Considering Waldorf - Page 2

[karne]

I would think vary carefully about this decision. It is a nightmare to transfer out of a waldorf school into regular education if things don't work out.

[lach]

You sound very much like me, and in the end I just couldn't get over how anti-science Waldorf seems to me. I'm all for fairies and elves at playtime, but the idea of actually refusing to teach my children facts because they're not ready to understand anything about science until their baby teeth come out causes kind of a visceral reaction in me. I still follow this community closely because I love so many of the concepts and ideas, and do implement them into my home life. But I just can't reconcile them with my education belief system.

We chose a fairly touchy-feely Montessori program which does have some Waldorf influences that I'm probably one of the few parents who notice, just because I did so much research into Waldorf before deciding against it! The academics in a Montessori school move at the child's own pace. Is a Montessori school an option for you?

[lach]

Oh, and I always LOVE meeting other parents who are hard core the branded character business! Go you!

[zinemama]

Originally Posted by karne

I would think vary carefully about this decision. It is a nightmare to transfer out of a waldorf school into regular education if things don't work out.

I transferred into public school in tenth grade after spending the previous 8 years at a WS. It wasn't difficult.

The main difference was that in public school my math teacher saw that I was floundering and directed me to the school's tutoring center. In Waldorf school my teacher made it clear to me that my difficulty with math was a personal failing. There was never the slightest attempt to get additional help for me.

(I want to make it clear that I don't see my problems with math as the result of a Waldorf education. It has always been a terrifically difficult subject for me, no matter the educational setting.)

[orangewallflower]

I think it's 1st through 4th grade when it's most difficicult to transfer, isn't it?

[Marylizah]

I worked through the same issues recently and ended up deciding against Waldorf for some of the same reasons.

The other thing I just didn't want to deal with is the judgment and competition between Waldorf parents as to who is or isn't Waldorf enough.

I don't buy character books or clothing either, but learning that my son couldn't even wear t-shirts with pictures or words on them (too distracting) was just too stressful.

Also, while DS doesn't watch TV, he does get to watch DVDs. We are living in a foreign country and have two home languages to maintain: reading books and watching DVDs in those languages are tools that help him develop these languages. I didn't want to have to justify myself to anyone about that, though.

So in the end, we put him in a nearby public program; they go outside every day, plus have gymnastics inside, he paints, plays with playdoh and puzzles, and they read stories and sing songs. Lots of toys to play with (and books to look at!). He's very happy.

I hope you find a program that works well for your DD.

PS: I find it totally shocking that, as a PP posted, some schools do HOME VISITS to see if you are Waldorf enough. That's the mentality that scared me away.

[karne]

Originally Posted by orangewallflower

I think it's 1st through 4th grade when it's most difficicult to transfer, isn't it?

Yes, elementary grades tend to be tough. We live in an area where it's pretty common to see waldorf ed. kids come into other public/private school systems for a variety of reasons: financial, parent dissatisfaction, etc. Academics are a pretty common issue, but thinking for oneself is a larger issue. I'm sure someone will show up to say it's never an isssue, etc., but this is a pretty well known issue in our area, and not really debatable. Lots of times kids are held back a grade upon transferring, but I think the norm now is to put in lots of educational support.

[vaptek]

Originally Posted by karne

I would think vary carefully about this decision. It is a nightmare to transfer out of a waldorf school into regular education if things don't work out.

Wow. Are we sure that this isn't an anti-Waldorf education board?

I'm with the OP, in my concern about teaching fantasy as truth. I'm very much scientifically minded, in that both my undergrad & grad degrees are in scientific fields. (Not using it at all now, of course, as a business systems analyst.) I'm a born skeptic and a born researcher. So far the biggest recurring theme I've learned in my research about Waldorf: it depends upon the school.

I'm interested in my 19 month old attending Waldorf one day, so I'm researching it now. They have a really sweet program called the Morning Garden, a weekly class with toddlers where a parent is required to attend. It's been great! I've gotten to see their patterns, see some of the methodology in action, and best of all, ask a ton of questions about Waldorf.

