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October 2009 Charting to Avoid Thread - Page 8

post #141 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
Isn't starting without a condom pretty much withdrawal + condom put together? So I guess it would have the higher failure rate of the two. I don't know...

Yeah that's basically what I was saying. One time, withdrawal + condom put together. Dunno what the failure rate for that would be. Thanks for everyone's input, it was very helpful
post #142 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
Isn't starting without a condom pretty much withdrawal + condom put together? So I guess it would have the higher failure rate of the two. I don't know...
I guess it would depend on when you put the condom on. If you put the condom on halfway through but it's still a while before the guy ejaculates, I'd say that's condom use. I don't really know what constitutes user failure with condoms. Is it putting the thing on wrong or having it slip off? Oh, I think I read that condoms can leak if the guy lingers long enough to start to lose his erection so that the condom becomes loose. Since there's no live sperm in pre-ejaculate, it wouldn't matter if you waited until later to get the condom on as long as you got it on before full ejaculation, right?

If you didn't put the condom on until right before the guy ejaculated, I guess you could consider that withdrawal. But, then, what would be the point of using the condom? I'd think it would all be over by the time you got the thing on.

Did I mention that on top of the pimples I started having cramps 3-4 days ago? I haven't even Oed yet! No wonder we had such trouble getting pg before I started charting. I'd refuse to dtd once I started getting cramps because it hurt so much afterward. Well, if I was getting cramps a few days before O that continued, we probably never dtd at the right time.
post #143 of 379
Thread Starter 
MW ugh that really stinks about the cramps.

Ok I think I understand what you're saying about condoms and withdrawal now. I suppose a good portion of the "user error" failure rate with withdrawal is..um..not actually withdrawing. So yeah, if you have time to put the condom on it is not really withdrawal, but then also it should be perfectly safe to start without a condom as long as the guy has urinated in between.

Oh! And also, condoms are to prevent not only pregnancy but diseases as well, which can be transimitted through pre-ejaculate...so that's probably a good part of the reason why "perfect use" of condoms involves getting it on before anything happens.

I have another only vaguely charting-related question (I am full of them today) but it will have to wait. I am hailed for bedtime.
post #144 of 379
I've always heard that pre-ejaculate has several million live sperm in it? Now I have to look it up again...
post #145 of 379
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smylingeyz View Post
I've always heard that pre-ejaculate has several million live sperm in it? Now I have to look it up again...
Yes, please do. LOL. And report back. I have heard this and all kinds of other conflicting information. The info that seems to have the most credibility behind it is what MW said earlier about urinating in between times, if you (um, I mean your partner) do this there shouldn't be any sperm, but if you don't there could.

And here is my question. Do any of you have special things you do around the beginning of your new cycle (or anytime in the cycle I guess), whether it's a little ritual, something to celebrate your fertility or something, or just treat yourself to something?

I used to do something special for myself in college but I can't for the life of me remember what it was right now. (Pregnancy brain? )
post #146 of 379
Another temp drop this morning. I was really hoping for an oops, especially today. Oh well.
post #147 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smylingeyz View Post
I've always heard that pre-ejaculate has several million live sperm in it? Now I have to look it up again...
There's been new research that has shown there is no (or almost no) viable sperm in pre-ejaculate except for the reason states previously. I read it but don't have it bookmarked.

Not wearing a condom from the start every time would be user error, too. I guess it just seems strange to me to do that. I mean, if you're going to use condoms, why wouldn't you use them all the time, every time? I think a lot of these rules apply to young people who have less understanding and control. JMHO

Forgot to mention, I've still got ewcf going on and my temp was the same as yesterday. That's a week now of ewcf. *sigh I've been wondering why it's important for me to O when I've got nothing going on. Referring back to the discussion on the end-of-the-lp freak out, I get more anxious and stressed waiting to O because it takes so long and is so unpredictable for me. That's the most difficult time of my cycle.
post #148 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
There's been new research that has shown there is no (or almost no) viable sperm in pre-ejaculate except for the reason states previously. I read it but don't have it bookmarked.

Not wearing a condom from the start every time would be user error, too. I guess it just seems strange to me to do that. I mean, if you're going to use condoms, why wouldn't you use them all the time, every time? I think a lot of these rules apply to young people who have less understanding and control. JMHO

Interesting about the pre-ejaculate. And yes I agree about the other point. Maybe I can use my age (23) as an excuse for no self-control, but I can't. In our case, since we're separated, sex ends up being unexpected and so intense that we just make a stupid decision that we can't wait and kill the moment by getting up and finding a condom, and then a few minutes later kinda come back to earth and change our minds since we REALLY need to avoid pregnancy. tmi maybe? lol
post #149 of 379
When I said young people, I was thinking teenagers. it seems to me, the older
and more experienced you are the less risk you are taking by not using a condom in the beginning. kwim?

but in that case, why bother with a condom when it only decreases the risk by 1%. if you've got enough control to stop in the middle long enough to put a condom on, i'd think you'd have enough control to withdraw. then there's the question about whether using a condom that way increases the risk to the 14% user failure whereas, if you do withdrawal correctly, your risk is only 4%. maybe you're taking more risk by using condoms incorrectly than by doing withdrawal correctly. i'm getting way to analytical.

i'm not even going to touch being separated and still having sex.
post #150 of 379
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
but in that case, why bother with a condom when it only decreases the risk by 1%. if you've got enough control to stop in the middle long enough to put a condom on, i'd think you'd have enough control to withdraw. then there's the question about whether using a condom that way increases the risk to the 14% user failure whereas, if you do withdrawal correctly, your risk is only 4%. maybe you're taking more risk by using condoms incorrectly than by doing withdrawal correctly. i'm getting way to analytical.
Well...we do it that way because we just like to. We don't like doing withdrawal, and (maybe TMI) I actually kind of like using a condom part of the cycle because it's less messy. I still am not getting how not putting the condom on right away would increase your risk MORE than the risk for withdrawal.

