Sharing/turn taking in community places

[CyclingMom]

I've searched the forum and found plenty of threads on sharing in ones home, but didn't find anything about sharing in public places.

What do you think about sharing in places like:

a) the playground: you're child has been swinging on the swing for some time and suddenly there are several other kids waiting for a turn. Do you making your kid get off and "force" sharing or do you make the other kids wait until your child is done?

b) a science center or children's museum: there is a exhibit that kids can play with, but the venue is crowded and other kids want to do what your child is doing. What if your child wants to play with something for 1 hour? Is that just tough luck for the other kids? How long is too long, I guess?

c)children's museum: a big doll house - there was a little girl playing with it and my daughter joined in. The other little girl who was already playing with it told my daughter that she couldn't play with it, too. (We're talking a two story, ~10 room wooden doll house that had open sides so that it could be played with from 3 different directions--it was placed against a wall and therefore 1 side was inaccessible).

In instance a) I have let my daughter swing for a few more minutes and then suggested that we do something else. Fortunately, she's pretty easy going and willingly got off the swing. Instance b) I would have let my daughter thoroughly examine the exhibit and then suggest she move on. I would not have let her linger though with others waiting. c) I told the other little girl that the doll house was for everyone and told my daughter that she was, in fact, allowed to play with it. She glared at me, played for a few more minutes and then left.

I'm curious what the general consensus is or if there even is one. I understand the "no forced sharing" at home, but what about when the property doesn't belong to one specific person? My kids are pretty easy going and if I suggest that they share a toy with someone, they generally do. When they were younger, I always had them put away anything they didn't want to share before guests arrived and let them know that if someone was left out, it was fair game for others to use (which is somewhat different than forced turn taking)

[butterfly_mommy]

Originally Posted by CyclingMom

In instance a) I have let my daughter swing for a few more minutes and then suggested that we do something else. Fortunately, she's pretty easy going and willingly got off the swing. Instance b) I would have let my daughter thoroughly examine the exhibit and then suggest she move on. I would not have let her linger though with others waiting. c) I told the other little girl that the doll house was for everyone and told my daughter that she was, in fact, allowed to play with it. She glared at me, played for a few more minutes and then left.

I would have most likely have done the same in the situations described. It is very challenging. Also if we were somewhere that was busy and DS was really into an exhibit I would try to come back with him at a time that wasn't so busy so he could have more time to explore it. In situation C) I also might have asked the other girl to let me or DD know when she could have a turn or when she was ready to have DD play with her

[NiteNicole]

In instance a) I have let my daughter swing for a few more minutes and then suggested that we do something else. Fortunately, she's pretty easy going and willingly got off the swing. Instance b) I would have let my daughter thoroughly examine the exhibit and then suggest she move on. I would not have let her linger though with others waiting. c) I told the other little girl that the doll house was for everyone and told my daughter that she was, in fact, allowed to play with it. She glared at me, played for a few more minutes and then left.

A. I'd hustle my daughter on to the next thing.

B. I'd let my daughter check something out for a reasonable amount of time but an hour is not reasonable. Again, I'd move her on to the next thing. I think I can get a good idea of how long something takes to really check it out and how long the people before us lingered and that would be my "reasonable amount of time."

C. I'd tell the little girl that it's for everyone and we would wait a few more minutes, then DD was going to play AS WELL. She (the other little girl) could decide if she wanted to continue or move on.

I really REALLY dislike when people act like their child and their child's wants are the only things that matter in the whole world. I hope I'm bringing up my daughter with reasonable ideas about how people behave in a community and being considerate of others and compassionate to their needs and these lessons start on the playground. Usually the attitude I get (and got yesterday, thanks Bike Dad With Latte) from those kinds of parents is - You can't make me. You can't make me get my kid to share, what are you going to do about it? And that's the same attitude I get from the kid. That's not the kid I want to raise.