Some of the crazy stories I've read here don't sound like they are true for my local school. I've read from people posting here that kids shouldn't play with balls. (Can't remember why.) The playground at my school has a tether ball and basket ball courts. I've read from people posting here that they were told kids shouldn't listen to recorded music. I asked our teacher about it and she said that we all own recorded music, although we prefer for children to be exposed to and learn to play live music. I've read here about no books in the classroom. And that one is true for our kindergarten; no books there. But they did have them in the 2nd grade class that I toured. I've read about home visits. And no, no home visits from my school. Finally, I've read about no group sports. And in a class I took at my school, half of the parents there had their kids in soccer.

Anyway, where all this is leading to is back to my previous point. It all depends upon the school. What I've done is gone to the morning garden program, plus signed up for the parent enrichment classes offered by the school. I'm going to reserve judgment on the school until I have had a chance to really explore it.

[karne]

Originally Posted by vaptek

Wow. Are we sure that this isn't an anti-Waldorf education board?

Nope, it's a serious BTDT concern that even the waldorf schools sometimes address. Like I said, some have it easier, some not, but like most things in waldorf, it's better to know in advance what the issues are. It's totally a choice to not investigate some of the issues surrounding transfer, but again, I'm not sure why that would be threatening?

[vaptek]

Originally Posted by karne

It's totally a choice to not investigate some of the issues surrounding transfer, but again, I'm not sure why that would be threatening?

Sorry, karne, you're absolutely right that people should investigate transfer issues. And I didn't mean to pick on you (although I did jump on your comment and I apologize for that.) I was just surprised at how negative towards Waldorf many of the comments in this thread have been and latched on to yours.

When I asked a similar question about 6 months ago, I do feel like I received much more positive answers. This thread I think might have discouraged me from even researching the school and I may have just moved on to something else. What I read a few months ago encouraged me to at least insert myself in the local school and learn as much as I can about their approach and methodology. This is what I'm attempting to do now and so far the school has been a delight.

[orangewallflower]

Vaptek, I've been reading these boards for a couple of years, I think, now. I have found that when parents come on with particular concerns the threads tend to follow a pattern, that by and large *really* help parents make this crucial decision. Waldorf was a lot of what I wanted for my kids, but in the end I made the right decision (for my own kids) to not proceed into the grades.

When parents come on who are deeply religious and want to make sure that they are not entering a spiritual system different from their own, they are often steered away from Waldorf. When an atheist comes on, that to me isn't a nonstarter, but I do think that atheists need to really go in knowing that anthroposophy is the core of Waldorf education. They should have pretty good idea of what anthroposophy is (esoteric Christianity) and how Waldorf education is a manifestation of it. Before the internet made such communication easy (I think it was Eugene Schwartz who said that parking lot chatter became global with the internet) many parents believed what they were told in promotional materials and by admssions officers- which rarely provide adequate information on anthroposophy. I know that many Waldorf parents just don't care that much about anthroposophy, but I believe that most self-described atheists will. Again, that's not to say Waldorf won't work out for them, but they should gather as much information as possible.

Of course, every school is different. The typical reaction to visiting a school is overwhemingly positive because Waldorf schools are so beautiful. If the OP left this thread not even wanting to visit, I would feel that we did her a disservice. If no one came on with positive comments about Waldorf I think that would also be a shame. But providing her with some balance, to know that for her situation there are some drawbacks to that beauty for atheist parents is absolutely crucial for making a good decision.

[kafka]

Just wanted to reiterate that transfer in the early grades is difficult because the schedules for Waldorf and the public school system are not in synch at this point. But by high school they have come into synch and transfer is fairly straightforward. As a university science professor I can attest that the Waldorf students I've met have more than adequate preparation in science, with a larger emphasis on hands-on experiments in the Waldorf schools.

In terms doing art by rote, again I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding. Waldorf takes art instruction seriously, and as such they believe in techniques that must be mastered via teaching, just like in handwerk there are particular skills (knitting, woodworking, felting, etc.) that require mastery via teaching. I personally believe that a lot of elementary school education in the public schools emphasizes creativity over skills because they undervalue the importance of skills, which are a necessary (if certainly not sufficient) condition for creativity. One can't be a creative fashion designer unless one first learns techniques of sewing, and one can't be a creative musician unless one first learns music theory.

