Unconditional Parenting, or Consensual Living and If You have child(ren) over 6yo... - Page 2

[terrabella]

Originally Posted by Cavy

Tell me, please, what motivates your DC if it's not a "What's in it for me?", motivation.

<snip>

Must be someone out there having a great time with UP philosophy and older children. I would love to stop resorting to threats and rewards, but I need some tangible examples of how that works in practice.

You're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

What motivates you? Can you honestly say that at it's root, it's not truly "What's in it for me?"? Pick your most selfless act, mundane or fantastic, it really doesn't matter. Now dig under the top layers of that action. And what's really under that selfless act? In the end, it serves you, even if that just be the clean feeling in your soul.

"Threats and Rewards" is a harsh phrase.

It conjures images of "Clean up this mess or I'll whip you." and "Clean up this mess and mommy will give you a big sunday with extra cherries!". And that's not what's really going on in your house, now is it?

We all function on threats and rewards. And it's not negative. In fact life would be pointless without them.

Did you do your dishes today? Feed your kids? Turn the heat on? Use the computer? Help the neighbor? Etc? Can you see where all of these activities tie into threats and rewards? What happens if you don't feed your kids and wash the dishes? What happens before you're able to sit down at MDC?

This is life. We do things to avoid negative outcomes and reap the benefits of a job well done.

There is nothing unhealthy about that.

There is nothing anymore unhealthy about a child needing to make their bed an put away their laundry, before playing a game; then there is a mother putting the laundry in the wash, and putting on a pot of stew, before sitting down with a cup of tea to read her daily blogs.

And just as the child who refuses to clean their room, cannot have friends over. Neither can the mother who would rather be online all day rather than clean her house, have girlfriends over for lunch.

And of course, my kids get exceptions, because *I* get exceptions too. Some days I don't get out of my pajamas. I feed the kids easy food, and do little else but nurse and change the baby, and play Guild Wars. And my kids have those days too. Sometimes we have those days on the same day. And boy are we facing the natural consequences the next day when we all have to clean up after ourselves. .

That's life. And it's good.

I'm thinking that the problem lay not so much in your system, as it does in your outlook of it.

My kids are almost 12, 10.5, 4 and almost 1, BTW. And we live CL.

There is another thing that motivates my kids. Empathy. They jump in willingly when someone else, from oldest (DH) to youngest is having a rough time, or is overwhelmed.

But again, we're back to rewards, aren't we? They feel good when they've helped someone in need, don't they? I don't know about you, but feeling good is an awesome reward.

Originally Posted by Cavy

Tumbleweed blows by in the wind........

[Cavy]

"...let's get it done so we can go to the library"
How is that not a reward?

I suppose we rejected the talking stick approach years ago because we knew there was no way DS2 could obey it, and the others would riot if they had to be quiet and take turns and he wasn't following the rules. Ds2 might be able to manage now that he's 5yo and school has institutionalised him. I will mull it over.

Just the torture itself of having to sit thru a talking stick approach and writing out sheets about their feelings might be enough to make DC snap into relating to each other better -- they wouldn't risk having to do THAT again, lol.

I read Unconditional Parenting by AKohn. I can't help wondering what his academic colleagues (fellow educators) have to say about his work; he only addresses a few rather selective possible criticisms in the book.

So no, I'm not rejecting rewards-bribery-punishment out of hand, Terrabella! I just don't like it when they are the only tools I have! So if I understood better how UP is supposed to work, then maybe I'd have a more diverse and better parenting toolbox.

[terrabella]

Originally Posted by Cavy

I just don't like it when they are the only tools I have! So if I understood better how UP is supposed to work, then maybe I'd have a more diverse and better parenting toolbox.

Well, I haven't read UP. Frankly parenting books tend to me, so I avoid them. But of course, I'm familiar with what AK teaches, and I'm supportive of the concept and framing, but the minute details of any system, have to be worked out on a personal level. Hence why I hate parenting books. The rules and guidelines laid out by professionals, (who usually weren't even with their kids 24/7, like most of us are) simply don't fit.

Again, on our perspective. You see it as the only tools you have.

Well, children need to be taught. This is why they have parents. I do believe in and practice free-range parenting. Absolutely. However, I *do* recognize that children need to be taught and somewhat molded.

Think about a toddler. Screaming, hitting, biting, throwing food, running out in traffic, pulling the cat's tail, flushing shampoo down the toilet.

