Unconditional Parenting, or Consensual Living and If You have child(ren) over 6yo...

[Cavy]

Tell me, please, what motivates your DC if it's not a "What's in it for me?", motivation.

DD(8) responds well out of habit or for praise (I realise not UP at all), and DS(9) will sometimes do things out of reflex because he's had reasonable manners drilled into him, but in terms of getting them to consistently and reasonably quickly cooperate for reasons I consider logical, not a chance of it.

Must be someone out there having a great time with UP philosophy and older children. I would love to stop resorting to threats and rewards, but I need some tangible examples of how that works in practice.

[Cavy]

Tumbleweed blows by in the wind........

[sunnmama]

We are neither of these philosophically, but I largely parent my 8 yo without threats and rewards (I am not opposed to using them--strongly considering instituting a reward program to help my 2.5 yo with potty learning in the coming months--but I generally don't have a need for them with my dd at age 8).

My 8 yo is motivated by a lot of things.

She does her homework because she wants to please her teacher and feel good about having her work done. I don't do homework battles; if she resists (and occasionally does), I step out and say "it is up to you to do it or not ". She always does it in the end.

She cleans her room because she likes a tidy space, or because she wants to have a friend over and our rule is "clean first, then invite people over" (obviously not CL). It isn't presented as a reward "If you clean your room, you can invite a friend over". We assume she will have a friend over every Sat, and so she tidies her room on Fri night in preparation (just as I would clean in preparation for a guest).

She feeds the dog because he is hungry.

She helps set the table because she is hungry.

She shares with her brother because she adores him (he is only 2.5), and it pleases her to see him light up with joy.


She has never been a laid back child, but she is pretty darn cooperative and eager to help at this age---when she is feeling ok. When she is struggling (tired, anxious, hungry, jealous, etc), then we see more of the oppositional behaviors that were common when she was younger.


Maybe if you give an example of a particular struggle, you will get more helpful responses?

[mamazee]

The problem with CL as far as your OP goes is the part where you say, "For reasons I find logical." I am not 100% CL, though I am pretty UP I think, but anyway the point with it is that the reasons you find logical would not be the only relevant reasons.

For me, if I want my dd to do something and she says no, she usually gives me a reason, but if she didn't I'd ask, and I wouldn't worry about whether I thought the reason was good or not. I'd just work with it. You want to read for a while longer before you clean? Well I want the cleaning done within the next half hour so I have time to vacuum before I start on dinner. We work with each other and find something that works for both of us, and I try not to evaluate whether her reasons are good or not. If I start evaluating her reasons and deciding if they're good enough, she'll start evaluating mine, and we'll start arguing over whose reasons are more valid. It's better if we both respect each other's reasons and find something that works for both of us.

[seriosa]

Sorry no answers, But I'm glad you asked the question. It seems that most threads on here are about toddlers or smaller children. Its sort of hard to see how to apply these principles to an older child who has discovered that its nice to be lazy, and that games and TV are more fun than helping out around the house. A PP mentioned for example that her DD helps without threats or rewards, yet what I see is

[QUOTE=sunnmama;14452916]We are neither of these philosophically, but I largely parent my 8 yo without threats and rewards (I am not opposed to using them--strongly considering instituting a reward program to help my 2.5 yo with potty learning in the coming months--but I generally don't have a need for them with my dd at age 8).

My 8 yo is motivated by a lot of things.

She does her homework because she wants to please her teacher and feel good about having her work done. I don't do homework battles; if she resists (and occasionally does), I step out and say "it is up to you to do it or not ". She always does it in the end. [QUOTE]

Her reward is the teachers approval (or the threat is the disapproval)

[QUOTE]
She cleans her room because she likes a tidy space, or because she wants to have a friend over and our rule is "clean first, then invite people over" (obviously not CL). It isn't presented as a reward "If you clean your room, you can invite a friend over". We assume she will have a friend over every Sat, and so she tidies her room on Fri night in preparation (just as I would clean in preparation for a guest). [QUOTE]

But can she have friends over if she doesn't clean up?

