers; he just happens to be the face I look to the most, the one with which I most identify. I love learning from other religions, and find much applicable "truth" in them. But the place I go when I am most needing it, it seems based on my history, is to the expression of God found in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, and to a Christian church.

[Ellien C]

There is a lot in this thread, but let me start with the OP.

Originally Posted by ILoveSweetpea

Christians believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God. DH and I struggle with the notion a great deal. Our church is fairly conservative...

Not all Christians believe this. We had an ordained minister who was also Jewish. Her father was a Rabbi. Our church is not conservative, shall we say.

They tell us (and we do see) that the bible is pretty clear on this issue.

Is it? Is it really clear? Do you, in your heart, think Jesus REALLy would have said that? Have you looked at other interpretations of the bible? Have you looked at how a meaning or a word choice might have changed from the original language? Do you know how passages were chosen to be included in our bible? How other stories were thrown out? Some history topics to research might be the Lost Gospels and the Council of Nicea.

Do you know a lot about the time, place and culture in which Jesus and the writers of some of the gospels lived? And some written and lived hundreds of years after Jesus' death.

Have you ever played that kids game telephone? Is it conceivable that some of the writers of the gospel might have misunderstood something? Is it conceivable that in writing what they thought was the inspired, true word of God that something in their own experience, prejudice or culture might have got in the way of that? Could something have been useful and necessary 2000 years ago but not relevant anymore?

How can we accept this? Do we have to accept this? This is such a troubling issue to us. Are there any alternative ways to interpret the scriptures? How do other Christians reconcile this? Do other Christians really believe that (for example) Gandhi is in hell right now? That just seems ... unthinkable!!

My church thinks a bit differently about things than yours. I happily claim the title of Christian (took me a bit o'deciding about this, but I claim feminist, too). I think hell is the separation of self from God. Living alone, in fear, in doubt. I think heaven and hell are states of consciousness that exist for people in this plane here on earth.

I view myself as kind of like wet sand held together in a form. When I die, I think that it's like the sand drying out and going back to a huge beach and becoming one with all the sand there - maybe new grains re-forming and going back into the "wet state." My church teaches that in life we are like a cup of water, but in death it's like rejoining the vast ocean. That works, too, but I always had the sand analogy. We don't have a concept of hell in the afterlife.

So Ghandi has joined the sands of the world. Maybe if we're really, really lucky, we'll get a grain or two of sand that used to be Ghandi's, or Moses' or Jesus' or Buddhas. But each person is unique and you only get one shot on this earth in this plane. Make the most of it.

[sweetjasmine]

Originally Posted by MyLittleWonders

I agree Purple Sage. I love Matthew Fox's writings on the subject (former RC priest; now Episcopalian, if I remember correctly). He likened God to a great under-earth stream of water (groundwater if you will; crystal clear and life-sustaining - and I apologizing for butchering it, it's been a while since I've read his work). There are many wells all over the earth for accessing this life-sustaining water. Not one place/group/people has the monopoly on accessing this water. There is not just one way to dig the well. There is not only one way to carry the water back home. We are all trying to access the water in our own ways. The Bible is one way people have tried to access that living water, if you will. It was written by many men over many centuries to try and put into human words their experience of the Divine. Even the gospels are man's attempt to make sense of their experience with Jesus. To me, he is one of many God-bearers; he just happens to be the face I look to the most, the one with which I most identify. I love learning from other religions, and find much applicable "truth" in them. But the place I go when I am most needing it, it seems based on my history, is to the expression of God found in the Jewish and Christian scriptures, and to a Christian church.

I LOVE this! Another analogy I like is that seekers searching for God begin at various points around the base of a mountain and as they climb they take different paths. In the end, though coming from different directions, they reach the same point at the top of the mountain where God is. I believe we are all searching for the same thing, in essence this "being" or "entity" or what have you that is greater than ourselves and outside of ourselves but we may take different routes to get there.

I was raised Catholic but in my teens became acquainted with fundamentalist Christianity. The guilt due to the tremendous doubt I went thru as a teen and young adult almost convinced me I was doomed to hell. I have since done a ton of reading both online and off and alot of soul searching. I might be called a progressive and liberal Christian nowadays. I don't have time to finish the post right now so I'll have to come back later but I wanted to get this much in and subscribe to the thread.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

Can you expound upon that a little? Because to be honest it has always confused me *how* one would embark on such a venture without it coming basically down to "what we like is true, and what we don't is the product of human flaws."

The bible was not written when Jesus was alive and there is no original document. The farthest back we can go is very early copies. The bible has changed over time, losing some books and gaining others.