What do you do? You teach, encourage, mold, yes, even "train".

Name the good behaviors that came naturally to your kids. Now list the ones that were taught. And yes, setting a good example is teaching.

It does not come naturally to clean up after yourself, do your homework, or turn off the TV if you're watching something you like.

And if not taught, it probably never will. I think we've all met at least one of those adults, haven't we?

How long did you help your kids potty-learn? How many trips to the toilet? How many clean-ups? How many affirmations? How many reminders? All part of training, right?

It is not strange at all, that with children your ages, you have to keep illuminating why "you must do A before you get to B".

Your tool box is equipped just fine. These are excellent tools for life lessons.

"If you won't put on your shoes, you cannot go out and build a snowman."

That is a very pure, and beautifully simple tool. Why does it need to be more complicated? In fact, I love the honesty of it. Anything else would feel manipulative to me.

"If you guys won't help me with the garage, then I won't have time to make dinner, and help you with your costume. Worse, if the garage doesn't get cleaned out, we can't park the car, and then it won't start in the morning. Now what happens if your father cant get to his job in the morning because of a dead car? That's right. Now get out here and help me. With all of us working, it will be over faster, and then we'll have time for the things that we'd all rather be doing, ok?"

Now the negative eye sees guilt, threat, bribery, and ultimatum in that. Ok, yeah. If you break it all down, sure. No argument here on that. I know.

But as a whole, it's just an excellent learning opportunity for our children. Natural consequences, helping others, being a part of the family, helping ourselves, showing gratitude, and etc.

How are those bad tools?

"Well, the garage is finally clean! Boy that really sucked. Let's make sure it never gets that bad again, shall we? Thank you for helping me I know you didn't want to, and your father and I really appreciate that you share the load with us, even when you don't want to. I didn't want to do it either. But now, it's so much better for us that we're done! This is going to be such a treat for your dad. Come on, we're all grumpy and tired, we deserve a reward. Pizza and movies!"

One could choose to come away with: "Ugh, I wish they would just want to help. I'm so sick of telling them to help. Threatening them about not having time to play. Bribing them with rewards when the job is done.Yuck. I just can't get the hang of this CL thing. Why don't they want to help???"

Or on could come away with "Wow, today was awesome. I'm so glad that they I could stress how necessary it is to get an important job done sometimes, even when we don't want to do it. And how good it feels to enjoy that self reward at the end. I love that today they learned that it is ok to be p'd-off about having to do a job, that is unpleasant, and that it's ok to feel that way, but you still got to work through it if you want to get to the other side. And I'm glad that I now have this example for the next time. It will be nice, when in the future, when we're going through this lesson again with whatever the task, to be able to remind them of the good that came of getting this chore done."

I think you're mostly fed up with the repeating of the lessons. That's a common emotion after so many years of doing it.

How many times do you repeat the potty-learning steps? How many times did you repeat the shoe tying steps? How many times did yo repeat the phonics steps?

It's not weird that we repeat these steps too.

It's sometimes hard to remember that our beautiful intelligent children, who can be empathetic, wise, and carry on an amazingly intellectual conversation, can still not always put two and two together when it comes to "not playing while washing the dishes = less time washing the dishes, and more time playing the x-box".

And the whole "setting an example" thing? *snort* Remember how I mentioned that adult that we all know at least one of? Raise your hand, if like me, you've seen the 30 year old man playing video games while his 62year old mother cleans the house and washes his laundry.

Children need to be taught some things in life. And the proper tools come naturally to us.

Cheer up! My boys are so much different at nearly 11 & 12, then they were at 8 and 9. 8 & 9 was constant repetition, of.the.most.obvious.damn.things. 11 & 12? Willing participants that rarely need prodding to do what needs to be done for preservation and comfort.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by Cavy

Do I want to stop using bribes and rewards? No, actually the chocolate raisin trick works brilliant, I haven't felt the need to bother with that in ages. I just don't like the moments when it seems like all I have to motivate them with, or when it doesn't work and nothing else does either!.

Okay that helps. If you find the chocolate raisin approach to be "brilliant" and you aren't connecting that with your children's overall lack of motivation when not bribed, then I don't see what anyone could say that would really help.

[The4OfUs]

I really loved terrabella's 2nd post, thought it was a great.


