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Questions for Eastern Orthodox Members

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
I am not a member of the Orthodox church, but I really am attracted to it. Years ago I found a Russian Orthodox cafe/bookstore with a church in the back, and I attend service a few times and bought several books, including a beautiful prayer book. I absolutely love the prayers in it... they are some of the same ones "hymned" in service.

My question is, is it okay for me to "hymn" these prayers at home not being a member of the church? Especially because I'm not exactly sure if I'm doing it exactly the way it is done regarding which words to lift the voice on more or put the accent on... what is the view of the church on this? I know that some prayers are done in a certain "tone" and I don't do those as I don't know the tones, but I'm not talking about those... more like the morning prayers and evening prayers.

Thanks.
post #2 of 22

orthodox

There are not any rules on chanting at home or how you do it as far as I know. I would get a CD. I listen to our Liturgy and Vespers service at home and in the car. I even listened and chanted along with headphones and a CD player on during my second C section.
post #3 of 22
you may absolutely pray with the prayer book. sing it, say it do whatever you want but God loves to hear your prayers however they go up I am glad you like the prayers and find them helpful on your walk. I read so many books on my journey to the Church but what really pushed me over the edge was my little prayer book. they are so beautiful and powerful!!! Also feel free to go into that church and talk to the preist about the prayers and any suggestions he has for utilizing them. I am sure he would be delighted to talk to you.
post #4 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
you may absolutely pray with the prayer book. sing it, say it do whatever you want but God loves to hear your prayers however they go up I am glad you like the prayers and find them helpful on your walk. I read so many books on my journey to the Church but what really pushed me over the edge was my little prayer book. they are so beautiful and powerful!!! Also feel free to go into that church and talk to the preist about the prayers and any suggestions he has for utilizing them. I am sure he would be delighted to talk to you.
Yes, the prayers are soo incredibly beautiful and powerful! I would love to go back and talk with the priest, but I'm living several states away from there now... I really wish I could find another spot like that.
post #5 of 22
if you need help finding a preist in your area let me know and I can tell you where the closest church is. Or my priest would probably be happy to email with you if you had any questions. I am quite convinced he is the sweetest man on the planet.
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
if you need help finding a preist in your area let me know and I can tell you where the closest church is. Or my priest would probably be happy to email with you if you had any questions. I am quite convinced he is the sweetest man on the planet.
Um, no, that's MY priest!



post #7 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
if you need help finding a preist in your area let me know and I can tell you where the closest church is. Or my priest would probably be happy to email with you if you had any questions. I am quite convinced he is the sweetest man on the planet.
Thank you. I may take you up on the offer if I have any tough questions that specifically need a priest.
post #8 of 22
I realize this is an old thread but while looking for something else I stumbled across it. I was wondering if you had ever gotten intouch with a priest?
post #9 of 22
O.k., ready for the ignorance to begin? I am Roman Catholic (converted) and while I was well versed in the church I know little about Eastern Orthodox (either catholic or not). From the perspective of a member, or someone who attends, what do you think the differances are. I know I can google this, but was hoping for something more personal.
post #10 of 22
on he surface -there are some major doctrinal issues. Catholics changed the creed, Orthodox do not believe in papal infallibility, imaculate conception, purgatory (I know this is not doctrine in the RC church but it is believed and taught by many). Also when the two churches were one the Pope was first in honor amoung euqals. Since the RC church broke off that title is now held by the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople. How ever he does not have any power (except the powere that comes with reverence and wisdom) over any of the other Patriarchs.

And in the last 800 years there has been less change in the Orthodox church than the Catholic church. No vatican two type stuff.

we use levened bread in communion. I do not know why but it is very important.

We have had no protestant reformation sort of stuff either. the last major branch to break off was the Roman patriachate (which was one of five. however while the four who did not break off were joined geographically and by a common language, Rome was sorta cut off. it was far from the others and had its own language and culture and this proved to be the seeds that grew into the schism). the reformers splintered from Rome shortly there after.

