need help with a 9 yo girl

[jrabbit]

I have 3 daughters, 9 (10 in Dec, homeschool), 5.5, and 8 months. It's been a rough year for all of us. I owned a business, which I worked with my kids until late in that pregnancy - I sold it to the manager last year and continued on for 6 months in an advisory role. We had to postpone a move that we'd been planning for 2 years due to an unexpected traumatic c-s for me. It's indefinitely postponed now, but that's another story. I'm in therapy now and on antidepressants that seem to be helping, but I am more angry at the same time. This week, we decided to increase the dose, so I don't know how that will affect me yet.

Anyway, here's the deal: DD1 has been really defiant and downright mean and ugly to me and the DD2. She has extreme emotional outbursts several times a week, and I think they are in response to me having an emotional outburst (prompted normally by our messy house). I realize that, but I am at a complete loss for how to change things. I've skimmed "How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen" and "Your Spirited Child" ... they just don't seem to be hitting on my particular situation.

I try to retreat and diffuse the situation, and I've made great improvements in not being so volatile with her, but I really cannot allow her to behave this way.

Example: she put curlers in her hair this afternoon. She decided to take them out at the exact moment that we were serving dinner. I agreed to help, but told her she needed to actually put them "away" before eating. Away entailed going upstairs. She grumbled at me "Why do you always make ME do stuff? You are sooooooooo picky." etc. Then she started to just leave the bag on the counter, and I insisted "away" - more grumbling - I suggested I could just get rid of them, two times, and she finally put them away. This scenario did not include the normal yelling, but there was a lot of back-talk. Mind you, I had helped her put curlers in the back of her hair AND helped her remove them: because she ASKED me for help. Why is it completely unreasonable for me to expect her to follow through and put something away?

The worst part of the situation is that her behavior is rubbing off on the DD2. DD1 is almost always mean to DD2, and up til recently, DD2 has been so sweet about it. But for the past few weeks, DD2 has been repeating the mean words to ME.

To make matters worse, they have lost a library book and 2 library cd's in our house, which has made me angry at them for a week. So, there is an underlying anger, but there is "always" going to be something. At this point, I think that we're going to have to pay for the book, but I won't even go to the library til we find the cd's (I'm embarrassed). So, we have fines, etc - that I'll make the kids pay, but that doesn't seem to phase them - they both just hoard money. They don't get an allowance because I don't see a point in it since they refuse to do chores or help out consistently around the house.

help! I don't spank. I don't do time-outs. As of today, they have lost all tv & computer privileges. The next step is to take their CD player away. I don't like that type of punishment, but it seems the only way to make an impression is to take away something. I would much rather reward good behavior, but that isn't making a lasting impression, apparently. My parents disciplined by fear, and that had nasty effects on me (major sense of inadequacy). I don't want to do the same thing. I'm not permissive, they do have boundaries, but it seems like the condition of the house is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Our house is not nearly as bad as it sounds. It's just chaotic and full - I'm trying to purge stuff, but it feels like 1 step forward 2 steps back most of the time. I just don't understand how to get them to WANT to help around the house! And at the same time, they accuse me of being no fun and boring: my response is "if you'll help me with the laundry, etc, then I'll have more time to do something with you!" They walk away.

I should add that nobody else sees this side of my child. She's polite, sweet, affectionate, everything to everyone else.

thanks
--janis

[terrabella]

Well, remember that they push the person they love the most.

Privileges - frankly, if they don't help, they shouldn't have them.

You have to contribute to the family, if you want to share in the pleasures.

If my toddler wants to watch a movie, I expect her to help me put away her toys and pick up her crayons.

If my ten year old wants to play the PS2 for a few hours, then I expect him wash some dishes and make his bed.

If my eleven year old wants time to chat on ravelry, then he needs to help me carry in firewood to keep us warm all night, and watch the baby for me while I run to pee.

This is life.

My husband and I do not get to use the computer until we've taken care of our chores.

Children should not be allowed to laze about all day, while their parents work their butts off.

Now I'm not talking about a ton of duties. I want my children to have very free and fun childhood. But they need to help out as members of the family.

If they want the cat, they need to feed the cat.

If they want their dad to buy them new books, then they need to help him when he's shoveling snow (older kids, obviously).

If my little one wants me to read a bazillion books to her, then she knows that I need help carrying the folded clothes to the bedrooms and the dishes to the sink.

