Months of supplements, but still pink beet urine. Help!

[Nosy]

We've given DS various supplements over time to help increase HCl. We've done cultured food before meals, Swedish bitters, vinegar, probiotics & zinc. However, his urine is still dark pink after eating beets. I will say that the zinc seems to have helped something and has helped him put on a little weight, but the fact that he is still underweight and having pink urine makes me think he's still not absorbing the way he should. He's GFCF, also.

[deditus]

Have you tried enzymes? They have helped us the most. Dd still sometimes gets pink pee, but not as dark and it doesn't last for multiple pees like it did before. We have used Houston Enzymes chewables and we are trying Klaire Labs as a more general purpose enzyme.

[Nosy]

We did them for a while but it was before I knew specifically about the HCl issue. I'll have to try them again.

Thanks!

[lil_miss_understood]

how's his b12? sorry for throwing another supp at you but...

[mamafish9]

what kind of zinc are you supping, how much, and how many times a day?

[Nosy]

How can I evaluate whether he needs B12? We've supplemented with it before, but like everything else, when I didn't notice a difference I quit giving it to him. Maybe I didn't give him enough.

He's taking Kirkland zinc (glutanate, I think) once a day 20 mg.

[elanorh]

Can someone please explain the pink beet urine question? Isn't urine supposed to be a little pink after you eat beets??

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Can someone please explain the pink beet urine question? Isn't urine supposed to be a little pink after you eat beets??

no. if it is, it's indicative of low HCl and therefor possibly zinc deficiency.

[elanorh]

Hmm, I'd be shocked if I were zinc deficient, given that my diet is solid for whole grains, beef, etc. (good zinc sources) in addition to the fact that I take zinc lozenges whenever I think I've got a cold coming on .....

Can anything else impact HCl production as well? And what does this mean in terms of leaky gut or allergies or etc.? I'm not familiar with this at all (JacquelineR, I think you asked on a different forum here what I didn't know, I think we've found something. )??

[lil_miss_understood]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Hmm, I'd be shocked if I were zinc deficient, given that my diet is solid for whole grains, beef, etc. (good zinc sources) in addition to the fact that I take zinc lozenges whenever I think I've got a cold coming on .....

Can anything else impact HCl production as well? And what does this mean in terms of leaky gut or allergies or etc.? I'm not familiar with this at all (JacquelineR, I think you asked on a different forum here what I didn't know, I think we've found something. )??

I believe there a few nutrient deficiencies which can be blamed but zinc seems to be the main one. I believe there's also the possibility that a lack of production of certain enzymes can decrease production of HCl. I'm not completely together right now- it's been a very long week or so and my memory's kind of failing me but this is what I'm remembering right now... Hopefully another mama will jump in here and fill in gaps and/or correct anything I might get wrong here.
In terms of leaky gut and so forth, if you're not producing enough HCl you won't be digesting properly so improperly digested food proteins will pass into the intestines, causing damage and being released into the blood stream and from there into milk if you're nursing. Once the undigested proteins are in the blood, since they're not supposed to be in the blood, the body (rightfully) sees them as foreign proteins and sends antibodies out against them causing a reaction. So the idea is, if you increase HCl, your food is digested more fully before passing to the intestines. The better it's digested in the stomach, the less likely that it will cause damage to the intestines. The less damage being caused to the intestines, the fewer proteins passing into the blood stream and the fewer reactions. This also allows for the gut healing measures which *should* be implemented while trying to heal from intolerances to actually work their magic and heal the intestines...
I hope that makes sense.
And yes, I did say that. You're so knowledgeable on so many topics!

ETA: Oh yes! And also, if you address the low HCl, the food proteins are also then not making it into your milk and therefor any nurslings you may have are no longer being exposed to food proteins besides breastmilk.

[mamafish9]

Just eating enough zinc isn't always enough to prevent zinc deficiency - you have to absorb it. Whole grains often have phytates that prevent mineral absorption, and several heavy metals (cadmium in particular) can mess with zinc absorbtion. Also, if you have a metals load, that can use up a LOT of zinc in your body, and the RDA isn't close to enough.

ETA: Nosy, if that much zinc hasn't cleared the pink pee, a couple ideas - 1) try spreading the zinc into 3-4 doses a day, ideally apart from food, to increase absorption. 2) Do a hair test to see if you are dealing with metals issues. I had this problem with magnesium - no matter how much I put in my son, he still seemed to have low magnesium symptoms. Turns out he has really high antimony (from flame retardants in his bed), and antimony messes with the body's ability to use magnesium. So until we deal with his antimony issue, even with supping a lot of magnesium, he's still going to have some low mag symptoms. Cadmium can do the same for zinc, not sure what others.

[crunchy_mama]

Can I ask a question about the stomach acid issue? Can one have low HCl and not fail the beet test? I have a friend I am trying to help who seems to have signs of HCl but as far as I know passes the beet test- -I need to double check though.

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

Can I ask a question about the stomach acid issue? Can one have low HCl and not fail the beet test? I have a friend I am trying to help who seems to have signs of HCl but as far as I know passes the beet test- -I need to double check though.

I think the conclusion around here has been that a fail is definitely a problem, but a pass doesn't mean you're clear, if that makes sense. If you eat beets with oxalates, for example (e.g. the beet greens), then often you won't get pink pee, even if you have low stomach acid. And there are some other ways too, I just can't remember what they are .