[QUOTE]
She helps set the table because she is hungry. [QUOTE]

My DS has laying the table as his chore, and on good days (honestly these are most days) he does it without much complaint. Some days though he really puts his foot down against it, and my (nonCL, probably non-UP) response is "If you don't set the table, you will skip supper".

The thing I see is that my child just doesn't have an adults sense of responsiblity or duty (of course). But I believe that he must learn these, and therefore when he has duties he must perform them even against his will. So I have to become an enforcer of household laws, and at the end of the day, threats and rewards are what work. These don't have to be explicit all the time, but they are part of the rules. So my DS knows that he must pick up his room before he can watch TV. I don't have to remind him every day, or even most days. But the day he refuses, I must enforce that the TV is staying off untill the room is picked up.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by seriosa

Her reward is the teachers approval (or the threat is the disapproval)
.

Sure, just as her reward for sharing with her friends is that they enjoy playing with her and come again.

That is actually a big issue I have with UP. I believe rewards are everywhere, even in our genuine smile when our dc do something cute. But I also believe these realities are different from parent imposed rewards and consequences, designed to change behavior (although I reserve a place for them, too).

But can she have friends over if she doesn't clean up?

Yes. In the past, I just cleaned it up myself. But that gave her less control over when she could invite someone over. The reality for her is, it is better to clean it herself on her schedule, and then have more flexibility to invite a friend over (because mom is busy managing the rest of the household, and probably won't get to my room until half way through Sat!).

eta....but the "clean first, then invite guests" rule is firm.

[harrietsmama]

subbing...I am trying to learn UP right now. I have been very gentle all along, but I am just cringing at some of the things I have done when I read the child's perspective. ITA that there are innate rewards all over the place, but my goal is to move from the extrinsic to the intrinsic. I hope it's not too late. My ds is 7 1/2 and my dd is 9 1/2.

our biggest challenge is respectful tone of voice and interrupting. I know it will take time, but reading UP has given me far more understanding of how to effectively communicate with my kids from *their* perspective.

IME trying something new only works when you stop pulling out the old as a last resort, it totally undermines your efforts. It takes time and patience to allow the unwinding of the old method and the growth of the new method. My son will now come to me and tell me stuff about why he did or didn't do something I asked, or did something to his sister etc.

The other day he told me in the car that he was getting in trouble and being mean on purpose so everyone would just leave him alone and his desk would be all by itself. Feeling trusted by my children has been the biggest reward for me, for all the days I wanted to scream and rip my hair out from the he said/she said, that's not fair. I stuck to 'let's take a break and try again' type stuff, and when I lost it I was honest - I'm so frustrated because I don't know how to help you get along and be happy together, and we don't have enough room for you to be apart, I am so sad because I see you hurting each other with words and I want to help you work together but I don't know how type stuff. This isn't from the book I'm reading, it was just what I could figure out. I started reading UP about a week ago and I am loving it.

it is really a hard transition, if you can let go of wanting it to work right now and embrace the chaos for about 6 months, I believe it will be worth it.

[mamazee]

I don't think the fact that there are punishments and rewards elsewhere in a child's life means that UP isn't useful. It's the P part of that - the fact that the parent specifically isn't using rewards and punishment is the part that I think is important. Yes, my daughter has a sticker chart at school. That doesn't mean that my efforts to work with her to find solutions instead of imposing rewards and punishments to get her to do things is a waste of time. This is her home, and we are her parents, and what happens here is what matters most.

I would love it if her school didn't use rewards, but I'm happy with just making our home UP. She understands that home and school are different.

[boheime]

My oldest is turning 7. He does things because they make him happy... because he cares about others...for some things its because we have talked about reasons behind doing something and he may have concluded that he agrees with my (or dh's) reasoning or he has come up with his own reasoning for it...there are many reasons he does things, just as there are many reasons I do things...

We don't punish or reward in our household. We treat each other with love and respect.

