Another "Disciplining Somebody Else's Child, WWYD" Thread - Page 4

[Latte Mama]

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

I. If I've been unclear, then that's my fault, but I feel like my posts are being broken apart and only certain parts being used.

You're not unclear at all! I know exactly what you're saying, it's very simple and I agree. You're not blaming the child, you expect parents to parent and NO that doesn't mean yelling and smacking. Good grief there are certainly many things that can be said to the child that don't shame. Courtesy and consideration go a long way when you're a guest in one's home. Do I have the gist of it ?

And I agree with you.

[jeca]

I don't think you did anything wrong since it was your dc's party she was trying to take over. Her mother should have tried harder but since she didn't you were within your right to stop her from doing the things you didn't want her to do.

[widemouthedfrog]

At our four-year-old's birthday party, the same two things happened - almost.
I was quite happy to let one little girl eat nearly all of the strawberries. I figured that she liked strawberries. She sat at the table and ate almost all of them.

I did ask another little guy if he could hold off on eating the cake until dd blew out her candles, though. He was standing beside her and eating it as she tried to blow them out.

I don't have a problem politely asking kids to behave in a more socially-appropriate manner, but I tend to let the situation be unless it's going to cause a conflict. In the first instance, no one cared if the little girl ate the berries. In the second instance, my dd very much cared that someone was eating the cake while she was trying to blow out the candles, so I politely asked him to wait a moment, then I served dd and the little boy.

I work with little kids, so 4 year old behaviour really doesn't bother me most of the time. Also, I think that because I am around a lot of different small children, I have no problem asking them if they could do x,y, or z. I do the same thing around adults.

[GoBecGo]

Re: age appropriate behaviour.

My DD acts like a 3 year old, because she is a 3 year old. When she does annoying things which inconvenience or irritate others (like kicking the back of the seat in front on the bus hard and loud, or shouting songs she learned at home in cafe's at full volume while those around us are trying to eat in relative peace or picking her nose enthusiastically and then doing a loud show and tell with the results to anyone who is within earshot) i stop her. I ask her not to kick the bus seat, not to shout indors and to please stop picking her nose. I explain to her that the old gentlman in front of us doesn't want to ride the bus on a seat being continually kicked, the people at the next table want to hear what one another are saying and no-one but the doctor wants to know about the contents of her nostrils. Is what she is doing normal for a 3 year old? Obviously yes. But i'm not aiming to teach her how to be a 3-year-old, she has a pretty good handle on that, i'm aiming to equip her with all the tools she needs to be 20 or 30 or 57. And i only get about 17 years to do it, and the older she is the less effect i will have (she will believe, quite rightly, that at 13, 15, 17 she is capable of judging situations and modifying her own behaviour accordingly herself), so i'm trying to teach her most of it now.

It is possible if i never said anything about the seat she would one day, aged 4 or 8 or 12 suddenly realise that it was an annoying thing to do and stop doing it, but i'm not going to wait and find out. It's also possible the old gentleman in front will one day turn around and scream into her face to "effing stop it" (i'm in Glasgow, where the c-word is used to mean "him over there" and EVERYone seems to swear every 3rd word) and i'd prefer that didn't happen to her, however effective it might be long term. My observations before and since i've had her is that if parents teach nothing eventually the world steps in to teach and those lessons are often harsher and more final. I have chosen to try to protect her from that and lubricate her way into the world by teaching social niceties and acceptable behaviour from a young age. I do not shout or scream or punish, i just ask her nicely not to do whatever-it-is, explain why not and on we go with our day. To me it is a bit like taking a foreign friend out and about and explaining the local culture to them so they can fit in how they want to.

I know there are some parents who have chosen NOT to say anything about behaviour that is age appropriate, in case doing so causes some unwanted chages in the child and prevents them finding their own inner barriers to modify their behaviour with. To me that doesn't seem a very big risk as i find myself to be a relatively considerate and moral person and i was raised as i am raising DD. I don't assume the consensual method WILL do harm, merely that it's not something i want to do or think will work for my family. I would worry the whole time and hate seeng her behave terribly so she could work out for herself what is appropriate. Besides i have been doing it as i do for so long now that she seeks guidance from me and it'd be rather unfair of me to suddenly withdraw it. I do not see that how we work together has or is harming her so far.