[Not Sure]

Here's a question: How well would Waldorf education be suited to a child from a Pagan household? Well, I'm Pagan and a scientist and my hubby is atheist but spiritual. We'd like an educational environment for our dd that allows her to go at her own pace. Would Montessori perhaps be a better option? (dd is 10 weeks old, researching very early (!!), very tired, and typing one-handed - thanks for your patience!)

[zinemama]

Waldorf schools don't allow children to go at their own pace in my experience. Perhaps things have changed. Again (not to sound like a broken record!) it's all about the individual school.

[fustian]

Oh, nobody's scared me off visiting the local school. I'm set to go down next week

My daughter would be entering Kindergarten during the next school year. (They start kindergarten at age three at the local school). If we decide to go with Waldorf this would give us plenty of time before school transfer becomes an issue. Traditional schools around here start Kindergarten at age four, and there are two years of kindergarten.

It's interesting to me that people are suggesting Montessori. I attended a Montessori school when I was very young and apparently I loved it. There are several Montessori schools within about a half an hour to forty five minute drive from us - further than I would like, but certainly not impossible. I did go and visit one of the Montessori programs, but was turned off by their focus on early academic achievement. The director of the school was pushing the fact that the kids were learning academics early, and thus had some sort of academic advantage over their non-Montessori peers. However, this may have been a result of a pitch made to a perceived audience, and not as indicative as to what the school is like as I assumed.

I had thought that Waldorf would allow children to go at their own pace. It seems that I have misunderstood quite a few things bout Waldorf! I must say that the school websites and brochures are not very informative I got a very different picture of Waldorf from reading the schools handbook and materials than I am receiving here. Not that the picture painted here is a bad one, it's just different that what I had thought.

Perhaps I should go and visit with a different Montessori program in our area as well as the Waldorf school

[accountclosed3]

I'm seeing a problematic use of the word "truth" around here. it is being confused with "facts." While all facts are true, not all truths are facts. that is, many truths are subjective or emotive in aspect, and therefore not "factual" and yet still no less true to an individual or group.

thus, it is important to note that children are both taught facts and truths in a waldorf education. children are taught scientific facts in waldorf such as how the seasons change (and why) and also how gardens grow, and on and on. these are taught along with the fairy tales and other elements of seasonal celebration/learning.

the fairy tales and the like are taught in the "truths but not facts" methodology similar (ime) to jungian archetypes. that is, in early stages, they are tauht in the form of "realities" or "play realities" and then later developed into "understanding certain archetypes." that is often how santa--in mainstream culture--moves from being 'that real guy who brings presents' to being 'the spirit of generosity' for most people.

i have noticed that waldorf schools vary widely in how much "one's own pace" children can go. if you are too slow or too fast, then it's not a good fit. but i've noticed this at nearly every school i've ever been in. many are just not equipped for special needs on either end of the spectrum, and are there for the general needs of the middle ground.

montessori is more play-based learning, more about being at one's own pace, but it seems nearly to be anti-imaginary play. that's just from what i've read and seen around here, but i also believe that schools vary.

as far as kindy goes, i wouldn't be worried about waldorf kindy. it's very straight forward--celebrate the seasons, spend time cooking and gardening, art is entirely free, and lots of free play time. story telling is fun and enjoyable. that's it. it's really relaxed at that age. it gets more "strict" at the grades.

so, i don't think it would be an issue to, say, put her in waldorf kindy for now, and then when she enters first grade, transition her to public or montessori school depending upon which works.

[orangewallflower]

In terms of self-pacing, I don't believe there is much varation among Waldorf schools grades 1-12. The classes (which are composed of like-age children, although I have heard of a case or two of a child skipping a grade) study different topics in blocks. This means that they will spend two or three weeks on a particular block and then move on. There is a certain amount of work to do and all students are expected to do it. I know students who had to spend recess inside catching up nearly every day. If someone can speak to the contrary, please join in, but the principle of the whole class studying the same thing at the same time is an important one in the Waldorf grades. I would be very surprised to know of a school that does it differently in the grades.