Someone once used the corporate world as a reason against UP. I don't model my relationships with my children on the corporate world, so it really doesn't bother me that my children may grow up and decide to deal with that (or not). That will be their choice. It shouldn't dictate how we interact with each other.

[Cavy]

Ooh! I'm so glad some replies came along.

Punishment/threats/bribes I try to keep as last resorts, but the bottom line is quite often I need to get something done to a deadline. We HAVE to get to school, I MUST start cooking dinner, and I just don't have time to keep waiting for someone's tantrum to end. Or my nerves can't handle the screaming tantrum any more.

Two examples I can think of right now:
1)
If my 5yo son gets frustrated when he's getting dressed in the mornings sometimes he starts tirading, this shirt is impossible, these socks are too small, these shoes are too big (etc.). Often I promise him a chocolate raisin if he'll just wear them anyway. He instantly says okay, stops moaning about the misbehaving clothing, and BOTH of us forget about the chocolate raisin. But if I didn't snap him out of his mood quickly, I could end up with 15 minutes of screaming tantrum from him instead, which would destroy my nerves and he might damage property or people in the meantime.

2)
DC are required to do chores to get TV or computer time (nothing else motivates them to help me with chores). And with 4 kids in the house and a husband who works long hours, I need the DC's help with chores. PLUS, I refuse to raise children who haven't a clue how to cook or clean or use the household appliances.

They do not give a fig if the house is clean, if their clothes are clean, or if they can't find their own toys and clothes (their rooms are scary messy, which I can mostly live with). DC turn into nightmares if they aren't fed, plus I need them to eat by a certain time so they can get to bed by certain time and get up and out to school by certain time -- so I can't rely on hunger as a motivating force (they would rather sit and moan about how hungry they are then actually help me prepare a meal). I don't understand what would motivate DC to help with chores if not our current system.

[harrietsmama]

Mamazee - ITA we can't control other environments. My exh doesn't parent exactly the way I do and it undermines my efforts, but I am continuing anyhow, and am slowly getting through. I tell him what I am doing and the progress I see and I hope one day it will click for him as well. But I do what I do in my own home and my kids understand as well as possible that home is home, daddyhome is daddyhome, and school is school.

Cavy, I hear your issues. On the clothes, my mom said when I was really little I drove her nuts with clothes and she figured out it was the indecisiveness about where to start. I'm a libra. Once she told me to start with socks, start with the left, then so on, I was all happy and got dressed quickly. Can you think of anything that might be interfering with your son? My kids have *really* sensitive feet. It has been worth the effort to find socks they find comfy, and stick with that brand. spending an extra dollar is worth the day to day peace. The ones we get have extra lycra in them and have really smooth seams. Their dad also taught them how to adjust the seam so it doesn't land across their pinky toes (he also has really sensitive feet).

Perhaps spending an afternoon or whatever going through his clothes with him and letting him show you what he *does* like and pulling out the things that are intolerable to him will help him see you are trying to help, and he may be more cooperative, and you may end up with more of an idea of the pieces that are successful for him to wear.

On the chores part, I need the kids help too, but I frame it differently. I tell them "I need your help for this much time. After that we can do what you want to do. These are the things I need done, which ones can you help with?" I do this for shopping or other boring-to-kids stuff too, "we'll do something you want to do after" It may take a few times, but the time limits and the choices tend to achieve more cooperation. My kids really like the 27 fling boogies and hot spot fire drills from Flylady. I don't do flylady, and never successfully pulled it off, but these aspects did stick for me.

I hope something in there helps you make things more enjoyable for you guys

[Cavy]

More examples:

3) Reward.
DD8 & DS9 have very messy rooms. Occasionally (like once every 6 weeks) I'll tell them that we can have a day out somewhere special, as long as they tidy the floors of their rooms before the Big day. They do this enthusiastically. I want the floor clear so I can vacuum or sweep, else the dustbunnies and grime acrues to levels I find intolerable. If I asked them to tidy just so I can sweep, the reply would always be 'Later', "I'm busy", "It's too much", etc.
There's a health and hygiene aspect to this, DD is a terrible hoarder, we had a maggot infestation after she snuck a dead starling in. And DS is a bad one for keeping dirty plates and bowls in his room. Also, I need to access stored things in their rooms (like extra towels), and I don't like DC yelling at me because I can't help but kick over or step on their toys or papers all over the floor.