Roar i think to be happy with a child of four who is disrupting a birthday party and let it go on with its disruption merely because it ISN'T biting anyone or throwing a tantrum is scraping the silver lining barrel a bit moe than most would care to. I would expect the ability to refrain from assaulting other guests and wrecking the day for all with a tantrum to be a fairly basic minimum in a 4 year old, and if my 4yo DD DID bit and/or tantrum i would remove her, just as i would correct her if she was eating all the nuts.

[Veronika01]

OP, initially I got my back up and thought your approach was inappropriate, but then I stepped back and realized I was annoyed because of the way the people in my life approached these things. You see, there is one particular mother who feels it is her place to always correct my children. I'll correct them, they'll stop what they're doing or stand there listening to me and she'll just correct them again or talk over me to correct them. So I do take great offense at people correcting my kids, mainly because I do not sit back and let them have free reign. I think you handled it in a very respectful manner, given that her mother didn't physically intervene.

As for the birthday cake, I always make sure that I'm very close to my children when birthday candles are being blown out because I KNOW they just can't resist that temptation. I've even gone so far as to cup my hand over my son's mouth so he couldn't blow out the candle after he kept trying to take puffs at it after repeatedly being told it was not his birthday. What annoys me is that I'll cut the exact piece of cake every child wants when it's time to cut the cake, being that they are invited guests in my house, but at the last 2 parties my son was snubbed when he made the same request. I guess that is a whole other post.

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Or perhaps the host could anticipate that she is have really young children over to her house and put the nuts in little individual cups rather than in an "all you can eat" buffet style....

So a 4 year old who didn't know that she couldn't eat all the nuts out of a big bowl would somehow understand that she couldn't have six or eight or fourteen little cups of nuts? I doubt it. And if her mom wouldn't stop her from eating all the nuts in the serving bowl, I also doubt she would stop her from eating little cup after little cup.

Originally Posted by Roar

Ah, it seems a fairly common theme here with posts on gentle discipline boards that family members assume posters aren't disciplining their kids because they aren't smacking them or yelling at them in the moment. We really have no idea what goes on in the party guests home or what her goals are for her child. She may believe the most important thing is to not embarrass her child publicly or know realize that learning to know the boundaries of her stomach is something she's working on in private and today she needs to have time off to enjoy the party.

I respectfully disagree. I do not think - and I'd assume others may agree - that hitting or yelling are the only ways to discipline. You can redirect or use humor or have a secret signal (my dd1 used to chew with her mouth wide open when she was seven or eight. I made up a signal that only she and I knew - when I scratched my nose, she was reminded to chew with her mouth closed. Worked fine. No embarrassment but it helped her remember to change the behavior.

You are right; we don't know what they may be working on at home. But if the kid behaves outside the social norm, as the host, I'd appreciate a heads up email or call on that - especially if mom is planning on handing me her parenting responsibilities on top of the eight kids/candles/cake/gift writing down for thank yous later/photos I'm already juggling... If mom needs some time off, I'd appreciate if she took it not when I will have to pick up the job. It is rude to assume that everyone else is fine with her child (insert inappropriate behavior here - hitting, grabbing, blowing out someone else's birthday candles, whatever).

And gently and quietly reminding or asking a child to redirect an inappropriate behavior is NOT embarrassing them IMO. It can be done respectfully - and is every day by parents. If that mom doesn't think so or isn't up for the task currently then she should either a) keep her child home or b) send her child with someone who will help him make good choices.

Originally Posted by bronxmom

frequently I feel like people "over discipline" their kids around me and my children. For example, if their toddler is playing with my baby, they'll scold or pull them away at the first sign of non-gentleness. I think it's sad that parents think they need to constantly watch their kids' behavior around others or feel like they face judgment. We are all parents and should know that kids often do unreasonable or difficult or annoying or messy things and be willing to work with that.

aren't their behaviors that are age-appropriate that kids will just grow out of regardless of what their parents "teach" them. For example, isn't it likely that a kid who eats all the peanuts at 4 may very well learn to share and control themselves at 10 without the parents having to "teach" them. Sometimes I think there is this concern that if parents don't step in that kids will just naturally evolve into spoiled, self-centered grown-ups. I tend to take a more positive view of human nature.

I GREATLY appreciated parents who would redirect their toddler if he/she was being too rough with my infant! Why wait until the baby is hurt? I think stopping at the early signs of "too rough" is perfect. It isn't sad and it isn't to keep from facing judgment; it is to protect the baby from getting hurt. I have three kids; I absolutely know that kids often do unreasonable/difficult/annoying/messy things and I am willing to work with that - but not ignore it. It is a parent's JOB to pay attention to that.

