Are there Christians who don't believe in the power of prayer??

[Savoir Faire]

Long story short: (Isn't that what all these topics are about, ), I was Catholic until age ten. My parents divorced and my mom married a southern baptist. From then on, I was raised as a baptist. From time to time, I attended nondenominational churches.

I've been struggling with my spiritual side for awhile. I've had troubles figuring out a denomination and where I fit in with this religion thing.

You see, I finally figured out that I don't believe in the power of prayer. Personally, I believe that if God knew us since before we were ever born, and he knows all our days, then my praying to him to keep someone alive/answer a prayer is almost useless.

Not only do I believe it is useless, but unless it is a prayer of thanksgiving or reverence, then the prayers are almost an insult to God...as in our way is better than his.

Maybe that's why I don't struggle with the idea of bad in the world or why bad things happen to good people; I just believe that good and bad will happen to all of us.

While someone may be on their deathbed, I might selfishly pray for them not to die, but I believe it is GOD'S WILL, not my prayers, that will save that person.

I went to visit yet another church today with a friend. We really enjoyed the Bible study-- which was for parents of young children, and enjoyed meeting other people. We left before the service. My husband and I both agree that we don't get anything out of the worship services. I'm not a praise and worship band type of gal....and that's the kind of churches we keep attending.

I honestly want to feel part of a community. I want my children to grow up believing in God...but I just don't know how I'm feeling with so much of the theology these days.

I don't think I could start to not-believe as I do believe in God and Jesus and I can't reverse what I know. But I do feel as if I did not believe as an adult, I probably would not start.

I'm so confused. I want to belong to a community...but where would I go from here?

[genifer]

I dont know or understand why you dont believe in the power of prayer when you believe in Jesus, and even Jesus prayed to His Father. I find prayer to be an integral part of my christian life. I guess I dont want to try to convince you or anything like that...


hmmm. Im sure you will find something here to tickle your fancy tho. There's all sorts of christians, Ive come to understand. But prayer is essential to our relationship with God. In my experience, He's revealed His will to me and I work with Him, changing my heart in the process, humbling myself, submitting to His will. Prayer is how I know His will for me, and His love for me. I hear Him wisper 'I love you Gen', and all sorts to my spirit when Im praying. And prayer *is* powerful. I dont understand how it works always but I know that it is.

I hope you find what you're looking for, but more importantly I honestly do hope you might discover how wonderful *and* powerful prayer really is. And I dont mean for selfish reasons either. I mean for direction, for instruction, for conviction, for the joy of it, peace in the storms of life.

Hugs anyway!

gen

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

You see, I finally figured out that I don't believe in the power of prayer. Personally, I believe that if God knew us since before we were ever born, and he knows all our days, then my praying to him to keep someone alive/answer a prayer is almost useless.

Not only do I believe it is useless, but unless it is a prayer of thanksgiving or reverence, then the prayers are almost an insult to God...as in our way is better than his.

Maybe that's why I don't struggle with the idea of bad in the world or why bad things happen to good people; I just believe that good and bad will happen to all of us.

While someone may be on their deathbed, I might selfishly pray for them not to die, but I believe it is GOD'S WILL, not my prayers, that will save that person.

This is pretty much how I feel. I think prayers of thanksgiving and reverence are good and important, but the whole "power of prayer" thing where people believe that if they pray hard enough they will get results seems a bit...well, it doesn't line up with my understanding of Christianity.

[HisBeautifulWife]

I think it makes it hard when people label themselves as Christians, but then go looking for a religion instead of a relationship with Jesus.

As for prayer, I believe in it. But that doesn't mean that I expect to get everything I pray for. I pray with the understanding that God's will is going to take place.

I ask for what I want with the understanding that He knows best and I know very little.

So praying is not incompatible with understanding that God's will determines the outcome.

I hope you find the Truth you seek.

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

I've been struggling with my spiritual side for awhile. I've had troubles figuring out a denomination and where I fit in with this religion thing.

[tayndrewsmama]

I believe that God gave us the gifts we need to help ourselves, not to ask for him to fix things for us.

[Savoir Faire]

To answer the two questions, in order.

I'm thinking of this verse in Matthew:

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

I believe God provides for us. I believe in his will and that he knows best. (As seen above.) My view of prayers is of just asking...and especially those done in public places, and not much listening.

I have had God speak to me without prayer. It might be considered meditation, though that wasn't what I was trying to do, either. I can remember several instances where I was being quiet and contemplating something when words were spoken into my head. They weren't answers to a prayer, or anything like that, but more of a thought. I know it was God; it was a thought that would definitely be out of my normal thought process, and it made sense.


