H1N1/Swine Flu Vax - October '09 - Page 4

[sunshadow]

Subbing.

My daughter and I had the flu with really odd set of symptoms in April. Literally a week before all the news broke about it. I really wish there was a way of knowing if it was Swine or not since I am pregnant now. I suspect it was too early.

Anyway, good info here. Just wanting to keep up.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by carmel23

no but there is research demonstrating that the mother's antibodies can be found in cord blood (so there is some evidence of what part of the mother's immune system effects baby before birth):

http://www.jci.org/articles/view/29466?search[article_text]=&search[authors_text]=Miller%2C+rachel

In this study they could measure the flu antibodies in the cord blood of the infants post birth.

I am not sure why this study is relevant as it is looking at the anitbodies present in cord blood, and it is not looking at whether these antibodies are protective. The study is essentially using vaccination as a 'safe' way to study adaptive immunity of the fetus. It does not support the theory that present antibodies equal a superior immune response in newborns or infants.

Antibodies are not the only factor when it comes to immunity. People are assuming that antibodies are the important factor when it comes to predicting immunity. Which they are not.

I am not aware of a study that looks at vaccinated pregnant women passing on antibodies through cord blood and this being found to significantly reduce the incidence of Influenza in the newborn. I am guessing here, but I would think breastfeeding a newborn with colostrum and exclusively breastfeeding for the first months of life would offer a far superior protection than a vaccine during pregnancy. Humoral Immunity is not the be all and end all when it comes to predicting who succumbs to disease and who does not. Innate Immunity has a very important role to play. Breastmilk plays that role by essentially providing an 'innate immune system' to the newborn and exclusively breastfed child.

It is interesting to read that only 43.8% (39 of 89) of the vaccinated pregnant women developed antibodies to the vaccine. This makes me think that the number of pregnant women who actually respond to the flu vaccine is rather small. This study is not trying to establish the efficacy of the flu vaccine in pregnant women, but it is interesting to read that 56.2% did not respond adequately.. And only 38.6% of the cord blood samples had antibodies (27 of 70).

ETA: the pregnant women in the study had to be healthy, and not have (a) history of cardiovascular, neurological, and other systemic disorders; (b) major complications during pregnancy or history of major complications during previous pregnancy; (c) history of recent HIV, HBV, and other systemic infection. So, the statistics represent a healthy pregnant population, not the general pregnant population. It would be interesting to know what inclusion of unhealthy pregnant women would do to the statistics.

[Juvysen]

Originally Posted by ema-adama

It is interesting to read that only 43.8% (39 of 89) of the vaccinated pregnant women developed antibodies to the vaccine. This makes me think that the number of pregnant women who actually respond to the flu vaccine is rather small. This study is not trying to establish the efficacy of the flu vaccine in pregnant women, but it is interesting to read that 56.2% did not respond adequately.. And only 38.6% of the cord blood samples had antibodies (27 of 70).

Wow. nearly 44%? I mean... I wonder if that's a "normal" outcome for the flu vaccine in pregnant women, and if so *THAT* should be part of the process of informed consent!

[hippy mum]

The h1n1 is more respiratory right-I can't find the link where I thought it said it was settling there, and more cases were turning to pnemonia?
Also, if it is effecting the lungs more, why in the world would they use flumist? It's just going right to the place where it's causing the most problems, that doesn't make any sense.
I wonder how many cases dr's will brush off as h1n1, if the patient has the respiratory symptoms, but it could be a different bronchial infection?

[buttercupmama]

I just wanted to share with the community that my family has the swine flu.

My husband got it on Friday from his supervisor. Just a little background info. He eats the SAD and will take anything a doctor prescribes. Not nearly that good about taking vitamins and minerals. He was also hit by a car on Saturday. Nothing broken, but he was very sore in certain spots... He has been irritable with the whole thing, and today I keep trying to remind him to take more vitamin C often. The cough is irritating him the most and the diarrhea is coming and going.

So, our 16 month old and I got the flu on Saturday. We weren't trying to avoid it, honestly, and I was glad for the exposure. We are low-fat vegans, eating fresh fruits most of the time. I have been having megadoses of vitamin C and going about life as usual. My nose was barely runny at first, and it soon dried up. I had a stubborn sore throat. Nothing more than a little annoyance. My girl had a fever, and a runny nose. I had hoped nursing would have provided her enough of the vitamin C I was taking, but I didn't feel that it was because her fever was slowly rising. So by Saturday night, I started giving her her own doses of vitamin C. Her runny nose dried up within a few hours and her fever lowered to a more reasonable level. It finally broke this morning at 3AM, but the whole time she never acted like she was ill at all. It seemed like I was always struggling to make her rest. I really didn't feel tired myself. Today, we're both symptom free, but we're going to continue taking as much vitamin C as we can handle.