Will they eventually grow out of behaviors - sure. But I don't want to be around them while we wait for that to happen. I have zero tolerance for people who won't help their kids make good choices; it makes me mad as I think it is unfair to their child who is then known as the rude/mean/violent kid. I just choose not to be around them.

Originally Posted by The4OfUs

My concern is with an adult who seems to not be teaching their child about being considerate of other party goers - not that a child isn't acting "the way I want them to", not that a child might have a large appetite, not that a child might try to blow out candles or open presents. None of my issue is with the child, or the child's behavior, and I can't believe that after all the posts I've made that that is the conclusion you're coming to. My issue is with a parent not seeming to be teaching their child consideration for others - not that the child would even necessarily listen to them, but that the parent didn't even make the effort beyond "half-heartedly" (quote from the OP) saying something with no further discussion, or doing "nothing" about the candle situation. This is my issue - the parent, NOT.THE.CHILD.

I understand completely! And I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Treasuremapper

The mom just sat chatting, oblivious to the fact that he was doing things like trying to dump cups of lemonade on the birthday cake right before the birthday girl had the chance to blow out the candles. The babysitter had to discreetly tail him during the entire gathering, arms length away, blocking his hands before he hit other kids in the face, threw things into the toilet, or destroyed things.

I avoided them at all times other than the obligatory parties. The problem was not with the little boy, it was with his indifferent mother.

Really sad for that little boy who is avoided and disliked because his mom won't do her job. And angry at the mother for shirking her responsibilities. What is WRONG with people???

Originally Posted by Roar

I think it is really impossible to know the full situation of another family and draw these conclusions. We don't know the baseline this child is starting from - her behavior that looked terrible may actually reflect immense progress because she wasn't having a tantrum or biting someone. We have no idea what her mother is teaching her or what they are working on at the moment. They may have far greater concerns than the nuts or the candles. The mother may know her child best and know she can't absorb information in that setting so making efforts to correct her would be for no reason other than demonstrating she is trying so someone wouldn't trash her behind her back on a message board later.

I think the OP described a mother, her child and herself. They arrived early or first to the party. So it wasn't an overstimulating situation.

Originally Posted by GoBecGo

My DD acts like a 3 year old, because she is a 3 year old. When she does annoying things which inconvenience or irritate others (like kicking the back of the seat in front on the bus hard and loud, or shouting songs she learned at home in cafe's at full volume while those around us are trying to eat in relative peace or picking her nose enthusiastically and then doing a loud show and tell with the results to anyone who is within earshot) i stop her. I ask her not to kick the bus seat, not to shout indors and to please stop picking her nose. I explain to her that the old gentlman in front of us doesn't want to ride the bus on a seat being continually kicked, the people at the next table want to hear what one another are saying and no-one but the doctor wants to know about the contents of her nostrils. Is what she is doing normal for a 3 year old? Obviously yes. But i'm not aiming to teach her how to be a 3-year-old, she has a pretty good handle on that, i'm aiming to equip her with all the tools she needs to be 20 or 30 or 57. And i only get about 17 years to do it, and the older she is the less effect i will have (she will believe, quite rightly, that at 13, 15, 17 she is capable of judging situations and modifying her own behaviour accordingly herself), so i'm trying to teach her most of it now.

It is possible if i never said anything about the seat she would one day, aged 4 or 8 or 12 suddenly realise that it was an annoying thing to do and stop doing it, but i'm not going to wait and find out. It's also possible the old gentleman in front will one day turn around and scream into her face to "effing stop it" and i'd prefer that didn't happen to her, however effective it might be long term. My observations before and since i've had her is that if parents teach nothing eventually the world steps in to teach and those lessons are often harsher and more final. I have chosen to try to protect her from that and lubricate her way into the world by teaching social niceties and acceptable behaviour from a young age. I do not shout or scream or punish, i just ask her nicely not to do whatever-it-is, explain why not and on we go with our day.

I know there are some parents who have chosen NOT to say anything about behaviour that is age appropriate, in case doing so causes some unwanted chages in the child and prevents them finding their own inner barriers to modify their behaviour with. To me that doesn't seem a very big risk as i find myself to be a relatively considerate and moral person and i was raised as i am raising DD.

You are my new favorite!!