In other words, although I am not a Christian, I know many Christians who simply do not find a whole lot of value in the modern bible that most of us read these days. To them, it's a cheat-sheet version at best.

When someone tells me they believe every word in the bible is true, I have to bite my tongue to not ask, "Which bible?"

[Thisbirdwillfly]

Why is it so hard to think that God, then, put rules into place? (including, but not limited to, accepting His Son into our life as we have accepted the Father?)

Because I love my child unconditionally. There is nothing he can do to make me not love him.

The only way I can believe in God is to believe that God's love makes our attempts at unconditional love look very imperfect. A God hung up on "rules" does not fall into that catagory, for me.

I also very much appreciate what hrsmom said about prisions and their population.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by AbigailGrace

On the subject of hell, though, my same question still stands: Are there not ramifications for a child disobeying his parent? For an employee who steals from the company he works for? Aren't there rules and regulations in our lives? And if we don't follow them, aren't there consequences? If we steal, we go to jail... a horrible place noone would ever want to go. But were jails and prisons made for good, honest people who obey the law? Who live inside boundaries and do the morally right thing? No. Jails and prisons were made for people who refuse to live by the laws or think they are "above" the law and can do what they want. They are for people who don't think policemen (and the judicial system) have the right to tell them they can't steal and kill. Whether you CHOOSE to steal or you steal because you don't think the rules apply to you, you are still going to prison.

I think reasonable people might differ on the effectiveness as punishment as a deterrent to future behavior. Sure, there are consequences to all of the things described above. But to me the greatest consequence is not a punishment that can be inflicted by authority, a parent or God. It's what happens to the self when you live in separation and are not living harmony. The worst jail and the worst punishment to me is the one you put yourself in.

In the "heaven on earth" that I want to realize, no person grows up thinking they have no hope and no future but to engage drugs dealing, pimping, prostitution etc. In the heaven I want to imagine everyone has hope and believes they have a chance to make it to contribute, to be part of the beautiful kingdom of heaven on earth. In my own world that means that children speak respectfully to adults and to each other not out of fear of punishment but because everyone has spoken respectfully to them. In non-violent communication this might be thought of as power-with rather than power over.

Now, does this happen in our world and in my world? No, no it really doesn't. I'm the first to admit that my daughter is not always respectful to me or to her teachers although we always try to model that and speak to her often about showing off her "god-light" and letting people see the light in her soul and the light she brings to the world. But I also think this is a gift that she's brought to me and a path she has to walk. Could I do things to "make her obey," and to punish her more swiftly. Absolutely? And I don't because it feels wrong to *my* soul. Because I know there is another way - a power-with, rather than a power over way. I've got so much to learn about that and she's just another little angel here to teach me.

I think on a lot of points we would agree AG. I just wanted to address this issue of punishment by us.

[beansmama]

Sounds like you are in the wrong church then...I mean, if you disagree with the beliefs, why stay?

I'd recommend checking out a UU church - people of all religions are welcome, nobody is condemning anyone, and you are free to make up your own theology, if you desire.

Anyway, I'm atheist so I'm not sure if you'll want my opinion, but I've checked out our local UU church a few times and everyone is really open minded and nice - just thought i'd throw the idea out there

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by ILoveSweetpea

From what I can understand reading the bible and from what I can understand by what my pastor says, Christians believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God. DH and I struggle with the notion a great deal. Our church is fairly conservative, and when we have spoken to our Elders there they have affirmed that the only way to God/Heaven/Salvation is through Jesus. All others need to be saved.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions and wrong teachings in the Christian religions which lead to that sort of misunderstanding.
Here is the verse that has often been misapplied:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

Note that this verse says nothing about heaven or hell.

It merely states that the way to the Father is through the Son.
According to the orthodox understanding of God as being triune or three/one, the Father, Son, and Spirit are all the One God. The Son is - or was at that time - visible and contactable while the Father was not. Now, the Son is no longer visible, but we still contact the Father through the Son. Christ is the reality of God - He is God realized and expressed.
It is a mystery and not something that can really be explained properly.
But, there is only One God and He exists as the Father/Son/Spirit.

When we are saved, it is through Jesus.
Is it possible that some people are saved without knowing that it is through Jesus? I suppose it might be, but I am not really aware of such instances.

To me it is like going somewhere and you can only get there on a certain road.
And you are driving and you get lost and you wind up at the correct destination.
You never saw any road signs, but you still got there.
If there is only one road to that place, then logic would have it that you were on that road even though you did not see any signs naming the road that you were on.