I also think these studies have probably just not been done.
post #151 of 379
Thread Starter 
Oh, and I wanted to add a for all who need it - MW for still not O'ing (hope soon!), bbm for not getting your oops, Smylingeyz, etc.
post #152 of 379
BFS- The mess is totally the reason I let my husband get away with picking up condoms once in a while, despite my general disbelief in use of birth control. lol

My chart looks weird this month. Must be my awful sleep pattern.
post #153 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
Well...we do it that way because we just like to. We don't like doing withdrawal, and (maybe TMI) I actually kind of like using a condom part of the cycle because it's less messy. I still am not getting how not putting the condom on right away would increase your risk MORE than the risk for withdrawal.

I also think these studies have probably just not been done.
Yeah, I was thinking that the mess would be a big motivator. We use a towel so there isn't really much mess. No one has to sleep in a wet spot (although, I can't remember the last time we dtd in our bed).

I was just thinking about all the ways to use a condom improperly. If correct condom use means always using it from the beginning every time, then anything other than that would be factored into the user failure data. I don't think that putting it on later into things would increase your risk of getting pg as long as you eventually get it on in time. I think it could increase your risks, though, if you don't always get it on in time.
post #154 of 379
Hi!
I am wondering if I can join?

We used the Billings method for a year and consistently my LP was 6-10 days. We stopped charting for a couple of months and I got pregnant. Which was good. My DD is 6 months now. I had CM a couple of days ago and am suspecting that I am fertile again.

I really do not want to get pregnant for at least 2 years - if ever. I would use another form of BC but DH is very Catholic and I respect his choice.

Which method/methods of NFP is the most reliable? What books/website should I look at?

Thanks for your help.
post #155 of 379
Thread Starter 
Hi JoyFilled, and welcome! I will put your name on the list. I think symptothermal is the most reliable method. Taking Charge of your fertility by toni Weschler (i'm sorry i'm going to give on caps as they are not working right now) is a really easy to understand book. the art of natural family planning by kippley goes way more in depth. if you follow the rules in that book to a t i think you will get the most effectiveness but the rules are much more complicated (i think). other than that, there are some resources in the sticky and you can hang out here and ask us questions.

afm, i am still awaiting af.
post #156 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
afm, i am still awaiting af.
You're temp is still going down. You're lp is still within normal for you, right? Why the dotted crosshairs? Did that happen today because of the watery cf from yesterday?

That's something I keep forgetting to get back to. I can't remember now if I commented on that. I think it was bbm who brought up getting fertile looking cf right before expecting AF and wondering a little if that meant she didn't O. It's normal to get wetter, more fertile looking cf right before AF because progesterone drops and estrogen begins to rise.
post #157 of 379
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarineWife View Post
You're temp is still going down. You're lp is still within normal for you, right? Why the dotted crosshairs? Did that happen today because of the watery cf from yesterday?
Yep, although my temp today was taken way early. I always start at least spotting at 13 dpo (today). I've just felt like I'm about to get my period since yesterday (no cramps so far though, yay) and nothing yet.

Quote:
That's something I keep forgetting to get back to. I can't remember now if I commented on that. I think it was bbm who brought up getting fertile looking cf right before expecting AF and wondering a little if that meant she didn't O. It's normal to get wetter, more fertile looking cf right before AF because progesterone drops and estrogen begins to rise.
Yeah, the dotted crosshairs are because of the watery cf. That's part of why I kind of expected to be bleeding by now. In addition to the reason you mentioned, I think I read that it could be the beginnings of the uterine lining beginning to disinigrate (sp??) and flow out.
post #158 of 379
BFS: at least no cramps!

JoyFilled: I've used Billings/Creighton, but I like symptothermal much more, and Taking Charge of Your Fertility is great; The Art of Natural Family Planning has, I think, a bit more of a reglious under current, but then, it was written by the Kippleys, who kind of "founded" NFP.

AFM: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/277407 Um...my temp went up .5 this morning. Not sure if that is for real or if it was just a fluke...also, I had a small bit of EWCF today...but I'm not sure if I'm going to record it, because obviously, I have ovulated! I'm kind of freaking out in an excited sort of way, but trying to be neutral; DH isn't too thrilled
post #159 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarefootScientist View Post
Well...we do it that way because we just like to. We don't like doing withdrawal, and (maybe TMI) I actually kind of like using a condom part of the cycle because it's less messy. I still am not getting how not putting the condom on right away would increase your risk MORE than the risk for withdrawal. :confuse


And MW - ya I know my situation is a mess and I won't get into it here... I agree with you though. Maybe you can give me tips on rejecting a very insistent and often pushy guy who struggles with boundaries I'm working on it as much as I can in my current situation.
post #160 of 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smylingeyz View Post


And MW - ya I know my situation is a mess and I won't get into it here... I agree with you though. Maybe you can give me tips on rejecting a very insistent and often pushy guy who struggles with boundaries I'm working on it as much as I can in my current situation.


My sister has gone through situation similar to yours, and it's tough!
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