We do have a lot in common though as we used to be one church. So things like being liturgucal and some of the elements of our worship. both churches are sacremental (although our sacrements are different or preformed differently), take a strong stance against birth control (at least on paper) and abortion, discourage divorce. our priests can marry under specific guidelines but out bishops and higher clergy are chosen from the ranks of monastics and celibate preists. we both cross ourselves although we go head, heart, right, left. There seems to be less tolerance in the Orthodox church for people who want to change the church. A rouge priest would not be tolerated nor would members who were trying to force change or work against church teachings.

We do not use statues, only 2D images. Icons are cannonized and can only be written one way. no artistic lisence is allowed. everything from colors to the shape of heads and hand positioning in set in stone.

this of course is just a small part and what is off the top of my head. the best way to find out is just to visit a parish and attend liturgy or a prayer service. keep in mind though we do not consider Roman Catholics in communion even if your priest tells you we are. in fact I think we are welcome to receive at Catholic churches (although it would excommunicate us from the Orthodox church. my point is the Catholic church would welcome us) but none but Eastern Orthodox and then not all of them, may recieve at an Orthodox church. But other than that you are wecome to come and participate fully in the service.
post #11 of 22
Faithsstuff, for a personal experience, I suggest that you visit an Eastern Catholic church in your area. The 20+ Eastern Catholic churches are in full communion with Rome and preserve most of the Eastern Orthodox traditions, such as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Nicene Creed without the infamous "filioque," no statues, etc. Many of the Eastern Catholic churches were formerly Orthodox, but chose over the centuries to accept the authority of Rome. I grew up as a Roman Catholic, but became interested in Eastern liturgical traditions while living in Greece, and now I am a Byzantine Catholic. Roman Catholics can receive the Eucharist in Eastern Catholic churches and vice versa -- that's what it means to be in full communion with Rome.
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithsstuff View Post
O.k., ready for the ignorance to begin? I am Roman Catholic (converted) and while I was well versed in the church I know little about Eastern Orthodox (either catholic or not). From the perspective of a member, or someone who attends, what do you think the differances are. I know I can google this, but was hoping for something more personal.
Just to expand on what Lilyka wrote somewhat. Orthodox polity is collegial, while Roman polity is monarchial. To be considered an Orthodox Christian, you have to be in communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. His position within Orthodoxy is very similar to that of the Archbishop of Canterbury within the Anglican Communion.

On thing that is different, but you have to experience personally, is that Orthodox parishes are generally much smaller than Roman parishes. This has two results: one, the parish has much more of a "family" feel; two, you are truly known by name (and personally) by the priest which adds an element of accountability that doesn't seem to be present in large Roman parishes. A "large" Orthodox parish would be 600+ people. That would be considered an extremely small Roman parish. Many Orthodox parishes seem to be smaller than 300 people. By accountability, I mean that the parish priest is aware of who and what you are. He knows what's going on in your life. In other words, if you're not Orthodox, or shouldn't be taking Communion for whatever reason, you will be turned away at the chalice, if you are presumptuous to attempt to take Communion (for example, in my 150-200 member parish, one 50ish fellow was rather open that he had begun living together with his non-Orthodox girlfriend. Our priest told him he was barred from the chalice until he either married her or they stopped living together). Plus, the priest will be the only person giving Communion (in a parish with two priests and a lot of people, there might be two chalices). I grew up Catholic, going to Catholic school, and still have family/friends who are Catholic, and this has been something we've discussed extensively.

So, the priest knows what's been going in your family, with your work situation, have you been to Confession, etc. And if he needs to talk to you, he *will.* In contrast, the Catholic parishes are so large that I've known people who weren't Catholic, go up and receive Communion and nothing was said/done about it.