Fustian, if she enrolls in kindy that young, you have plenty of time to get to know the school and the curriculum. It's such a good way to give it a try. I think Waldorf is at its best in kindy.

[raksmama]

Originally Posted by karne

I would think vary carefully about this decision. It is a nightmare to transfer out of a waldorf school into regular education if things don't work out.

I second that! When Ds transferred in 3rd grade it was horrific. He was so far behind. The teachers all thought something was wrong with him. None of the other children wanted to be friends with him. It really hurt his self-esteem.
He is now in grade 6 and it and he has caught up and gotten more confidence but the first year was very tough, second year still hard....
And I feel so bad for sending him to a Waldorf school in the first place.

[kafka]

This post really saddens me. In fact, the whole thread is getting a little depressing. I am by no means a "blind follower" of any ideology, but Waldorf has very valuable things to offer, and a whole worldview that is very hard to find within mainstream educational settings. But you have to understand globally what they are trying to accomplish and the way the whole educational system is set up.
Third grade is absolutely the worst time to transfer, because that exactly the time when the differences between the two educational systems are most divergent, and Waldorf is "behind" (although I'd say they are laying the foundations that will support their students better in the long run). And, yes, that's exactly when my sister transferred and it was awful for her. In retrospect, my mother wishes my sister had stayed *longer* in Waldorf rather than pulling her out *earlier*. By 7th-8th grades, Waldorf students are not only catching up, but by high school they're actually ahead of most public school students. But by "ahead" I don't mean in terms of test scores, I mean in terms of being able to develop themselves intellectually as independent analytical thinkers.

Originally Posted by jalilah

I second that! When Ds transferred in 3rd grade it was horrific. He was so far behind. The teachers all thought something was wrong with him. None of the other children wanted to be friends with him. It really hurt his self-esteem.
He is now in grade 6 and it and he has caught up and gotten more confidence but the first year was very tough, second year still hard....
And I feel so bad for sending him to a Waldorf school in the first place.

[orangewallflower]

Kafka,
Perhaps I'm reading the pps wrong, but I'm not seeing these warnings about the difficulty of transfer as, in themselves, an indictment of Waldorf education. I think that some of us view a rationalist worldview in a Waldorf context as potentially problematic for this particular parent, and as such she should both learn all she can about Waldorf AND understand how committing the grades, especially the early grades, are. (This is also a very important reason to make sure to meet the incoming first grade teacher before making a final decision.)

When parents come on talking about loving the spiritual side of Waldorf you aren't going to see people jump on to the thread saying "Hey, do you know how hard it is to transfer in third grade?"

You mention how rare the Waldorf worldview is in mainstream education. Absolutely. But imagine those of us who just don't believe that there is a spiritual realm or world of any kind. (I believe that human beings are innately spiritual, but this resides in the human mind and dies with it.) That means that the more we learn about Steiner, the less enchanted we become. The less his view of childhood development makes sense. So for some parents, the "whys" of Waldorf make everything fall into place. For others they make Waldorf less embrace-able so the "what's" become very, very important.

If you look at some of the long old threads where parents of enrolled children came on with concerns about what they were seeing and then learned that there is an anthroposophical basis for what they were seeing, (as with teachers not speaking directly with children about their behavior), they often would say "we never would have enrolled if we had understood that the schools are so anthroposophical." Invariably after it became apparent that the parent and child were indeed in a bad situation, a Waldorf-comfortable parent would come on and say "Well, you should have done more research."

I totally understand how great Waldorf is for many families. It is also important to understand that it is a bad fit for others. It's better for the parents who might have enrolled their kids mistakenly, it's better for those kids, and it's better for the Waldorf communities as well. Discontent is poison to a small school. It is not an indictment of Waldorf to help parents figure this out and to be very honest with them. It is a crucial step in the creation of a heathy Waldorf school.