4) Fighting (punishment). This is my biggest parenting headache, usually over something they didn't care about 10 minutes previously and will promptly forget about again, like a piece of driveway gravel.

In theory they should sit down and amically work out their dispute. Instead, I have to hold one in each arm while they attempt to kick and hit each other. Frustrated by not being able to wreak violence, they resort to sticking out tongues, verbal insults, etc. At this point I resort to fining them money for each offense (10p per insult or kick). This works quickly (usually). They will not stop just because I point out that they are being "unkind" or similar. I know someone will suggest sending them to their rooms instead, but that doesn't work when you need to leave the house in 2 minutes, or when you're away from home.

There's no point in saying "We'll talk about this later", because the dispute is always over something TOTALLY TRIVIAL; like who gets to have a soiled pizza box. They won't remember themselves a few hours later what the argument was about -- and no way I can manage to remember, either. But I do need them to calm down quickly at the time so that we can walk along without violence or insults -- hence why I resort to fines.

[sunnmama]

When my clothing-sensitive kid was smaller, we would often have her go to bed in clean, comfy clothing to wear the next day

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Cavy

3) Reward.
DD8 & DS9 have very messy rooms. Occasionally (like once every 6 weeks) I'll tell them that we can have a day out somewhere special, as long as they tidy the floors of their rooms before the Big day. They do this enthusiastically. I want the floor clear so I can vacuum or sweep, else the dustbunnies and grime acrues to levels I find intolerable. If I asked them to tidy just so I can sweep, the reply would always be 'Later', "I'm busy", "It's too much", etc.
There's a health and hygiene aspect to this, DD is a terrible hoarder, we had a maggot infestation after she snuck a dead starling in. And DS is a bad one for keeping dirty plates and bowls in his room. Also, I need to access stored things in their rooms (like extra towels), and I don't like DC yelling at me because I can't help but kick over or step on their toys or papers all over the floor.
.

I'm a pretty matter-of-fact parent. I would outlaw food in the bedrooms, and declare a day "room cleaning day" for each of them. They can clean alone, with me, or I can clean alone. Whatever they choose. But, of course, you keep a whole lot more control over your environment if you participate. As the adult, it is my responsiblilty to make sure our home is healthy for everyone.

I like Harrietsmama's ideas about chores, in general. "This is what needs to be done. What do you choose to do?" I generally find it helps to clean with my kids. They catch on that, if we all pitch in, it gets done faster and we get to the fun stuff sooner.

If getting them to help prepare meals is a struggle, is it possible they have low-blood sugar at that time? Maybe offer a snack to nibble while cooking?

[Cavy]

There's nothing wrong with DS's clothes. He's just got a volatile temperment, especially first thing in the morning and needs powerful distractions to snap out of it. LIke I said, I promise the chocolate raisin just to chivvy him along at the moment(s) when he's grumpiest, and then he instantly forgets (for the whole rest of the day) about both the clothing problem that was a huge brief crisis, AND he forgets to ever collect on the raisin.

"I need your help for this much time. After that we can do what you want to do. These are the things I need done, which ones can you help with?".

But doesn't that only work if they need you do to help them do something? Why shouldn't they just ignore you and wander off to do their own thing?

I have had the recurring experience of us being about to go somewhere (that DC desperately want to go to), and I say "Hang on, I just need to hang this laundry out" or something like that. I suggest that we could go sooner if DC helped me, but they very rarely do, even though they truly want to get going.