[crunchy_mama]

Makes sense- I know we didn't have the beets w/ the greens yesterday but not sure how she usually has them. I made us a kale/beet/carrot/ginger/lemon/celery juice- I cannot remember the oxalate content of kale- iirc it is certainly lower than something like spinach, but I don't know exact amounts.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by elanorh

Hmm, I'd be shocked if I were zinc deficient, given that my diet is solid for whole grains, beef, etc. (good zinc sources) in addition to the fact that I take zinc lozenges whenever I think I've got a cold coming on .....

Can anything else impact HCl production as well? And what does this mean in terms of leaky gut or allergies or etc.? I'm not familiar with this at all (JacquelineR, I think you asked on a different forum here what I didn't know, I think we've found something. )??

Yeah, you need enough HCl to release the zinc from foods so that it can be absorbed, so it's possible to get stuck with foods alone.

Oh, and if there's reflux too, my *guess* is that low gastrin might be an issue, and to check thyroid (and other stuff I don't know)

I've been playing with another angle lately - there are a couple of variables at work with stomach acid and beet pee - you need enough stomach acid in contact ith the food for long enough to do it's job. So I'm thinking stomach motility (how fast/slow your stomach empties) is probably a pretty important variable as well. I forget what all affects stomach motility. The first things I'd look at are dopamine, then thyroid and serotonin.

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

Can I ask a question about the stomach acid issue? Can one have low HCl and not fail the beet test? I have a friend I am trying to help who seems to have signs of HCl but as far as I know passes the beet test- -I need to double check though.

Passing the beet test just means that the pigment isn't making it into the bloodstream - which might mean it's still there but isn't being absorbed (no leaky gut? combo of other foods?) or that it's been denatured/digested already. The link with oxalates I'd heard was that oxalates preserve the color to the colon. Calcium binds to oxalates so they wouldn't make it to the colon, and some gut bacteria can break down oxalates as well. Iron is supposed to be a factor in preserving the color as well, but I don't know the connection.

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by whoMe

Yeah, you need enough HCl to release the zinc from foods so that it can be absorbed, so it's possible to get stuck with foods alone.

Oh, and if there's reflux too, my *guess* is that low gastrin might be an issue, and to check thyroid (and other stuff I don't know)

I've been playing with another angle lately - there are a couple of variables at work with stomach acid and beet pee - you need enough stomach acid in contact ith the food for long enough to do it's job. So I'm thinking stomach motility (how fast/slow your stomach empties) is probably a pretty important variable as well. I forget what all affects stomach motility. The first things I'd look at are dopamine, then thyroid and serotonin.


Passing the beet test just means that the pigment isn't making it into the bloodstream - which might mean it's still there but isn't being absorbed (no leaky gut? combo of other foods?) or that it's been denatured/digested already. The link with oxalates I'd heard was that oxalates preserve the color to the colon. Calcium binds to oxalates so they wouldn't make it to the colon, and some gut bacteria can break down oxalates as well. Iron is supposed to be a factor in preserving the color as well, but I don't know the connection.

REading what you are saying there it sounds like your thoughts if the stomach motility is fast than it would be less likely to be pink- am I understanding that correctly. I know her diet is very, very high calcium and low magnesium as I have been trying to help her balance that out. She seems to not be absorbing anything well- I don't believe she has all of her triggers out for one thing.

[Theloose]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

REading what you are saying there it sounds like your thoughts if the stomach motility is fast than it would be less likely to be pink- am I understanding that correctly. I know her diet is very, very high calcium and low magnesium as I have been trying to help her balance that out. She seems to not be absorbing anything well- I don't believe she has all of her triggers out for one thing.

No, I'm saying that if the stomach empties too quickly, then the HCl won't have a chance to finish it's job. I'm thinking that that may be part of my lack of beet pee - okay-ish zinc, but slow stomach emptying results in no morebeet pigment.

If she's getting lots of calcium with the beets, then chances are (I'm guessing) oxalates aren't likely responsible for preserving the color to the colon.

[Theloose]

More on stomach emptying (gastric motility):
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l473620340805475/
looks like high blood sugar and dietary fat slow it down, and dopamine speeds it up. Serotonin receptors play a big role as well, but I'm not teasing that one out very well right now.

[mamafish9]

I just read that vites B6 and B1 are needed for stomach acid production as well...

[Nosy]

Originally Posted by mamafish9

ETA: Nosy, if that much zinc hasn't cleared the pink pee, a couple ideas - 1) try spreading the zinc into 3-4 doses a day, ideally apart from food, to increase absorption. 2) Do a hair test to see if you are dealing with metals issues. I had this problem with magnesium - no matter how much I put in my son, he still seemed to have low magnesium symptoms. Turns out he has really high antimony (from flame retardants in his bed), and antimony messes with the body's ability to use magnesium. So until we deal with his antimony issue, even with supping a lot of magnesium, he's still going to have some low mag symptoms. Cadmium can do the same for zinc, not sure what others.

Thanks, I have ordered a hair test for him but it hasn't arrived yet. He still has pink pee but his appetite is better and he has gained some weight after starting molybdenum with the zinc.