Orthodoxy is also generally stricter in practice than Rome. We fast (abstain really, but the terms are used interchangeably) from meat, dairy, and fish for what amounts to about half the year - most Wednesdays and Fridays, 40 days before Pascha (Easter), 40 days before Christmas, the first two weeks in August before the Dormition of the Theotokos (the Catholic Assumption), and the Apostles (SS. Peter & Paul) Fast (before their June 29 feast day) - length varies for this last depending on the date of Pascha. While the Catholics will allow (with permission from the diocese - it's called "disparity of cult" dispensation) marriage to non-Christians, the Orthodox absolutely will not allow the marriage of an Orthodox to a non-Christian (ETA: an Orthodox can only be married to a Christian baptized in the name of the Trinity). If an Orthodox Christian marries outside of the Church, in either a civil ceremony, in another Christian body, or another religion's cermony (say Muslim), the Orthodox Christian has immediately excommunicated themselves. It's no joking matter.

We also only have one Divine Liturgy (Eucharist) each Sunday or feast day. Or rather, an Orthodox priest is only allowed to serve the Liturgy once each day. The spiritual practice of a daily Eucharist is not part of Orthodox practice, such as it is in Roman practice. One Liturgy per priest, per altar, per day. In some large parishes or cathedrals, especially where there is a need for Liturgies in multiple languages (say English and Slavonic), if there are multiple priests, you might find multiple Liturgies on Sundays, but there will be a second altar, or a small portable altar used.

Our music is all a capella. We don't have hymns in the Western sense of the word - rhymed with stanzas and maybe a refrain. It's rhythmical prose. The texts have been fixed for a very long time. The melodies, on the other hand, differ depending on whether you're in a church of Russian background (four part harmonies) or Greek (very exotic-sounding Byzantine chant).

There is also no "First Communion" as in the Roman Church. Children are baptized and chrismated (anointed with Holy Chrism, equivalent to Confirmation) as infants, and they receive Communion at the same time, as infants. Baptism is by triple immersion - and the kids get dunked good! Children generally go to Confession the first time around age 7-8.
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fay View Post
Many of the Eastern Catholic churches were formerly Orthodox, but chose over the centuries to accept the authority of Rome.
Many didn't have a choice. There were also changes due to political reasons (borders moving - now being under Orthodox Russia, now being under Catholic Poland, for example).
post #14 of 22
Tradd, I liked your entire comment and thought all the points were clear and well expressed, as well as accurate. However, I have to take issue with one point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
Orthodox polity is collegial, while Roman polity is monarchial. To be considered an Orthodox Christian, you have to be in communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople. His position within Orthodoxy is very similar to that of the Archbishop of Canterbury within the Anglican Communion.
No, you absolutely do not have to be in communion with Constantinople, or with any other particular bishop or diocese, in order to be considered an Orthodox Christian.
There have been great saints, such as Maximos the Confessor, who broke contact with Constantinople when the Patriarch broke (temporarily) with Orthodox doctrine. St. Maximos did not cease to be an Orthodox Christian during that time, although arguably the heretical Patriarch did.
If we had any one bishop who must be accepted in order to be Orthodox, that bishop would hold the same position as the Roman Catholic Pope. That is not allowable in the Orthodox collegial tradition.
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabadger View Post
Tradd, I liked your entire comment and thought all the points were clear and well expressed, as well as accurate. However, I have to take issue with one point:
No, you absolutely do not have to be in communion with Constantinople, or with any other particular bishop or diocese, in order to be considered an Orthodox Christian.
There have been great saints, such as Maximos the Confessor, who broke contact with Constantinople when the Patriarch broke (temporarily) with Orthodox doctrine. St. Maximos did not cease to be an Orthodox Christian during that time, although arguably the heretical Patriarch did.
If we had any one bishop who must be accepted in order to be Orthodox, that bishop would hold the same position as the Roman Catholic Pope. That is not allowable in the Orthodox collegial tradition.

Well, perhaps that was the wrong choice of words - canonical? mainstream?

Last year I dated a fellow from Eastern Europe - he was Macedonian Orthodox, whose church had broken away from the Serbs due to political issues. They weren't considered canonical by anyone, although at least some of the laity would be communed in canonical Orthodox parishes, on a case-by-case basis.
post #16 of 22
it is case by case at our parish as well. Many of our members are Ethiopian Orthodox. I am not sure how it all works out but its definitely an ask the preist before you recieve sort of thing.
post #17 of 22
I'm also going to address a question here I've run into other places for those who might be wondering:

Question: what if a person wants to convert to Orthodoxy, but was not married in a Christian ceremony, and the spouse is not interested in religion at all?