I just thought it would be interesting for others to read. So umm, if anyone in or near Tacoma, WA wants it...PM me?

[Juvysen]

Did you get tested? I had something very similar to that last week. Some diarrhea, nausea, runny nose, very sore throat (still lingering, actually). Garlic tea helped a lot, imo. I didn't get tested. My kids both had a fever with it. I did call my midwife and she said it sounds like what doctors are diagnosing as swine flu, but we can't be sure. she asked if I'd want tamiflu (being that I'm pregnant) I said no. Told her the measures I was taking (garlic tea, vitamin c, CLO), and she pretty much said her kids had the same thing (were home from school that day) and that's what she's doing too. *shrug* I wish I knew, now, whether we had it or not. Dh never got more than a slight sore throat. For the rest of us it was pretty mild.

[ScootchsMom]

Does H1N1 or any flu for that matter, always have a fever? DD and DS have both been sick, now they just caught ANOTHER "thing" on top of the one they were just getting over. I found out through DD that her little friends at school were all vaccinated for the flu, one with the flumist at some point in the past two weeks, but I'm guessing it was for the standard seasonal flu, correct?

DD's symptoms have been congestion, runny nose, complaining her limbs hurt, a tummy ache the other night and low appetite. The baby is congested and has itchy watery eyes and is just not feeling well - very cranky.

[A&A]

Seasonal Flu Shot May Increase Risk of H1N1

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/...-seasonal.html

[frugalmama]

Is anyone else planning on just staying home once they start the h1n1 flumist?

I have a comprised immune system and plan on just staying home {along with everyone else} for a couple of weeks after they stop giving the mist versions.

Luckily our area that was supposed to start giving the mist tomorrow didn't get any from the state, so it will be at least another week.

[buttercupmama]

Originally Posted by Juvysen

Did you get tested?

Yes, and it's definitely the swine flu.

I think this is the mildest of any illness that I've ever experienced.

[carmel23]

Originally Posted by ema-adama

I am not sure why this study is relevant as it is looking at the anitbodies present in cord blood, and it is not looking at whether these antibodies are protective. The study is essentially using vaccination as a 'safe' way to study adaptive immunity of the fetus. It does not support the theory that present antibodies equal a superior immune response in newborns or infants.

Antibodies are not the only factor when it comes to immunity. People are assuming that antibodies are the important factor when it comes to predicting immunity. Which they are not.

I am not aware of a study that looks at vaccinated pregnant women passing on antibodies through cord blood and this being found to significantly reduce the incidence of Influenza in the newborn. I am guessing here, but I would think breastfeeding a newborn with colostrum and exclusively breastfeeding for the first months of life would offer a far superior protection than a vaccine during pregnancy. Humoral Immunity is not the be all and end all when it comes to predicting who succumbs to disease and who does not. Innate Immunity has a very important role to play. Breastmilk plays that role by essentially providing an 'innate immune system' to the newborn and exclusively breastfed child.

It is interesting to read that only 43.8% (39 of 89) of the vaccinated pregnant women developed antibodies to the vaccine. This makes me think that the number of pregnant women who actually respond to the flu vaccine is rather small. This study is not trying to establish the efficacy of the flu vaccine in pregnant women, but it is interesting to read that 56.2% did not respond adequately.. And only 38.6% of the cord blood samples had antibodies (27 of 70).

ETA: the pregnant women in the study had to be healthy, and not have (a) history of cardiovascular, neurological, and other systemic disorders; (b) major complications during pregnancy or history of major complications during previous pregnancy; (c) history of recent HIV, HBV, and other systemic infection. So, the statistics represent a healthy pregnant population, not the general pregnant population. It would be interesting to know what inclusion of unhealthy pregnant women would do to the statistics.

because you asked why Dr. Sears made a certain assertion, and then stated there was no research on maternal transmitted immunity.

Wait a minute, first you say that the antibodies present in the cord blood are not important for immunity, and then state that because only 40 percent of the infants had *detectable* antibodies in the cord blood that the vaccine isn't effective? So which is it?

If the presence of antibodies in the cord blood doesn't mean that there is any immune protection passed to the infant, then how would it mean that the flu vaccine was effective/ ineffective in the mother?

