The complications that are swept under the rug

[BlessedMommy2006]

It really, really bothers me that people assume that circumcision is virtually problem free. I think that the reason why people assume it is because men don't talk about their penises or their sex lives with their mothers.

For example, my DH has an overly tight circumcision that has caused some mild problems for him.

When I talked to my MIL about circ, she said, "But I circumcised my boys and I never had ANY problems!"

Um, no not technically correct. But I'm sure not going to discuss such private details of my DH's anatomy with my MIL so I let it slide.

How do we spread the awareness of circ complications when it seems like long term problems are pushed under the rug?

It really frustrates me that "neutral" sources on circ usually only cite the short term problems with circ and not the long term ones. And if you say that you or your partner have problems as a result of circ, no one really cares. Circ is such a common procedure that somehow it's become sanctioned and people probably assume that you're being overreactive or reading too many internet articles if you complain about problems

Sigh.

[Marnica]

I would think that the men who have had the complications need to be more vocal about it....speak up, speak publicly. Otherwise it can be viewed as conjecture

[2lilsweetfoxes]

The problem is that a lot of the longer-term complications are seen as being "normal".

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

When I talked to my MIL about circ, she said, "But I circumcised my boys and I never had ANY problems!"

My MIL would claim the same thing. Ex would NEVER tell her had issues because he wouldn't want her to feel guilty. Ironic huh?

[hakunangovi]

[QUOTE=BlessedMommy2006;14464416]
When I talked to my MIL about circ, she said, "But I circumcised my boys and I never had ANY problems!"

SHE probably did not have any problems, but obviously HER SONS did.

I agree with the PP in that men rarely talk about their penis, and it is a safe bet that very few will vocalise any problems. The sad truth is that when they do get the courage to speak out, most people tend to trivialise their issues. Most "safe" places are confined to the internet such as www.norm.org , where they once did a large survey and recorded problems directly caused by circumcision. I, too, suffer from a tight circ, and have on the odd occasion voiced them here. I have also told my doctor. God bless her, she is quite sympathetic and considers RIC as "bizarre".

[Fyrestorm]

No Dr. would admit that DH's Meatal Stenosis is because of being cut until I spoke up...He finally admitted that it is unheard of in "uncircumcised" men. I also corrected his use of "uncircumcised" by asking if he was unlabotomized.

My MIL knew of this problem since it first occured in childhood. I was the one who informed her that it was because she had his genitals mutialted. I think she finally gets it.

[PuppyFluffer]

I think most men don't wish to talk about their private parts. There is an emotional/mental component. The penis is a source of virility and strength. To complain that yours has a problem can be to imply that it's not a strong part of yourself. I has to be a huge emotional wound to consciously admit your penis was altered, against your consent, and has problems. I also think many circumcised men in the US have no idea that their circumcision is the cause of any discomfort they may experience. I suspect that many men think their discomforts are normal.

[jessjgh1]

I just don't understand how it is okay for sites (medical sites) to list lifelong 'problems' of intactness and only include problems from circumcision that are only seen in the first days after the procedure.

Here's some bias:
All stats for intact 'problems' will include penile cancer with is typically in the elderly and rare.
Stats for circumcision risks NEVER include meatal stenosis which is not seen immediatly post-op but weeks, months or years down the line due to the foreskin being removed and the urethra/meatus being exposed to urine/feces.
I mean, there are so many more things swept under the rug, but the ethics of this one (imo) clear example are just mind-boggling.

And then just doing a risk comparison....
The risks as is (the current biased rates) are still in favor of intactness.
Do nothing. OVERALL Risk = 1 in 100 men may need circumcision some time in life
Circumcision. Have a surgury. Risk of re-circumcision = 1 in 100 babies will need a 2nd surgury.
And note, this is just the recircumcision risk, most sites do acknowledge other rare (but tragic) risks such as death... then there are adhesions, meatal stenosi, and problems that dont' manifest till puberty

I don't get the logic.

Jessica

Risks from the Canadian Pediatrics Circumcision Information... but they are pretty widly accepted
http://www.cps.ca/caringforkids/preg...rcumcision.htm

[thixle]

Originally Posted by BlessedMommy2006

When I talked to my MIL about circ, she said, "But I circumcised my boys and I never had ANY problems!"

Um, no not technically correct. But I'm sure not going to discuss such private details of my DH's anatomy with my MIL so I let it slide.