[ChetMC]

Sharing in Public

Swings at the Playground - while DD continued swinging for the next few minutes I would have tried to get her interested in something else, if she was resisting, I would have pointed out that other kids were waiting, and mentioned that waiting isn't very fun. Basically, we would have had a few more swings and then moved on.

Museum Exhibit - allow an amount of time that is reasonable for the child to examine and explore the exhibit and then encourage her to move on, point out there are lots of other things to see and do, etc.

Dollhouse - my belief is that it's more important to teach kids to respect the feelings of others than to demand that the universe to a fair and equal place. DH and I want to teach our kids to try and be fair, but not to expect fair, if that makes sense. I would have told DD that this little girl wanted to be alone, and we would use the dollhouse later. And when we were out of earshot of the little girl I would have mentioned to DD that while it is okay to need time alone, the little girl should have said it in a nicer way. I might mention too that it's very hard for some kids to share, and talked a bit about how it feels when somebody won't share with you, etc.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Swings at the Playground - It seems to be consistently applied in our area that for most things, the child can continue as long as they want, and there is no arbitrary limit placed on the child. "When she's done having her turn, it will be yours" is what is implemented at preschool and out in the community.

Museum Exhibit - this is different from the swings, I realize the distinction is hard to figure out sometimes, but I would put waiting in line for an exhibit more along the lines of waiting in line to visit Santa Claus. There is an implied time limit, and after a few minutes, I'd be encouraging DD to move on to the next thing.

Public Dollhouse - No child should be allowed sole access to a toy that can accomodate more than one child. If it gets to the point where no more children can reasonably fit, then I think this fits more in with the swings - its the child's turn until the child is done with their turn. But if there's an obvious line, like in the museum exhibit, then the museum employees should suggest a time limit (at our children's museum, there is only one computer playing Freddie the Fish; its a popular item, and there is a sign up saying ten minutes per child when there are children waiting, and a clock above on the wall).

[LynnS6]

I would do pretty much as you have done. I try to teach my children that in public spaces, everyone should get a turn. I would definitely have told the little girl at the doll house that it belongs to everyone and that more than one person can play. I've told my children the same.

This sort of situation has been a problem in the past, because my kids appear to have relatively long attention spans, and so the time that it takes them to thoroughly explore something is longer than other kids take. I remember getting yelled at once by another mom, because my kids were exploring a tractor at the local zoo. My kids had waited a long time (10-15 minutes) to be able to get on the tractor seat because the kids before them were taking a long time (there were 3-4 of them, so it wasn't any one kid's fault). I saw that there were other kids waiting, and so when ds climbed up, I said "OK hon, 3 minutes and then it's time to let someone else have a turn." I know for a fact that ds would have spent 30 minutes up there, if I'd let him. The other mom exploded. "Three minutes, that's FAR too long!"

I guess my point is that no matter what you do in this type of situation, you can't please everyone.

[wondertwins]

The preschool I taught at adopted much of Becky Bailey's philosophies, and her ideas about sharing/turn taking still resonate with me and I use them with my twins. So, for the first two scenarios, I would simply point out to DD or DS that there were other children waiting for a turn. It's amazing to me how even two-year-olds get this concept, and maybe it has a bit to do with being in control of the situation (being able to give something to someone), but they consistently end their "turn" sooner than if there was no one waiting.

For the third scenario I'd have to have a better read on the situation. My niece (an only child) is very into solitary play and spreads her games throughout her house, and my LO's have to play around her. Maybe because we're accustomed to accommodating her I can see how one little girl could take up an entire doll house. Actually if the little girl started off being a bit rude toward DD, I would suggest doing something else until the house was free. DD is the type of child who will tries to placate others, and if the other girl continued being rude, and DD was overly giving, it would drive ME crazy!

[terrabella]

Originally Posted by CyclingMom

In instance a) I have let my daughter swing for a few more minutes and then suggested that we do something else. Fortunately, she's pretty easy going and willingly got off the swing. Instance b) I would have let my daughter thoroughly examine the exhibit and then suggest she move on. I would not have let her linger though with others waiting. c) I told the other little girl that the doll house was for everyone and told my daughter that she was, in fact, allowed to play with it. She glared at me, played for a few more minutes and then left.