About looking for religion rather than a relationship...I would think many would say finding a church home and community is important as a believer. If you are trying to find a church home, you are participating in organized religion. It is important, when trying to find a community of believers, that you agree with their way of thinking...for example, we decided not to visit a church where they decreed that women could not serve in the church.

So, if I'm not wanting to ask for things (IE, health, wealth or whatever)...is it more of a meditation thing?

[lilyka]

i think God likes it when we ask him for stuff. as a parent there are things I could do for my children but don't. i wait for them to ask.. sometimes they do, sometimes they figure out a way to make it work. sometimes the give up. Sometimes I give up and intervene sometimes I don't. perhaps God is the same way with prayer.

i do think it is ok to stick with being thankful and giving reverance. That is first and foremost in my prayer life. Also don't forget repentance and seeking victory over sin in your life. I also pray for God to protect people, bring healing and comfort to the sick, have mercy on people and that ultimately His will be done.

there is a lot of ground to cover in prayer. if you really think it is silly or insulting to pray for a specific outcome just pray Gods will be done, pray that he will give someone strength as they go through trails if that is Gods will for them, pray that he will be merciful to them.

Have you considered using a prayer book? I really like this one http://www.conciliarpress.com/books/...nyl-cover.html

Also if you are not a praise and worship band kind of girl why are you still going to that kind of church. Perhaps you would be happier somewhere that serves a traditional liturgy such as an Orthodox church or Catholic church.

[hotmamacita]

SF - I understand your concerns and respect your insights. I agree with some of your points.

Personally, I find that prayer is like a dialogue in a relationship. I, too, bristle at the public prayer some feel they need to display.

I have to say that I found myself wishing that I knew you IRL. I would love to sit down with you and talk in person.

[AbigailGrace]

I think you have an honest question. I think you are on a journey of sorts.

I was raised Catholic. I moved in with my grandmother my senior year of high school and decided to start going to church with her... a Baptist church. That's where and when I found Jesus.

Since then, I have been in and out non-denominational churches.

To answer your question: Yes, there are Christians who don't believe in the power of prayer. However, I am not one of them. Do I understand why every prayer doesn't get answered? No. I do not. And I don't believe there is a formula anyone can follow to "get" their prayer answered. Do I believe that everyone who says they will pray for you, do so? Uhhh, no! So my 'beef' is this... I believe in prayer, but not the majority of people who say they do the praying.

But dig into the Bible and it clearly says prayers are answered. And you will find scripture after scripture encouraging us to pray. You can't agree with some scriptures and just throw the others out.

I mean, what's the point in a newborn crying when he's hungry? To let his mama know when to nurse him. Do you not go to your husband with your needs? Sometimes he agrees and says, "Yes, hunny, let's buy a new minivan." Other times, he doesn't agree and says, "We don't have the money right now and it will cause us to go into debt." Why is the Lord any different?

Why are prayers an insult to God? When your child asks you for something, is it an insult? Do you sometimes say yes and sometimes no? Why is that? Well, it depends on the circumstances. And such it is with God...

[Shantimama]

I think it depends on how you would define "the power of prayer."

[Savoir Faire]

I'm appreciating this discussion, really. I think there's so many things, like these, that I don't feel comfortable asking-- I know my parents would jump all over my butt for even questioning and most of my friends probably wouldn't approve.

I guess what I'm saying as "insulting" means that if he says he will care for us, then why would I ask him for things? (As for being insulted if my kids asked...no...but I'd probably be highly annoyed as they tend to ask for things 1,000 times.)

I'm realizing that I'm NOT much of an asker. I never have been...I remember wanting a toy as a child and just being so scared to ask my parents. I guess, somewhere along the way, asking just was put as a "no no" in my book.

I don't agree with the Catholic theology of confession to a priest...so that's out. We've tossed around other similar groups, though my husband has expressed concern over baby baptism and the need for confirmation at a later age.

(Getting a little stuck here! Looks like one of us will have to give. Baby baptism or worship bands??)

I'm considering Episcopalian, one of my friends attends a church in a different state and enjoys it...except our church is a bit of a drive here. Still, it might be worth looking into.

Oh and hotmamacita, you make me blush. I am not very exciting, but I would love any IRL chat that was on a deeper subject!

[cappuccinosmom]

As for prayer, I believe in it. But that doesn't mean that I expect to get everything I pray for. I pray with the understanding that God's will is going to take place.

I ask for what I want with the understanding that He knows best and I know very little.

So praying is not incompatible with understanding that God's will determines the outcome

I agree with this. I was always taught that prayer is a conversation with God, and also it should be done along the model of Jesus' prayers. So there is some room for asking, but always followed with "They will be done".