How do we spread the awareness of circ complications when it seems like long term problems are pushed under the rug?

No offense intended, but by NOT saying something to your MIL, you are just as guilty of sweeping it under the rug

Everyone needs to speak up about it whenever they can.

[KaylaBeanie]

I think a lot of men don't realize that what they're experiencing isn't normal. Tight erections, problems with lack of sensitivity, etc. Also, the intact penis is portrayed as having so many problems. So these cut guys notice these issues with their penises, and think "Wow, thank lord I'm circumcised, if uncut ones are so much more work than THIS I'd be so mad if I was uncut!" I think it's pretty tragic, all these parents who circ so that they don't have to deal with issues, when they would have avoided all issues by just doing nothing.

[caro113]

They also just assume its healthier and safer. Bc, you know, circumcision helps prevent HIV, especially since we all know how unreliable condoms are

I was talking with a friend of mine about IVF once and she told me how she was a product of that. Apparently her dad isn't her biological father. It has something to do with him not producing sperm. And how did this happen? A botched circumcision. How about that for complications swept under the rug? No one ever talks about that possibility either.

Unfortunately, men never talk about their penis. At all. Especially with their mothers. I can see the scars on DP's penis. For the most part, he's fine and doesn't really have any problems, but that doesn't make it okay. Men do need to stand up, for so do women. Women need to make their voices heard as to why they keep their sons intact. And men, both intact and circumcised, need to speak out as well.

What I don't understand is this: It's perfectly legal - and usually encouraged - to circumcise our sons, yet it's illegal - and considered cruel - to circumcise our daughters. Honestly, I don't see much a difference. Circumcision is circumcision. Whether to a boy or girl. It's still torture and it's still painful and it's still wrong. Very very wrong.

[caro113]

Originally Posted by caro113

What I don't understand is this: It's perfectly legal - and usually encouraged - to circumcise our sons, yet it's illegal - and considered cruel - to circumcise our daughters. Honestly, I don't see much a difference. Circumcision is circumcision. Whether to a boy or girl. It's still torture and it's still painful and it's still wrong. Very very wrong.

PS: I just made that my facebook status .. we'll see what kind of responses I get

[bandgeek]

Originally Posted by thixle

No offense intended, but by NOT saying something to your MIL, you are just as guilty of sweeping it under the rug

Everyone needs to speak up about it whenever they can.

I disagree. I think the men in our lives deserve privacy in these matters. I think when talking about these things, it's helpful to talk about large-scale...statistics, court cases, deaths in the news, ect. Semi-anonymous message boards are one thing....telling his mother is another. If HE wants to bring it up to him mom, it needs to be his agenda, in his own time.

[jessjgh1]

Do you think doctors even inform parents that meatal stenosis is due to circumcision?

[Fyrestorm]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

Do you think doctors even inform parents that meatal stenosis is due to circumcision?

No...they don't! I had to tell the doctor to tell my DH that that was why he has had to have several surgeries to fix it... He was like - "well, it is unheard of in uncircumcised men" I also corrected him on the "uncircumcised" term by asking if he was unlobotomized!


ETA: I think I posted this down thread somewhere....

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by jessjgh1

Do you think doctors even inform parents that meatal stenosis is due to circumcision?

Yes and No. I know this for a fact because a few years after my first dear son was born he was referred to a urologist. The uro said, "He has Meatal Stenosis. This wouldn't have happened if he wasn't circumcised."

I went to the hospital where he was born (on the same day of his dx) to retrieve his birth records in search of a "consent form" so I could see for myself [mind you, after his birth, I was so whacked out - so was my dh, I don't remember what I signed] if "Meatal Stenosis" was on the form. Got a complete copy of my records AND ds records and guess what, no "consent form".

Called the office of the pediatrician who circ'd my ds. Asked if maybe there were any records at her office - specifically a "circumcision consent form". I was making it my mission to MAKE SURE PARENTS KNEW THIS WAS A CIRC COMPLICATION!. The nurse I spoke to said there isn't any records of him. I fired that pediatrician a week after ds was born. Nurse suggested I go to the hospital and get it; saying it would be there. After telling her I already looked and it wasn't at the hospital she said, "hold on" I wait for a long time then hear, "YOUR SON IS NO LONGER OUR PATIENT SO LEGALLY I CAN'T TALK TO YOU!" she hangs up the phone.