If you're looking for the theory behind the motivation when kids are UPd, it's my understanding that because they're accepted unconditionally from day one, and shown by modeling what their parents values are, that it just becomes their normal and is just how they live. When they feel safe and valued and aren't worried about losing their parents' affection they do the "right" thing because it's the right thing and it's what they've lived. Basically, 'when you feel good, you act good'. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Having said that, the above has not necessarily been my personal experience. Despite not using consequences or threats or rewards/punishment with my kids when they were toddlers (up to about 3 years old), they sometimes lack internal motivation to do things (which as terrabella pointed out, even as an adult my "internal" motivation is often really an external one)...and that's totally OK, they're still young. Since I'm not a UP or CL type parent, I'm ok with "making" them do things they may not want to at any given moment, and with using logical consequences when they don't. I still don't bribe much or use rewards, but consequences have become a tool we use when the discussions of "why" aren't having an impact.

I had suggested above having a frank discussion with them about the fact that things are not working right now in their current configuration. I don't think it has to be a 'family meeting/talking stick' kind of thing, and if charts and lists aren't your thing, that's cool too. I just think at 8 and 9 they are definitely old enough to have an honest discussion with you about what the problems are, and old enough to help you come up with solutions.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Cavy

I'm still not sure if I have anything like an answer to my original question, about motivation.

When I was in college, majoring in psychology, I remember having more than one debate in class on whether or not truly altruistic behavior even exists. There is (almost) ALWAYS a reward for the behaviors we choose, either internal or external. All of us, children and adults, are motivated by these rewards.

In the end, we hope our dc will grow up to be motivated by internal, or self regulated rewards (clean because they appreciate a clean space, or clean and then treat themselves to something--just like we do!). But, they are kids. They aren't there yet, and you need their help NOW, regardless. Of course they need some motivating.

For us, that is where our "house habits" come in. I'm not going to dangle a cookie (clean your room for a treat), but these goodies over here that we do every night/weekend/etc always come after this stuff that needs to be done. So, cleaning comes before friends over. Just like setting the table comes before dinner. And taking the dog out comes before breakfast.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

When I was in college, majoring in psychology, I remember having more than one debate in class on whether or not truly altruistic behavior even exists. There is (almost) ALWAYS a reward for the behaviors we choose, either internal or external. All of us, children and adults, are motivated by these rewards.

In the end, we hope our dc will grow up to be motivated by internal, or self regulated rewards (clean because they appreciate a clean space, or clean and then treat themselves to something--just like we do!). But, they are kids. They aren't there yet, and you need their help NOW, regardless. Of course they need some motivating.

For us, that is where our "house habits" come in. I'm not going to dangle a cookie (clean your room for a treat), but these goodies over here that we do every night/weekend/etc always come after this stuff that needs to be done. So, cleaning comes before friends over. Just like setting the table comes before dinner. And taking the dog out comes before breakfast.

Love this too!

[mamazee]

Alfie Kohn uses the words "punishment" and "reward" as consequences imposed by an authority figure (like a parent) to cause a change in behavior. So internal things like, "I clean my room because it's easier to play in there when it's clean" aren't really part of what he's talking about. That's an internal motivation, and it doesn't get in between the parent and the child. When a parent offers a reward or bribe to get a child to do something, it causes at most a bit of separation and at least an opportunity for a power struggle, and power struggles aren't great for a relationship either. But the internal motivations are wonderful and are where I'm hoping my daughter heads. She has to some extent. She keeps her room clean now because it's easier to play and have friends play with her when it's clean, and she picks up in the other parts of the house because she's figured out that her little sister will mess with anything left out. That's a negative consequence, but it wasn't imposed by me so it isn't what Alfie Kohn is talking about.

This is kind of like thinking Alfie Kohn doesn't like parents to say anything nice to their kids.

[The4OfUs]

SO I guess the rub comes up until the kid figures that stuff out internally, or if they *don't* figure it out, or if they figure it out but don't care (and it bothers other people living with them).....then what? (I know the CL answer, just kind of putting it out there as a thing to think about)...

[mamazee]

Very young kids, who haven't figured out that there the world functions better with, say, a clean room, want nothing more than to please their parents. Or follow along and help their parents.

Also, you can often simply state your expectations without offering a reward or punishment. "This room needs to be cleaned up." Simply state information. Or, "The toys are still on the floor." Or, "The toys!" A good resource is How To Talk so Kids Will Listen, as far as that kind of thing goes. I don't offer a punishment if I see toys that need to be cleaned up. I say, "There are toys on the floor" or "I'm afraid I'm going to trip on your toys. Why are they still out?" And my daughter picks them up, or sometimes says, "I'm reading right now. I'll pick them up when I'm finished with this chapter."