[The4OfUs]

Hav eyou tried asking them for input? What is their reason for not helping? If it's because they don't feel like they should have to, then I'd have a frank conversation with them about you not being their handservant and that a household is the responsibility of everyone living in it to help it run smoothly. I'd list out chores that need to be done and have them pick which to do, and then maybe make a chart so they can check things off - NOT to get a reward, but just to keep track. I'd also probably have a conversation with them about it being bothersome that they only seem to do something when there's a reward or threat looming, and ask if they have any ideas about solving that, too. I think theyre' definitely old enough to be part of the solution. And if they won't, then I'd honestly be pretty direct and frank with them that the current arrangement is not working and that if they don't come up with some solutions you will, and they will not involve rewards for things they should be doing anyway.

That's all I have time to type at the moment, I'll think on the fighting thing more later, but I think you need to disengage from that, personally. I know you said you tried and it becomes physical, but beyond physically separating them I don't think you should do anything to penalize them, because it would seem to just make them feed off each other more.

I think it's time for a real, age appropriate "come to Jesus" with them, if it involves posting house values, charts, lists, whatever.

[harrietsmama]

yep, for us food stays in the dining kitchen area unless we have a specified indoor picnic, with a sheet for easy clean up.

On the fighting, I agree, your personal involvement is not needed at this stage. If you aren't at home, it's time to leave. Period. If you are at home, "Is this really that important?"

I agree that family meetings, with a speaking staff if necessary - I'm thinking at this point you need it - would likely help a lot. Get a big pad of paper, over sized or something, or hand out sheets of paper for individual writing to share after everyone calms down, and have everyone help

What is working?
what is the most important thing you want everyone to know about you?
what is your favorite thing about each family member?
what do you need the most help with?
what is your number one pet peeve?
What can you do to help make the home happier?
what can we do together to make things happier?

start there or with something similar and see what happens.

If you keep resorting to p/r things will keep getting worse, really.

If they give each other a black eye once, what's the worst that can happen? do you think it will happen again? Especially if you stand back while they are fighting and look at them like they've lost their minds?

Granted - my children haven't been much for fighting, but at the beginning of the school year last year, my son was caught choking his sister, chasing her with a baseball bat, I got called to school 3 times in one week and several other times - for choking a kid on the play ground, socking a kid in the jaw, pinching a kids nipple, etc.

Punishment wasn't working (time out, no movie whatever) I started hugging him in direct response to outbursts, in addition to my usual hugging. He needed more. He finally told me one day the lunch room was too overwhelming to him and I checked back with the RTC lady and she said that most of his stuff did happen at lunch so we arranged for him to have lunch outside of the lunch room when he wanted it. Made a HUGE difference.

This has been a huge long process for me and it was not easy. My house was a wreck, my kids had messy hair, they ate hotdogs every day sometimes, but I decided my priority was to change our interpersonal relationships and heal us. at first there was lots of yelling and crying, and I took the brunt of it and said a million apologies for stuff I didn't do, but my kids trust me now in a way I don't think *I* have ever trusted anyone else. My dd is starting puberty and has a million questions and feelings and while my friends dds' are being cranky and mysterious, I'm the confidant and having the most fabulous talks with my daughter! And my son knows he can throw a holy rollin meltdown and I will still give him a hug, but he also knows that if he can see it coming I will help him figure out how to diffuse it, even if it means we have to cut a shopping trip short or leave after the first firework gets set off ( he has a minor hearing loss that can send him outer limits).

big giant hugs to you mama, this is so not meant to judge you or make it sound easier than it feels, it isn't. I promise it's worth it though

[harrietsmama]

Originally Posted by Cavy

There's nothing wrong with DS's clothes. He's just got a volatile temperment, especially first thing in the morning and needs powerful distractions to snap out of it. LIke I said, I promise the chocolate raisin just to chivvy him along at the moment(s) when he's grumpiest, and then he instantly forgets (for the whole rest of the day) about both the clothing problem that was a huge brief crisis, AND he forgets to ever collect on the raisin.

"I need your help for this much time. After that we can do what you want to do. These are the things I need done, which ones can you help with?".

But doesn't that only work if they need you do to help them do something? Why shouldn't they just ignore you and wander off to do their own thing?