It really depends on the situation is. If it's something that my kids do often, then I help them to step aside for the other kids.

But if it's a rare treat, for example, we just took the kids to the zoo for the first time in five years. My four year old's first trip. It was her birthday present. I didn't ask them to step aside for *anyone*.

I should perhaps say, that my kids are polite and well behaved, and share happily, so I wasn't one of those people walking through the zoo with little crazed flying monkeys, shoving and screaming.

[CyclingMom]

Thanks so much for the replies! It's interesting to see what others would do in the same situation.

I feel like it's a balance between producing a polite, kind child without having my child always being the one who is giving into others wishes.

[ChetMC]

Why?

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie

No child should be allowed sole access to a toy that can accommodate more than one child.

Why? Some kids are naturally good at sharing and having other kids in their personal space. Some aren't. Is it any more fair that only the kids who are good with crowds and interactive play get to use the dollhouse? The kind of play a child does with a dollhouse can be somewhat private, and it can be asking a lot for some kids to play with a strange child sitting right next to them.

I'm not suggesting that a massive play structure be cleared for the child who likes to play alone. And yeah, it would have been nice if the little girl at the dollhouse had been polite and asked nicely for a few more minutes alone, or if a parent had been there to try and help her to share or move on to something else. But in the long run, I'm not sure that having your mom or dad enforce "fairness" on your behalf really helps a child learn to navigate social situations.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by ChetMC

Why? Some kids are naturally good at sharing and having other kids in their personal space. Some aren't. Is it any more fair that only the kids who are good with crowds and interactive play get to use the dollhouse? The kind of play a child does with a dollhouse can be somewhat private, and it can be asking a lot for some kids to play with a strange child sitting right next to them.

Well, I didn't really think it through, it was just my first thought.

The only time I've seen kids demand exclusivity was when they were doing it for control over others. At preschool, its a common issue, and the common refrain is "no one is excluded." So the rule I have in my head is if its meant to be used by more than one child, no child is allowed to exclude others.

My DD is so social, it didn't occur to me that there might be children who want to play with something all by themselves for reasons other than control. DD will occasionally say, "No, HE can't play!" and when she does, it has nothing to do with a desire to play by herself and more to do with a desire to have power over who gets to play and who doesn't. So for DD, I would intervene if I saw that happening with a dollhouse at the museum.

I don't know that there is a single rule that can be applied towards all children, but I guess I would still lean towards "if its a public toy meant to be shared with others then exclusion is discouraged." I think this is in part because if one child is allowed to be exclusive, my DD would happily assume that she could be, too.

You're right that perhaps a dollhouse is more suited for exclusionary play than, say, a slide. But I would find it hard myself sometimes to determine which is what. And I would expect that when I decide that exclusionary play is okay for my child in a particular situation there would be a majority of parents waiting for their child's turn that disagree. I'm not saying that its ethically right in all cases to not allow exclusivity, but that in the interest of social norms it might be better to teach that public things are meant for non-exclusionary play, as a general rule.

[CyclingMom]

Pretty much all of the experience that I have with the "I don't want you to play this with me" behavior is controlling. I'm certainly not saying all kids do that, but of all the kids that I know personally (not a random child that I might see in a museum, etc) never seem to want to play alone when the alternative of playing with another child is offerred. Of course that also could be because they know each other rather than being strangers.

It is a tough call. I hadn't really thought of ChetMC's point, but it is a valid one.

[EviesMom]

Originally Posted by ChetMC

Why? Some kids are naturally good at sharing and having other kids in their personal space. Some aren't. Is it any more fair that only the kids who are good with crowds and interactive play get to use the dollhouse? The kind of play a child does with a dollhouse can be somewhat private, and it can be asking a lot for some kids to play with a strange child sitting right next to them.