Answer:
The answer depends on which Orthodox "jurisdiction" a parish belongs to. There are multiple jurisdictions in North America and the reasons are historical, going back almost a century. That's another post. But it means that different jurisdictions have different stances on this.

Anyway, yes, you CAN convert to Orthodoxy, even in such a situation, but you would have to convert in either the OCA (Orthodox Church in America - has Russian roots but has been independent from Moscow since 1970 and is quite Americanized) or Antiochian Archdiocese. I highly recommend the OCA, as that's what I'm a member of. Parishes are virtually all English speaking unless there is a local immigrant population (this isn't common) that requires services in Slavonic, for example.

The OCA and the Antiochians do NOT make converts (already married people) have a Church wedding. The Antiochians will do this for convert couples where the man is going to be ordained, but this doesn't apply in your case. The Antiochian rule for those being ordained is only a few years old.

The Greek Archdiocese and the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia generally require converts to be married in the Church. This has come up multiple times on a convert email list I used to belong to. One representative example: A guy who wanted to convert in a Greek parish (with a wife not interested in converting and was non-Christian, as well) was told that while he could convert, he would never be allowed to go to Confession, Communion, etc. What's the point, really, of joining the Church under such circumstances if you don't have access to the sacraments, was his question. Greek parish websites often specifically state that if you aren't married in the Church, you cannot come to Communion, Confession, have a Church funeral, serve as a godparent or sponsor at a wedding.

I'm making any judgments on either way of doing it (requiring or not requiring converts to marry) - either way can have its own complications.

My priest told me several years about a guy who had converted in our parish. His wife was not Christian and not interested in religious things at all. This fellow went to the local Greek parish to visit for a Liturgy. When he went up to get Communion, he must have gotten quite the grilling at the chalice. For when the Greek priest found out this fellow was not married in the Church, he refused to give him Communion. My priest was not happy when he was telling this story, so the Greek priest must have really embarrassed this fellow.

There's also a priest in my area (I won't say whether he's Antiochian or OCA) who was asked to be a godfather to a baby in a Greek Orthodox parish. He's been a priest for more than 20 years. He and his wife are both converts, were already married when they converted from another Christian body where he had been a minister. They were not married in the Orthodox Church. The Greek Archdiocese did not allow Fr. X to be the godfather, because he was not married in the Church. They didn't care he was a priest.

The OCA website has a good encyclical on marriage - it even reminds priests that converts are not to be remarried in the Church (towards the bottom of the C section).
http://www.oca.org/DOCencyclical.asp?SID=12&ID=4

Now, there are some cases, for pastoral reasons, where a priest will not baptize/chrismate one spouse and not the other, but these have been when it's usually been done for the peace of the home - for example, when one spouse is almost violently opposed to the other converting, things like that.

We've got another member of my parish who converted a few years after he married a Jewish woman. His kids were raised Orthodox (Christian). She wanted to convert, but had parental issues. So now that her mother has died, she's going to convert. She's come to church with her DH for 30+ years! Talk about patience!

ETA: I forgot to add that the Orthodox church can use what's called "economia" - probably best translated as "pastoral discretion" - in cases such as these. Sometimes the "general rule" isn't so hard and fast. But it requires sitting down with the local priest for a discussion on the particulars of your situation at the *beginning* of your interest in Orthodoxy, and depending on the specific situation, he might have to consult the bishop, as well, for further guidance.
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tradd View Post
A guy who wanted to convert in a Greek parish (with a wife not interested in converting and was non-Christian, as well) was told that while he could convert, he would never be allowed to go to Confession, Communion, etc. What's the point, really, of joining the Church under such circumstances if you don't have access to the sacraments, was his question. Greek parish websites often specifically state that if you aren't married in the Church, you cannot come to Communion, Confession, have a Church funeral, serve as a godparent or sponsor at a wedding.