I have had the recurring experience of us being about to go somewhere (that DC desperately want to go to), and I say "Hang on, I just need to hang this laundry out" or something like that. I suggest that we could go sooner if DC helped me, but they very rarely do, even though they truly want to get going.

Somehow I missed this post. If you offer the raisin, whether or not he remembers to ask for it, if it happens regularly, you ought to fork over the raisin because if/when he catches on, you've proven that you won't follow through so not only is he not motivated for himself, he's no longer motivated for you.

Do they wander off? Heck yeah! They have a kids' attention span. Hey Crispin, can you get the socks in the hamper? one or two socks in, then legos grab his attention. Crispin, socks oh yeah! a few more socks. army guys. How about some shirts now? ok! army guys...are you still helping me? yeah I got 4 socks and I'll get these shirts, and those jeans and the pajamas and harriets stuff and (dancing in a circle).Ok that's great honey, let's get it done so we can go to the library. ok paper and glue. do you want to do craft stuff instead of the library today? no I want to go to the library! can you get the stuff all in the hamper then so we can go? ok! grbs the rest and jumps in the hamper and falls over laughing, now it's all on the floor, we pick it up together. It might seem like a waste of time, but I never asked him to do stuff before, and he has to learn how, and he's 7 and 7's are notorious for getting distracted every 5 seconds. Harriet will try to find a reason why she can't help, or get a mysterious ache, but usually if I just acknowledge her reason/ache, and explain why I need *her* help for this many minutes and how we all benefit, it usually only takes 3 or 4 tries to get her to do something. It is better now than it used to be, it just takes willingness to be a broken record.

Have you read any Alfie Kohn? Where did you learn about Unconditional Parenting? I think if you read it you might feel a little more confident about how to let go of some of the, well, animosity you're feeling. That word is stronger than I want but I can't think of a better one. You sound so *sure* your kids will never try or cooperate. They won't initially. That's a reality. But once you can reframe what you see from their perspective, it may help you learn how to work through situations in the moment. I've only read 4 chapters and I've already found myself more creative and also more tolerant.

My Dp on the other hand could hardly sit through dinner tonight with out ripping his hair out b/c the kids didn't like my sloppy joes - I made them too spicy. I always ask them to sit at the table until we are all done. Sometimes they want to do something specific, and sometimes I agree, but if they are just running around making noise and stuff I ask them to keep us company. Usually if they don't like dinner, they can either make something themselves or wait until I am done to help them. today we are out of sandwich stuff so they had to wait. Harriet was whiny and Crispin was like a jack in the box on helium. I asked him, oh about 90 times to sit down and have an inside voice conversation, finally I asked him if he could poop out some super glue and glue himself to his chair, worked! Harriet just needs some mimicry to make her laugh, but today she was bummed that she didn't like what I made b/c she thought she would. Then she was extra bummed b/c we had no bread or tortillas (I have a heinous cold so we are in need of the store!) So I told her I would help her as soon as I was done. I showed her some empathy and it was a little better. I cajoled them through eating their carrots and celery which they like, they were just really wound up. They were noisy, it was tiring, and I was like 'thank god dinner is OVER!' but on to the next thing. Tom was ready to jump out the window. I dunno, I guess knowing more about what they experience is making it easier for me to deal.

Am I off my rocker?

[Roar]

Cavy-
I'm not clear about something. Do you want to stop using rewards and bribes? If so, why? If you want to stop using the bribes why don't you simply stop and force yourself to find other ways to handle situations.

I don't think you can really expect kids to develop other motivations when over and over again they are being sent the message that when they don't like something your response will be to bribe them. No place in that process is anyone having to learn new skills or problem solving.

[Cavy]

Do I want to stop using bribes and rewards? No, actually the chocolate raisin trick works brilliant, I haven't felt the need to bother with that in ages. I just don't like the moments when it seems like all I have to motivate them with, or when it doesn't work and nothing else does either!.

I will try to read and respond to more carefully the other posts when I have time.

I'm still not sure if I have anything like an answer to my original question, about motivation.