There are sociopaths, of course, but most people do really care about the people around them. People can get used to always doing things because of a punishment or a reward, in which case they might wait for that. But, generally, people will learn to do what makes their lives run the most smoothly regardless of whether their parents are punishing or rewarding them for what they do. Simply because life runs the most smoothly that way.

One of the reasons why I didn't want to start with punishments and rewards is because it looks to me like you have to keep upping the ante. At some point, the punishment stops working, and you need a worse punishment. And, at some point, the reward stops working and you need a better reward.

[One_Girl]

I don't know how UP I am. I believe in paying attention to what my dd says and to finding solutions that work for both of us but that isn't always possible. I also believe that if is just as bad to raise a kid to believe that the world revolves around their every whim as it is to raise a kid to believe that their wants and needs don't matter at all. I think there needs to be balance in every relationship. I don't get the sense that UP is about balancing the wants and needs of all family members. It seems to be interpreted as being all about the kids and there seems to be a push against setting limits because some people feel that their parent's limits hurt them. I think parent's can set and enforce respectful limits.

I find that my dd is very motivated when she knows the reasons behind things, how her actions affect other people, and when she thinks about how she would feel if the situation was reversed. She also does really well knowing when things are a choice or aren't a choice. I expect her to live up to my expectations and she mostly does. When I am not paying careful attention to her feelings, wants, and needs though things tend to fall apart and she isn't as willing to care about what I want or need her to do.

I also use outside motivators sometimes though. I need an outside motivator sometimes, which is why I shop on sample day, so I am not opposed to motivating my dd to do something boring by giving her a bribe or something to look forward to. I don't believe in taking the bribe away for any reason. I think that outside motivators can turn something tedious into a delightful excursion. I also use forcasting to motivate dd. I will tell her the fun thing we have planned for after the tediously boring thing.

I haven't noticed the bribes causing a power struggle, perhaps it is all in the way you use them. I have noticed them cutting off the whining about having to go and making our excursions to shop and get out of the house more enjoyable for both of us. When dd has something to look forward to she doesn't get into a bad mood cycle and argue and moan, she is very happy and willing to go and that helps keep both of us interacting with each other positively. I think that blanket statements about bribes and parenting, such as the ones Alfie Kohn uses, are to one sided and they miss the good things that the other side has to offer.

[harrietsmama]

The thing of all of this that speaks to me is focusing on how to work with rather than do to the kids.

The library - no it's not a reward, we go at least once a week or more because we all read a lot. It's not a matter of if we go it's a matter of when.

If you have read UP and it didn't ring your chimes than I think we are just feeling differently so I may not be of much help. My son has some extra intensity emotionally and this book is really helping me interpret what he may be perceiving so I can better set us up for success - proactive rather than reactive.

Oh, and on parenting books - I don't enjoy them per se, but I have been so desperate at times to help my kids be happy that I have read at least half of 20 or so books. Some I set right down in disgust, others I nodded along with enough to read parts, I read most of How to talk, got some good ideas, but I think a lot of it is unrealistic. I really like the Gesell Institute series for an over view of common behaviors at different age stages, UP is the first one where I feel like it really fits. I have read some AK articles here & there and liked them. I also really like the Daily Groove thing by Scott Noele sp? just a little tidbit everyday that keeps me focused on finding our happy moments.
It's not that unhappy is bad, it's that for us we've had more than our share in previous times, and I am determined to find as much happy for my kids as I can.

I just like enjoying my kids and I am so much more now that I have 99% removed punishments, still evaluating the concept of rewards, but I don't overtly use them.

I'm really not even focusing on behavior so much, cause effect type stuff, more the feelings and intent of our words to each other, and laying out a welcome mat for the law of attraction - bring in the good stuff!

[Roar]

Onegirl - having pleasant things built into an activity doesn't make them a bribe or reward. If so we'd have to say going to the park on a sunny day is building in a reward because the park is more pleasant when it is sunny (just the grocery store is more fun when there are free snacks). AK isn't saying let's all have lives of drudgery and misery with no happy fun stuff to look forward to. Instead he's saying that happy and fun is part of life - not a manipulative tool of control to be adopted by parents as a means to control their kids' behavior.