[Karamom]

Looks like the vaccination began today.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=arTA4idq_z6c
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...chicago-v.html

[Unreal]

That sounds an awful lot like what swept through our whole office over the past 2 weeks, and then the boys at home got it too.




I need a gasp smiley (a reverse sigh one?)

Thank you for posting that you were confirmed

And I'm glad you are all feeling better

[happyhearts]

Unless you have the nasal swab done it is impossible to say if it was H1N1 or not. If the test is positive for flu, then they are assuming that it is Swine. My parents, grandparents, sister's kids, and siblings all recently had what sounded like it could have been a mild case of swine flu but ended up being just a very bad cold. (hoarse, sore throat, sinus congestion, cough, body aches, etc.) Thankfully we did not catch it as I avoided them all for a couple of weeks when I heard someone was sick. We are in NY where it is not "widespread" yet, although I'm sure it will be soon.

About the FluMist, no I will not be staying in. The risk of someone being infected from someone who had the nasal spray is very, very low.

[maxwill129]

We just had a little 6 year old die in MN from complications from H1N1. It said he had no underlying conditions, and that the muscles around his heart were inflammed. It's so sad and scary, but even though this happened the state's epidemiologist said that is RARE and most cases of H1N1 are mild.

[hippy mum]

They started early then at schools or when they said? Haven't heard anything local here yet.

Happy-my boys got the flu after a playdate with 2 girls who had the flumist that morning. I mean, I guess they could have picked up the germ elsewhere, but it seems a bit odd they got sick within 24hrs of playing w/ them. No matter what they say the transmission rate it-read the side effects, um sounds like the flu to me.

[dessismama]

Those of you who still think swine flu is just a media hype, make your way over to flutrackers.com and check out some of the latest posts... then you will see what this virus is capable of doing...

Also, check out this blog:
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/

It presents a very balanced view, imo.

[ema-adama]

Originally Posted by carmel23

because you asked why Dr. Sears made a certain assertion, and then stated there was no research on maternal transmitted immunity.

Wait a minute, first you say that the antibodies present in the cord blood are not important for immunity, and then state that because only 40 percent of the infants had *detectable* antibodies in the cord blood that the vaccine isn't effective? So which is it?

If the presence of antibodies in the cord blood doesn't mean that there is any immune protection passed to the infant, then how would it mean that the flu vaccine was effective/ ineffective in the mother?

I think there has been a misunderstanding. I did not say the antibodies are unimportant. I said they are not the *only* measure for immunity. And I said that this study is looking for presence of antibodies, and not measuring how effective this protection is. It is working on assumptions that may or may not be accurate.There are other factors that impact on the ability of a person to fight off disease other than antibody levels. Like the innate immune system.

I quoted the stats as the people doing the research are measuring antibodies to get an idea of immunity, assuming antibodies mean immunity. If their assumption is correct , then by their own measure the vaccine is not very effective.

The numbers in the article are for the immune response of the mother and for the antibodies in the cord blood. Different numbers. The percentage of women in this study that responded with a 2 fold increase in antibodies was 43.8%.

Among the 89 mothers for whom both prevaccination and postvaccination specimens were available, 43.8% (39 of 89) produced greater than 2-fold increases in IgM antibodies against Fluzone

There was the presence of antibodies in some of the cord blood, but not a very reassuring percentage.

anti-Fluzone and anti-MP IgM antibodies were measured among 38.6% (27 of 70) and 40% (28 of 70), respectively, of the cord blood specimens following vaccination of the mothers.

So my question stll stands about how Dr Sears can claim that the vaccine does not offer protection to the newborn or the breastfeeding infant. Perhaps this is his evidence that the vaccine doesn't really work? (Again, I can't load his website, so I am going on what I read in post 37)

[newmum35]

Found the page, if you click on the link "74 comments" (it may change as more people post) under his writeup "Four Swine Flu Vaccines Approved by FDA" dated Friday, September 18, 2009 on this page,

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccine...ine%20News.asp

it will take you here:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...0&isPopup=true

On that page one of the commenters ("April") asks about the breastfeeding question on Sept 22, 2009:

"if I get the flu shot while nursing my 9 month old, would some immunity be passed on to him (thus not requiring that he gets a shot)?"

his answer:

Dr. Bob said...

April - no - immunity does not pass that we know of. However, you getting the shot would help prevent YOU from catching it, thus helping to protect the baby. September 23, 2009 1:31 PM

[ema-adama]

I have a serious problem. Askdrsears just won't load for me.

But the blogger comments do. The information seems to be contradictory. Thanks for posting that.