For me, and everyone I know, it did not work that way though.
I was raised Jewish and was told that God existed and was told certain things about God. But, I did not come to know and experience God so I was not sure if He really existed at all.

When I prayed to Jesus, He came into me as my life and I knew Him and I knew that God exists because He now lives in me.

Originally Posted by ILoveSweetpea

DH and I have friends of other faiths. Maybe we aren't being good Christians, but we've never attempted to convert them. We don't believe they are going to hell... we just can't believe that. I don't understand how someone who seeks God and lives a moral life could be condemned to hell just because he or she is not Christian.

If you read the Bible, you will see that the concept of condemnation to hell is not exactly what is taught in Christianity.
I don't see being saved as merely salvation from hell, but as having Christ in me now as my life and my enjoyment.
The Bible says that if someone seeks God with all of his heart, he will find Him. So, your moral people who seek God may find Him and may not be condemned even if they do not identify with the Christian religion.
However, moral people who reject God are another story.

I do not understand the Christian hoopla about life after death and heaven and hell.
Who knows really what happens after we die?
What may or may not happen after people die is not the main thing that being a Chrisitian is or should be about.
Isn't what happens right now more important and more believable and real?
And what happens right now is that right now we can experience and enjoy the Lord as our life, light, peace, hope, faith and love. He is the reality of every positive thing in the universe! Why wouldn't someone want that?

[Smokering]

I do believe the "Jesus is the only way" line, so here are a few thoughts:

If there were other ways for people to get into heaven, why would God have done the unthinkable and separated the Trinity, sacrificed His Son and caused a heck of a lot of pain to Himself? Why not just say "Well, we already have A, B and C religions and X, Y and Z religions will come along shortly"? If Jesus' death wasn't necessaryfor salvation, why did God do it?

Similarly, if faith in Jesus isn't necessary for salvation, why does the Bible put such a huge emphasis on evangelism - both to Jews, who already had a religion, and Gentiles, who were a mixture of non-religious and religious people?

Thirdly, "my loved ones should get into heaven because they're good people" doesn't really engage with the Biblical worldview. They're not "good people" in God's eyes, to begin with; and getting into heaven isn't based on works, so that's a red herring.

I'd certainly like all my friends and family to be in heaven - it would be nice to believe they'd be there regardless of belief. Unfortunately, I don't think it's what the Bible teaches; and I believe religion is about finding the truth, not believing something that makes me feel cozy. Some of the truths of Christianity are hard; but that doesn't make them untrue. That's the way life goes - I'd be happier believing the family friend who died this morning was hadn't actually died, but the facts don't support the case, KWIM?

So from that perspective, I think the important thing is to find out what the Bible actually says - what the writers were conveying to the original audience. Not "how can I spin this to make it more palatable?", but "what does it say?" It seems to me you're looking for loopholes - and with respect, I don't think that's an intellectually honest way to approach theology. It wouldn't fly in any other discipline (well, it shouldn't...). It sounds like you have a lot of philosophical thinking ahead of you. Ask yourself, if the exclusivity of Christianity goes against your moral intuitions, where you got those moral intuitions and how to determine if they're reliable. Ask yourself how a non-Jesus-only model of salvation fits with your larger theology.

Good luck! This is a huge area of study.

[z2akids]

I do not believe that we can know who is saved. Absolutely, the path to salvation is through Jesus. However, that doesn't mean that those who do not know Jesus are doomed to an eternity outside the presence of God. I think it's arrogant to say that we know what God can or will do. Just because Jesus told us that He is the Way the Truth and the Light doesn't mean that God has limited Himself to saving only Christians.

The Catechism of the Catholic Faith expresses our belief as Catholics that those of Jewish faith have a place in heaven.

I think of it this way - if I tell my 3 children that they need to do XYZ in order to get to go to a movie. Children #1 and #3 do as I ask, while child #2 didn't even hear me tell him to do XYZ. As the parent, I have the ability to decide to allow child #2 to go to the movie, even though he didn't put in the work that #1 and #3 put in.

God is omnipotent. What makes us arrogant enough to believe that we can limit what He can or will do? Now, that doesn't mean that I think we should take a free reign and run willy nilly doing our will and ignoring what we understand to be His will to the best of our ability. But, if the Lord chooses to keep any or all of His children in His presence for all of eternity, who are we to say that they didn't follow the rules?

I cannot imagine Ghandi not spending eternity with the Lord, but do I know he will? No. But, even if he were Catholic, I couldn't know with certainty that he was with God.

And, I want to add that I am not a theology student and while I believe my beliefs are consistent wtih my faith, I am not a scholar of the Catholic faith.