Actually, I have a child who is highly introverted and shy. We sometimes arrange schedules for quiet times when she can be the only kid in the playground. But, in a public space, the items are for public use. You can't realistically expect to have sole use of it for an extended period of time, especially if others are waiting. If you really want to play with a dollhouse alone... or sit in front of a painting alone... or sit in an empty coffeeshop with no one at surrounding tables... you basically have to set that up for yourself by going when no one else is there or by recreating it in some way in a private space. So, yeah, "kids who are good with crowds and interactive play" are the ones who get more enjoyment out of crowded museums and places. That is logical, isn't it?

[ChetMC]

Coffee Shop Analogy

Originally Posted by EviesMom

Actually, I have a child who is highly introverted and shy. We sometimes arrange schedules for quiet times when she can be the only kid in the playground. But, in a public space, the items are for public use. You can't realistically expect to have sole use of it for an extended period of time, especially if others are waiting. If you really want to play with a dollhouse alone... or sit in front of a painting alone... or sit in an empty coffeeshop with no one at surrounding tables... you basically have to set that up for yourself by going when no one else is there or by recreating it in some way in a private space. So, yeah, "kids who are good with crowds and interactive play" are the ones who get more enjoyment out of crowded museums and places. That is logical, isn't it?

All I'm saying is that it's nice when parents attempt to be sensitive to the other child and teach their children to do the same. Because some kids have trouble with "the rules" doesn't make them bad kids... just kids who might need a little more time, or a little more patience, or negotiation, or whatever.

As a parent of a shy or introverted child it's wonderful that you recognize it may be difficult or unrealistic for your child to have a lot of space in certain situations. At the same time though, it's nice when other parents respect that something like sharing a dollhouse is just more difficult for some children than for others. Dollhouses often foster a type of intimate fantasy play. It can be tough when your doing your own thing and a kid you've never met wants a piece of the action, or wants to come in and put their own twist on things.

Really, it's interesting that people expect things from children they would never expect from adults. Adults give each other a certain amount of space. Most adults are okay in a crowded coffee shop, but they don't expect a single person sitting at a table for two to share their table with a stranger and make casual conversation. Some people do that sort of thing, but it's not expected. Baristas don't come out from behind the counter and tell single people at tables for two that they MUST share their table. I think that's a more accurate coffee shop comparison to the dollhouse situation than expecting to have a coffee shop or museum all to yourself.

[Hazelnut]

Yes I pretty much "force" my child to share in public places like the children's museums or the park. This is actually one of my pet peeves-- I have often been surprised how many parents there seem to be kind of pushy on behalf of their child. I feel like I'm, if anything, being kind of pushy in just forcing my kid to share. But when others don't return the favor, it sends them such a bad message! So I know what you mean there. I always hate to be rude (or feel rude) in public, so I tend to err on the "let's share and be polite" score. But I know my mom was so aggressive about forcing me to share and be polite as a kid it made me feel disrespected, for lack of a better word. So I think it can definitely get taken too far.

The only time I don't push it is if my son has waited a long time for a turn, and the second he gets on someone asks if they can have a turn. I think people forget that part of sharing is waiting a turn.

And I do think adults do that. If I'm browsing at a bookstore, I don't expect someone to get out of my way, but I do have a reasonable expectation that we can perhaps both browse a magazine rack at the same time. I don't agree with the barista ex. b/c in general I don't follow direct child--> adult comparisons. The barista is not my parent guiding me through social situations.

[ChetMC]

Originally Posted by Hazelnut

And I do think adults do that. If I'm browsing at a bookstore, I don't expect someone to get out of my way, but I do have a reasonable expectation that we can perhaps both browse a magazine rack at the same time. I don't agree with the barista ex. b/c in general I don't follow direct child--> adult comparisons. The barista is not my parent guiding me through social situations.

I think this comes down to whether or not you consider a dollhouse to be a reasonable lone activity... or maybe a debate about whether all activities MUST accommodate the maximum number of children irregardless of how the participating children feel about that.