I also believe that while God is ultimately in control, every detail is not set in stone. It will all work together to his perfect will in the ultimate sense, but we are not on a set path. So asking for a change does not to me feel like asking for God to unwrite something he's written on stone.

As to churches....there are gazillions out there. It's not a choice between baby baptism or worship bands. Keep looking. We visited a little baptist church recently that had a very reverent, restrained worship service, sang out of hymnals, acapella, and doesn't do infant baptism. Mennonites would be another denom. that doesn't do infant baptism, and I am sure there are some Mennonite churches that haven't succumbed to the drums and electric guitars.

[Savoir Faire]

Oh no...that's a whole 'nother conversation about God's big plan and how detailed it is. My husband and I were just discussing this the other day.

A Mennonite with an electric guitar? Hmm...

[genifer]

I guess what I'm saying as "insulting" means that if he says he will care for us, then why would I ask him for things? (As for being insulted if my kids asked...no...but I'd probably be highly annoyed as they tend to ask for things 1,000 times.)

I get it. I get what you mean now, and yeah, I have three kids so, yes! I DO know what you mean there. Im not insulted tho, actually, more annoyed.

I'm thinking of this verse in Matthew:

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?

Please dont think Im having a go at ya! I always enjoy any discussion when it comes to a shared christian faith. Now, those verses were talking about worry. Fretting over things as if God wouldnt care for you and your needs, but also, in the way I *think* Im understanding you, those verses go on to teach that public prayers, for the sake of publicity is not right. I agree with you there. I would really encourage you, however, to explore the topic of prayer. If you know Jesus, I believe he may be leading you or prompting you to explore something you *may* feel uncomfortable with (Im venturing a guess here, and possibly being a little bit pressumptious, if I am, I apologise). Asking for things is something I struggled with.

What about the prayer that admits we need His help in a difficult situation? If you look thru the psalms, David (and the other psalmists) prayed about all sorts of things.

So, if I'm not wanting to ask for things (IE, health, wealth or whatever)...is it more of a meditation thing?

Yes. I believe so. I spend a LOT of time in prayer but dont always spend a lot of that time asking for things except maybe greater understanding on a subject. I like to understand things, thats how I tick. I can then go and know what Im talking about if the conversation comes up with another individual. Lots of people have questions about God (and believe it or not a lot of people are seeking) and I like to be able to give answers as appropriate. Also, wisdom in parenting, being married, these are things I ask for in my prayers, bc I KNOW I do NOT possess nearly enough wisdom to handle the things I face being a wife and mum. I have been asking for somethings I have considered needs for our family but so far the Lord's said no. Im cool with that tho, I just wait.

Sometimes, my prayers are just about enjoying being in God's presence. Loving Him, adoring Him, praising Him, listening... most importantly listening, altho, if Im truely honest, Ive not always been so good at that one... Im learning tho.

[genifer]

Oh Savior Fair! Might I suggest you pray for guidance as to what church to go to?! I never set foot into a church (anymore) with out feeling as tho I was led there. Ive learnt alot of good bad and ugly things, and been to several different denominations going that route but I find that God always leads me. I dont budge anymore unless I feel he's led me. Ive gone years without a church 'home'. Thats not to say I dont have fellowship in that time tho. I do so with my family, with fellow christians I have met along the way.

Are afraid, at all, that God wont lead you? Or that you might not hear Him correctly?

[AbigailGrace]

Originally Posted by Savoir Faire

I'm appreciating this discussion, really. I think there's so many things, like these, that I don't feel comfortable asking-- I know my parents would jump all over my butt for even questioning and most of my friends probably wouldn't approve.

Uhhhh, I've been the Baptist route... and while I'm not trying to say this in a judgmental way: being Baptist is not for everyone. And it is GOOD to ask questions because you should never just take someone's word for what YOU should believe. You should find out for yourself if it is really in the Bible the way it is being taught.

I guess what I'm saying as "insulting" means that if he says he will care for us, then why would I ask him for things? (As for being insulted if my kids asked...no...but I'd probably be highly annoyed as they tend to ask for things 1,000 times.)

This is true. Asking 1,000 times is whining and we teach our children not to be whiners. But you also need to understand the heart of God. It is not God's intention for people to be sick. He doesn't put sickness on people. Therefore, it IS God's will for everyone to be healed. But again, it is not our job to figure out why everyone 'doesn't' get healed. As you said in your first post, there is good and bad & those things we have to live with here on earth.

I'm realizing that I'm NOT much of an asker. I never have been...I remember wanting a toy as a child and just being so scared to ask my parents. I guess, somewhere along the way, asking just was put as a "no no" in my book.