My priest told me several years about a guy who had converted in our parish. His wife was not Christian and not interested in religious things at all. This fellow went to the local Greek parish to visit for a Liturgy. When he went up to get Communion, he must have gotten quite the grilling at the chalice. For when the Greek priest found out this fellow was not married in the Church, he refused to give him Communion. My priest was not happy when he was telling this story, so the Greek priest must have really embarrassed this fellow.

There's also a priest in my area (I won't say whether he's Antiochian or OCA) who was asked to be a godfather to a baby in a Greek Orthodox parish. He's been a priest for more than 20 years. He and his wife are both converts, were already married when they converted from another Christian body where he had been a minister. They were not married in the Orthodox Church. The Greek Archdiocese did not allow Fr. X to be the godfather, because he was not married in the Church. They didn't care he was a priest.
I attend a greek parish and have never heard any of this. My marital status has never been an issue. we did put off converting so as to keep peace in my family, so that my children could convert with me and in hope that my husband would also convert. None of it was about shunning me or because I couldn't fully convert without my husband. it was all about doing what was best for my family and waiting on Gods perfect timing. Weather or not we were married sacrementally was a non-issue. and would have been a non-issue had we stayed married. But it is not at all unusual for a person to convert without their spouse and I have never ever heard of anyone being refused sacrements because of it. i certainly wasn't. There are many people in my church who converted without their spouse, and therefore do not have sacremental marfriages. also couples have converted without having a church marriage (although most want it) and no one is penalized for it.

I will check more into it but I think this may be the case of a couple of off priests and not at all a policy from the Archdiocese. If people are treated this way they need to get clarification from their Bishop and preist on why exactly. while the state of their marriage may have been the root of it there may have been other things at play. I have never heard anything like this being a rule. and I converted, as a married person, without my husband, and amarriage that was anything but sacremental.

how would the topic of a persons marital status even come up at the challice? I have never been asked anything other than my name....
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
I attend a greek parish and have never heard any of this. My marital status has never been an issue. we did put off converting so as to keep peace in my family, so that my children could convert with me and in hope that my husband would also convert. None of it was about shunning me or because I couldn't fully convert without my husband. it was all about doing what was best for my family and waiting on Gods perfect timing. Weather or not we were married sacrementally was a non-issue. and would have been a non-issue had we stayed married. But it is not at all unusual for a person to convert without their spouse and I have never ever heard of anyone being refused sacrements because of it. i certainly wasn't. There are many people in my church who converted without their spouse, and therefore do not have sacremental marfriages. also couples have converted without having a church marriage (although most want it) and no one is penalized for it.

I will check more into it but I think this may be the case of a couple of off priests and not at all a policy from the Archdiocese. If people are treated this way they need to get clarification from their Bishop and preist on why exactly. while the state of their marriage may have been the root of it there may have been other things at play. I have never heard anything like this being a rule. and I converted, as a married person, without my husband, and amarriage that was anything but sacremental.

how would the topic of a persons marital status even come up at the challice? I have never been asked anything other than my name....
Go down to the .pdf file, Pastoral Guidelines for Intermarriage

http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/de...ach/interfaith

Well, if the priests in question are "rogue," there certainly seems to be more than a few of them.

I've just emailed a local Greek priest I know pretty well (work with him on pan-Orthodox events), and we'll see what he has to say about any sort of official stance. He's apparently one of the more senior, respected priests in this Metropolis. I've also emailed a ROCOR matushka who is a very good friend and requested she ask her priest husband if they have any official stance, as well - since I can't find anything online.

As for the guy who was grilled at the chalice, that's another example of why you should call or email the priest to introduce yourself before visiting an unfamiliar parish if you're expecting to receive Communion. Folks don't do it, even if their priest tells them to.
post #20 of 22
Well if you don't talk to the preist before hand you should not be surprised if you get turned away or grilled. i mean gees, they aren't going to hand it out to strangers.

I don't doubt they have the right to turn someone away for any reason but I have never known anyone who was turned away for lack of a sacremental marriage. unless there refusal to have it done was rooted in something deeper like rebellion.
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