Some public items are obviously intended for a large number of kids... like a play structure with a 20 or 40 child capacity. Some items are only usable by one person at a time... like the bike you pedal at the science centre to make a light bulb come on. And some fall in between. In my mind, I can understand why a child might want to use a dollhouse alone. Even a large dollhouse requires two children who don't know each other to play in confined space.

Really, what's wrong with asking the child who is playing if you may join them, and if they say no, suggesting that they finish up soon so somebody else may have a turn? What's wrong with giving a kid two minutes to finish up what they're doing and gently reminding that others are waiting? Or what's wrong with visiting the exhibit next to the dollhouse while you wait for it to open up, or for it to be visited by a child who is more open to sharing?

I agree that it isn't necessarily reasonable to draw the adult child comparisons in all situations. I only continued with that line of reasoning because EviesMom brought it coffee shops and things.

I do however, think it's interesting that people often expect children to share space and materials to a degree that few adults would expect or demand of each other. Even if a barista wouldn't come out from behind the counter and force a single person to share a two person table, the patrons don't expect it either. We respect that two strangers may not want to sit together and chat, but don't respect that two children unknown to each other may not wish to play an imaginative game together.

[Hazelnut]

I don't think the expectation is any different. From what I gather, no one is expecting them to interact or play together. They are merely being expected to share a public structure that presumably has room for more than 1-2 kids.- just like I would share a large table at a coffee shop.

[elizawill]

my kids are 8 & 5, so i expect them to share and take turns in public places. they are very good about this now, but when they were younger, i i had to help with transitioning. as for the swing, we certainly wouldn't get off immediately - but if my child had been swinging for quite sometime and several children were waiting - then yes, we'd move on within a few minutes. the lesson for my children involves consideration though. i wouldn't expect my child to give something up without a fair turn (or just because some child wants it *now*), but i do want them to understand others deserve the same opportunity to play, swing, slide, (what have you) and taking turns is a fair way to ensure everyone gets that opportunity. my kids are considerate of others now, and i do feel that is something my dh & i helped teach them. as for the doll house, yes, i would expect my child to share, especially if it clearly can be played with by more than one child. i understand this is difficult for some children, but i think the parent should help the child in that situation. it seems unreasonable to let only one child monopolize a huge dollhouse, or train track, or lego set, etc. in a public museum. when my kids were younger, i would help them share by playing alongside them, etc. hth.

[InMediasRes]

I agree with most of what has been said here. My DS is having a hard time with this now because our neighbor kids are always outside unsupervised, which means no parent to enforce sharing. If DS wants a turn with the bike they are all sharing, and he asks politely, the other kids say "no". After I ask them again, they still say no. I wouldn't just go take something from the kid to enforce sharing. I tell DS that sometimes people don't want to share and maybe he should try again in a few minutes, then I try to redirect the other kids to something else so DS can have a turn. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't. Like ChetMC said, I wouldn't expect an adult to share something with me if they didn't want to. And I have to teach my DS that just because you ask doesn't mean you have free reign to take.

[IntrovertExtrovert]

It depends on the space and how well I know the other kids. At my son's school, the rule is that as long as you're holding it, you're using it. Other kids are free to ask for a turn, and you're free to keep using it as long as you want.

When we're in public places I try to stick to that rule as much as possible, but if there are other kids waiting I do try to encourage him to move on to something else after a few minutes or a few uses/cycles/whatever. I tell my son that when other people are waiting we finish our turn a little faster so that others can have a turn, too. It depends on how popular something is and how common/available it is, too. If we're in the children's museum and there's a huge crowd of kids who all want to play with the only coin funnel, I'm more likely to ask him to finish his turn than if we're at the park and one other kid wants to use the particular monkey bars he's using, yk?

Situation a) if there were no other swings at the park I'd encourage him to move on to something else, but I wouldn't push it.

Situation b) if the exhibit had cycles or a path that you moved through, I would let him do a couple of cycles then encourage him to move on or get back in line to do it again.

Situation c) I would do just what you did--tell the girl that it was for everyone and let my kid play with the dollhouse too.