I go to the hospital again to see about getting a copy. They refused to give me a copy: THEIR POLICY STATES THAT PARENTS CAN ONLY SEE THE FORM AFTER THE BIRTH!

I give up. But I couldn't let it go. A few months later I convinced my dh to get a copy of the form. He goes, and says after the first refusal, "Please, I'd really like to see it NOW, BEFORE the baby is born because I know I won't be in my right mind after the birth and it wouldn't be a good time to make a life altering decision for my son."

The entire nursing station gathered to hear the exchange. After witnessing his plea for a copy of a "consent form" BEFORE the birth. Everyone fell silent.

"Let me see what I can do." says the nurse.

She returns with a hospital information package and slips a copy of the consent form in that folder.

"Meatal Stenosis" was not listed as a complication on that form.

I called the nurse who hung up on me and asked her, "Why aren't you telling parents this information?" The nurse then tells me, "We have a policy that sates we can't tell the parents anything unless they ask."

They're literally 'banking' on the parents ignorance.

Especially if they already have a twisted cultural mindset of what THEY THINK THEY ALREADY KNOW.

Oh, heres a ticker, in the hospital information package, there is information on the care of a fresh circ wound. It says, "The glans on the penis may scab and even appear to have a yellow crust on it. Do not be alarmed. There is no need to wipe it away. This is a normal part of the healing process." for INTACT CARE??? it says, "If you decide not to circumcise, please consult your child's pediatrician for further information." Like its some big scary mystery or something.

[Belle]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

The entire nursing station gathered to hear the exchange. After witnessing his plea for a copy of a "consent form" BEFORE the birth. Everyone fell silent.

"Let me see what I can do." says the nurse.

She returns with a hospital information package and slips a copy of the consent form in that folder.

"Meatal Stenosis" was not listed as a complication on that form.

I called the nurse who hung up on me and asked her, "Why aren't you telling parents this information?" The nurse then tells me, "We have a policy that sates we can't tell the parents anything unless they ask."

They're literally 'banking' on the parents ignorance.

Especially if they already have a twisted cultural mindset of what THEY THINK THEY ALREADY KNOW.

Oh, heres a ticker, in the hospital information package, there is information on the care of a fresh circ wound. It says, "The glans on the penis may scab and even appear to have a yellow crust on it. Do not be alarmed. There is no need to wipe it away. This is a normal part of the healing process." for INTACT CARE??? it says, "If you decide not to circumcise, please consult your child's pediatrician for further information." Like its some big scary mystery or something.

So what about informed consent? When I had a D&C for a miscarriage one of the possible complications listed on the consent form was hysterectomy. I started crying at the mention of that. They certainly didn't take my feelings into account in sparing me what could happen. I'm glad I knew the risk.

I'm glad you are persuing this.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally Posted by fruitful womb

Yes and No. I know this for a fact because a few years after my first dear son was born he was referred to a urologist. The uro said, "He has Meatal Stenosis. This wouldn't have happened if he wasn't circumcised."

I went to the hospital where he was born (on the same day of his dx) to retrieve his birth records in search of a "consent form" so I could see for myself [mind you, after his birth, I was so whacked out - so was my dh, I don't remember what I signed] if "Meatal Stenosis" was on the form. Got a complete copy of my records AND ds records and guess what, no "consent form".

Called the office of the pediatrician who circ'd my ds. Asked if maybe there were any records at her office - specifically a "circumcision consent form". I was making it my mission to MAKE SURE PARENTS KNEW THIS WAS A CIRC COMPLICATION!. The nurse I spoke to said there isn't any records of him. I fired that pediatrician a week after ds was born. Nurse suggested I go to the hospital and get it; saying it would be there. After telling her I already looked and it wasn't at the hospital she said, "hold on" I wait for a long time then hear, "YOUR SON IS NO LONGER OUR PATIENT SO LEGALLY I CAN'T TALK TO YOU!" she hangs up the phone.

I go to the hospital again to see about getting a copy. They refused to give me a copy: THEIR POLICY STATES THAT PARENTS CAN ONLY SEE THE FORM AFTER THE BIRTH!

I give up. But I couldn't let it go. A few months later I convinced my dh to get a copy of the form. He goes, and says after the first refusal, "Please, I'd really like to see it NOW, BEFORE the baby is born because I know I won't be in my right mind after the birth and it wouldn't be a good time to make a life altering decision for my son."