Most of us are scarred in some way by how our parents raised us. Why? Because they are our earthly parents (humans who make mistakes) and God is our heavenly Father (God is not man that He makes mistakes). So however you look at your mother and father on the earth tends to affect how you look at your heavenly Father. However, God does not get "pissed off" at us if we ask Him something 1,000 times. He is perfect in His love toward us. He is very patient & kind and is there to help us grow up in our faith. He also says in the Bible that He delights in giving us the desires of our heart. So don't be scared. Tell the Lord what you want and ask Him if it's His will for you to have it. God doesn't care about how many THINGS we have. He only cares about the condition of our heart. And if things are going to make us selfish, He may never give them to us. Again, I think you need to start reading the Bible for yourself or find a Bible study you can follow that not only challenges you but gives you Biblical teaching to understand what you are studying. Church is not meant to be everything we need... we are supposed to search these things out on our own, too. (which is what you are doing!!

I don't agree with the Catholic theology of confession to a priest...so that's out. We've tossed around other similar groups, though my husband has expressed concern over baby baptism and the need for confirmation at a later age.

When you start understanding the heart of the Lord, I think you will find that there are not any scriptures in the Bible to back up the idea that babies who aren't old enough to accept the Lord would go to Hell if they die. The God I serve isn't cold-hearted. Do you really believe that babies who are aborted go to Hell? That may be a subject your dh needs to start searching for in the Bible himself to come up with something he can live with.

(Getting a little stuck here! Looks like one of us will have to give. Baby baptism or worship bands??)

I'm considering Episcopalian, one of my friends attends a church in a different state and enjoys it...except our church is a bit of a drive here. Still, it might be worth looking into.

Oh and hotmamacita, you make me blush. I am not very exciting, but I would love any IRL chat that was on a deeper subject!

I think you and your dh are in a GREAT place! Do you know how many people sit in church week after week and never question what they are taught? That's how cults are formed! Keep questioning and keep searching! If worship bands aren't for you, find a church that does more traditional music. But my suggestion would be to check what the congregation believes first. You can always learn to love a different type of music. But sitting under a pastor's teaching is what is more important. You need a pastor who is reachable to the people he is teaching. He should be available for you to call and set up a meeting with him to answer questions you have. After all, that's what a teacher is. And whether he's called a pastor, preacher, priest, etc., his job is to be your teacher. Thus, he should be available to answer questions you have while you're on your journey.

Kudos to you and good luck! I always look at it like being on an adventure! Enjoy it!! After all, I feel like I am still learning and understanding, questioning and questioning some more. And having fun with it all! The more I learn about God's love, the more at peace I am with my life!!

[Bluegoat]

Well, I think that it is important that our prayers are not just a matter of asking God for things. Adoration, prayers of silence, confession, are just as important as asking for things for ourselves or others. And you are right that God knows what we need, better than we do. (Perhaps we should ask him what we need more often.)

But we should also remember that the model for all Christian prayer is the Lord's Prayer, given to us by Christ - and it does ask, for mundane daily bread. Why?

Prayer in general, I think, is about building a kind of trust and intimacy with God. And so it is important that we share our concerns and needs with him - not to let him know, but so that we get to tell him. It is a kind of unburdening.

Asking for our daily needs helps us to realize how dependent we are at each moment on God's graces.

It also has the effect, if we are praying honestly, of showing us what it is that we have in our own hearts. What if you find you are often praying about money matters, or healing for someone? What does that tell you? It forces us to examine our our desires, our own will. And when we really know our own will, then it is possible to begin discern and to conform it to God's will. So when we pray for something, say bodily healing for a friend, the last thing should always be, "but not my will, but thine, O Lord."

The question of whether such prayers "work" is something else. Biblically and Traditionally we are taught that they can, but may not always. If we remember that God is not bound by time and space, it is possible to imagine that our prayers today may have been taken into account by God even before the foundations of the world were laid. So I don't think we should ever discount the possibilities of the effects of our prayers.

[ILoveSweetpea]

I didn't have time to read all the responses, so I apologize if I'm repeating what others may have said...

I absolutely believe in the power of prayer. I believe it is vital to our spiritual health - it is our direct connection to God. Jesus taught the importance of prayer, and even prayed to his father himself!

I think people get hung up when they expect God to be a genie. LOL! I'm not saying you are making this mistake, but I've heard others say things that led me to believe they were praying for (for example) a new car and then were disappointed when God supposedly didn't deliver.