If you can't help your family, then I do not see why you should partake in the pleasures that family provides for you.

In my house, this has created willing participants. Just today, one son did dishes and made breakfast, another swept the floor and cleaned up the car. They are both now playing video games for as long as they like.

[jrabbit]

thank you for your helpful words. I'll work on trying to encourage helpful behavior. Lately, it's just been so hard since if I ask for help, 99% of the time, I'm likely to get a snotty response. So, I revert to childish behaviors when they act that way.

Yesterday, when DD1 was pushing buttons, I vowed to myself that I would not get angry. I decided to confront her in a playful way. I did a "tree" yoga pose, complete with "uuummmmmmmmm". I dared her to do it with me. She refused. She got madder. I kept at it. DD2 finally came over to me and tried to do the tree pose, and she and I left the room to do something else. I had asked them both to come help me with a project, but DD1 refused. I ignored her and said "if you want to help, you can - you don't need to argue with me about it." In the end, she couldn't stand being left out and finally joined me, after voicing much protestation.

Sadly, these events happen a million times a day. By 3:00 in the afternoon, I'm completely worn out. Right now, they are both pushing my buttons again, and I'm yelling back. I hate this. To make matters worse, my DH has to travel 3 out of the next 4 weeks.

--janis

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by jrabbit

To make matters worse, they have lost a library book and 2 library cd's in our house, which has made me angry at them for ( week. So, there is an underlying anger, but there is "always" going to be something. --janis

This really caught my eye. It sounds like little, normal things are making you angry at your kids.

It's not their fault that you are in the place you are.

I wonder if it's a lot easier to blame them, rather than realizing that the kids didn't make the problems. (When I under a lot of job stress, I have to constantly remind myself that it's not the kids stressing me by wanting their hair brushed. It's my job making me feel like I don't have time to take the loving moment to enjoy hair brushing.)

Maybe stop worrying about "letting" them behave one way or another. I'll bet your depression has been just awful for them as well as you. They might be angry with you about your emotional unavailability during it.

Maybe you can take a day to really focus on your connection with them, whatever activities connect you as a family and start to grow together from there.

You might want to add family therapy into the mix, since a depressed mother can have profoundly painful effects on a child moving into adolescence.

[ssh]

At almost 10 your DD1 might be going through some preteen hormonal stuff. Being easily upset, annoyed or angered sure sound like preteen moodiness.

[Drummer's Wife]

sounds a lot like my 8 yo DD. She's a bit moody, and 'mouthy' at times. But then, so am I. Besides being a pre-teen, it could just be how she reacts b/c of how I react, kwim?

I also have to ask her several times to do things pretty often - I think she tends to be in her own world a bit, and picking up her shoes (even though it would take all of 2 seconds) is just not what she wants to be doing at that moment. Sometimes I let things go and ask/tell her later on, sometimes I get upset until she complies (and I tend to feel bad about it), and other times I go pick up the shoes and put them away myself b/c it's something that is obviously bothering me so much, not her.

I know it's hard when the house is not very clean/organized. Chaos thrives on that. Then I'm more likely to be upset with the kids because I can't find things or walk w/o stepping on a lego. With four kids, this is a constant battle for me. I need to de-clutter more, keep less, and have a better organization system in place.

The library books - I have to comment on this b/c my kids lost one for almost two weeks recently. I was definitely annoyed by it, but it wasn't something I held over their heads the entire time or worried about except when I thought about it for some reason, and that just meant we all looked for it for a while, then gave up and life went on. Finally DH found it under one of the couches - maybe that's where yours are? I'm sure you looked, but I swore I had until he pulled part of the sectional way out and there it was.

I'm sorry you are so stressed lately I do think kids pick up on that, and tension mounts on tension, yk? I find if I am calmer, and let more things go, the kids do, too.

oh, and my DD is a "perfect angel" if you ask anyone else (teacher, grandparents, friends families) man, if they only knew. She is a sweet girl, but she definitely has her moments.

[harrietsmama]

first, lots of to you mama

Ok, I have severe mental illness so I totally get how hard it can be to mom while you feel like crap, add a major surgery and new baby, wow.