The entire nursing station gathered to hear the exchange. After witnessing his plea for a copy of a "consent form" BEFORE the birth. Everyone fell silent.

"Let me see what I can do." says the nurse.

She returns with a hospital information package and slips a copy of the consent form in that folder.

"Meatal Stenosis" was not listed as a complication on that form.

I called the nurse who hung up on me and asked her, "Why aren't you telling parents this information?" The nurse then tells me, "We have a policy that sates we can't tell the parents anything unless they ask."

They're literally 'banking' on the parents ignorance.

Especially if they already have a twisted cultural mindset of what THEY THINK THEY ALREADY KNOW.

Oh, heres a ticker, in the hospital information package, there is information on the care of a fresh circ wound. It says, "The glans on the penis may scab and even appear to have a yellow crust on it. Do not be alarmed. There is no need to wipe it away. This is a normal part of the healing process." for INTACT CARE??? it says, "If you decide not to circumcise, please consult your child's pediatrician for further information." Like its some big scary mystery or something.

This story is absolutely horrifying and I hope that you are persuing them with everything you've got. If you yourself are not suing them, I hope you will set things up in such a way that your DS can sue himself as soon as he turn 18.

It almost seems to me as if there is NO accountability in American medicine, and that they can pretty much do whatever they want to you and get away with it. This is why when I was having my twins I honestly made the decision that I would put a bullet into anyone who "inadvertently" circumcised either of them. (Not necessary fortunately ) That at least represents some tangible accountability and would likely act as a genuine deterrent.

I also think you should do what you can to publicise what happened to your DS. I would be writing letters to the editor to local newspapers letting people know that their sons can be circed without a consent form, that the hospital in question has a policy of not allowing parents to even see the consent form prior to birth, presumably so that they will be maximally disoriented at the time they make the decision whether or not to sign. Let people know that meatal stenosis is a very common complication and that it is not mentioned on the local consent forms. I would name the hospital where this happened too, people have the right to be warned, and maybe some public embarrassment would encourage them to change their policies.

Please do everything that you can. If these people are never held to account, they will never stop abusing children and their parents at the most vulnerable times of their lives.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by Crunchy Frog

This story is absolutely horrifying and I hope that you are persuing them with everything you've got. If you yourself are not suing them, I hope you will set things up in such a way that your DS can sue himself as soon as he turn 18.

It almost seems to me as if there is NO accountability in American medicine, and that they can pretty much do whatever they want to you and get away with it. This is why when I was having my twins I honestly made the decision that I would put a bullet into anyone who "inadvertently" circumcised either of them. (Not necessary fortunately ) That at least represents some tangible accountability and would likely act as a genuine deterrent.

I also think you should do what you can to publicise what happened to your DS. I would be writing letters to the editor to local newspapers letting people know that their sons can be circed without a consent form, that the hospital in question has a policy of not allowing parents to even see the consent form prior to birth, presumably so that they will be maximally disoriented at the time they make the decision whether or not to sign. Let people know that meatal stenosis is a very common complication and that it is not mentioned on the local consent forms. I would name the hospital where this happened too, people have the right to be warned, and maybe some public embarrassment would encourage them to change their policies.

Please do everything that you can. If these people are never held to account, they will never stop abusing children and their parents at the most vulnerable times of their lives.

Thank you for your encouragement Crunchy Frog. Not long after this, I talked with a lawyer. I wanted to fight for him so he wouldn't have to relive his trauma. Everything would go into a trust fund for him. The Lawyer said because of the statue of limitations in my state was age 2 yrs, he was dx with Meatal Stenosis at age 3, had expired, I couldn't pursue litigation. But he could when he reaches 18.

Honestly, I don't know what else to do! I feel like I'm trying to fight this with my hands tied behind my back.

[fruitful womb]

Originally Posted by Belle

So what about informed consent? When I had a D&C for a miscarriage one of the possible complications listed on the consent form was hysterectomy. I started crying at the mention of that. They certainly didn't take my feelings into account in sparing me what could happen. I'm glad I knew the risk.

I'm glad you are persuing this.

"informed consent" by proxy on the penis that never needed to be corrected. This was an unwarranted surgery, so I'm guessing they didn't really care about "informed consent".

btw, so sorry for your loss