I think the more you pray, the more you become open to hearing the answers to your prayers. They are not always the answers you want to hear, but they are important answer to hear nonetheless. For example, if you are praying for a new car, God may guide your heart towards NOT getting a new car and being content with what you have.

It can be difficult to understand how prayer works exactly... and I know it is a tough issue for many. There was a heartbreaking case of a woman attending my old church whose son got leukemia. She really believed if she prayed enough, he would get well. Tragically, he died. This dear woman lost her faith and left the church. It is really hard to understand why sometimes prayers, especially prayers for someone like a sick and innocent child, go unanswered. I think the tough reality is that those prayers do get answered - but they may not get answered they way we want or can even understand. I know that sound like a brush off response to a deep and troubling issue, but I really do believe that.

Perhaps someone else can cite this, but I believe there have been studies showing prayer has actual physical effects, even if a person doesn't know they are being prayed for. (i'm thinking of the study on patients recovering from heart surgey specifically- anyone know what I'm talking about). Patients who were prayed for healed faster and had fewer complications than the group that wasn't prayed for. (This was a double blind study, btw...) Now that's exciting, right? But the difficult reality is that some patients in the group that received prayer DID have complications... does that mean the prayers weren't answered for that person? I can seem capricious and confusing... but as I said before I do believe prayers are answered, even if we don't always hear or understand the response.

I personally have found my prayers are sometimes answered quite directly. For example, my grandmother had just lost her husband of 60+ years and moved into an apartment on her own. So she was on her on for the first time in her life. She was overwhelmed, but trying so hard to be strong. I was visiting her when she realized she lost her car keys. We searched the apartment and couldn't find them. She decided to go back out to the car to look and see if she left them in the ignition. When she left, I prayed to God to help us find her keys - I felt like it was crucial that she didn't feel like she was a failure at this 'living on her own' thing. After I said the prayer I suddenly felt like I knew where her keys were... I went into her hallway closet, reached into a box on the top shelf, pulled it down, and there was her keys! I about fell over. LOL!

The vast majority of my prayers are not answered in such a clear manner... and I mean the VAST majority! But every prayer brings me closer to God. Every prayer opens my heart to Him a bit more. Every prayer is heard. And, like I keep saying, I truly believe every prayer is answered... it just may be difficult to hear or understand and it most certainly may not be the answer we hope for.

OK. I've rambled on for way too long. I doubt any of this helped. You will find a church that feels right to you... just keep an open heart and mind. I don't agree with everything at my church, but I still get a great deal out of attending. I hope you'll consider giving prayer another chance. I'll pray for you.

[oetien]

I know exactly where you're coming from.

I do believe in the power of prayer, but not the "conventional way" of it. I think prayer helps us to connect to God and ourselves, so we can find "the answer"
I believe God has the answer for everything and we need to seek the answer we need and prayer is one of the ways to find it.

But, I also have a negative feelings towards certain kind of prayer (like you said, the selfish kind). I have heard people praying and say, "I ask you right now," and that's definitely not my style.

I don't think prayer can change our destiny, but it might help us to find a direction towards our destiny.

I also believe in prayers of thanksgiving...

[InMediasRes]

I was too hyped to answer to read all the responses word for word, but I did skim them

I have been in a spiritual desert for a while now, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Prayer has been one of my biggest struggles lately. I've been having a hard time with how I was raised as well. My family is Catholic, and while I'm not really looking outside the Church because I do feel like it's where I belong, I'm having a really hard time redifinging who I am in the Church. I think our parents often teach us that God is like a parent, someone whom we ask for gifts and favors and then he arbitrarily decides if we get them or not. As I have grown into my own person, I am finding that this is an EXTREMELY limited view of God and it has been very damaging to me. I think the God = parent analogy can still work, but I am looking for more of a relationship in which neither me nor God have specific expectations in prayer. I don't praise Him because He wants orneeds praise, but because I want to. And He blesses me because He loves me, and not because I am good or worthy (although I try to be). I think ultimately I just want a relationship in which I can BE. Just BE with God, nothing more. I think the rest would follow - I "talk" to God about my struggles and my needs, and He responds. That doesn't mean He "fixes" my problems, maybe all He does is help me to find peace with my struggles or to see someone I'm struggling with in a new light.

Also, this idea that God has planned all of our days doesn't work for me. I was taught that God knows everything that will ever happen, but that doesn't mean He planned it. There is no free will if God is just puppeteering all of us.

I also love the community feeling of attending church, but at the moment I am feeling like it would be sort of empty to go to church if I cannot even find God on my own at home. I might change my mind tomorrow morning though and take another stab at mass.

Sorry if this is so convoluted, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately too. I hope you find the answers that bring you peace.