These are hard on *all* of you

I agree some family counseling can help heal you together

I agree that some of it may be hormonal, my dd is also 10 in December so I'm getting I'm sad and confused and I don't know why and tears around every corner. A little easier than the mouthy stuff, but I'm getting that from 7 yo ds so I get you there, fun fun.

I really think rather than taking away etc., when you need help, instead of arguing for ten minutes when she refuses, spend 5 minutes hugging her or doing something to connect with her. It may sound counter intuitive, but it made a difference for us.

I'm reading Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting right now and WOW!!! is it helping me to understand my kids so I can communicate so much more effectively with them! my house is still a mess, my kids still crank at each other and me, but it is ever so slowly lessening.

Lastly, on the library example. Don't let suffering over stuff ruin the rest of your day/week, whatever. focus on ONE thing at a time. If you are brushing your teeth, just brush your teeth. If you are doing the dishes do the dishes, if you are enjoying your daughter, enjoy her. If you are worrying just worry. Set yourself a timer and worry for ten minutes, then put it aside. this is a DBT thing (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) it was developed for borderline personality folks, but it was offered to everyone at my mental health place and holy moly I learned so many great skills but this is a big one. Why waste so much time suffering? One.thing.at.a.time. It takes a lot of practice, but it's so worth it.

[Shannie77]

Originally Posted by ssh

At almost 10 your DD1 might be going through some preteen hormonal stuff. Being easily upset, annoyed or angered sure sound like preteen moodiness.

This came to my mind too. My DD is only 2.5 but my mom said a couple years before we all (she has 4 daughters) hit puberty we would suddenly get really hard to deal with. One sister in particular basically woke up a different person one day and was very tricky to deal with.

Also from teaching ballet to children this age, I have noticed that around 10-12 they do start getting quite moody.

You have some great suggestions from the other posters. I really like the idea of spending a few days to just really connect. Perhaps lay off the "rules" while you are connecting. If it works and the family feels more connected your DD might be more willing to be agreeable.

[JL83]

Example: she put curlers in her hair this afternoon. She decided to take them out at the exact moment that we were serving dinner. I agreed to help, but told her she needed to actually put them "away" before eating. Away entailed going upstairs. She grumbled at me "Why do you always make ME do stuff? You are sooooooooo picky." etc. Then she started to just leave the bag on the counter, and I insisted "away" - more grumbling - I suggested I could just get rid of them, two times, and she finally put them away. This scenario did not include the normal yelling, but there was a lot of back-talk. Mind you, I had helped her put curlers in the back of her hair AND helped her remove them: because she ASKED me for help. Why is it completely unreasonable for me to expect her to follow through and put something away?

Just going from this example. It sounds like she wants more autonomy.

At her age she's starting to make the transition from child to adult. It's just starting, but she can see that you get to chose when/where/how/why you do things. So it's likely bothering her that you also chose when/where/how/why she does things.

Do you think it would have gone differently if you'd said something like "I don't want them left on the counter and it seems like it would be easiest to remember to do it now. Do you want to do it now or later? If you chose to do it later, then I will remind you if they are still there this evening and expect you to take them upstairs without complaint."

I remember this age keenly with my parents. Everything seemed so unfair because they were dictating how I was supposed to do things and, from what I could see, other people weren't dictating to them. As an adult, I obviously now know that there were plenty of external factors dictating what they did. But those weren't obvious at that age.

This seems to be an age where lots of kids start to crave taking (or trying to take) responsibility for themselves.

[jrabbit]

Thank you everyone for your input. Gee, family therapy sounds like a grand but way out of reach idea ... so I have to do without that one.

This week is even more stressful because DH is out of town.

I've tried a few strategies to avoid yelling, but we are all so programmed to yell, that it's not working out very well yet:

- I hugged her while asking her to do something I knew she didn't want to do
- in the car today, I turned on classical music and just waited for her to calm down and buckle up (long story, but after a million warnings, they pushed me over the edge, and I cancelled a lunch date with them, but they both refused to buckle up to go home ... I waited 20 mins, calmly, listening to the radio ... I made them a nice lunch at home, and we went to dinner instead)

I've tried giving her more autonomy on when/how to do things, but tbh, we don't have a lot of flexibility because we are trying to get the house ready to sell. stuff has to be done, period. they do want the same thing I want (sell/move), but they don't understand that stuff has to be done NOW, even though we aren't selling for several months. the timeframe doesn't make sense to them.

thanks,
--janis