Computers and Children - Page 2

[Llyra]

Originally Posted by EnviroBecca

One of my CS-major friends in college said, "I don't understand how people who can't code can THINK." I wouldn't go that far, but I think that a basic (pun intended ; BASIC is still the best language to start with!) knowledge of programming helps people learn to organize their own thoughts and operate more logically. Not that logic is the most important thing in life--intuition is very important too--but it's certainly useful! I think programming also improves people's ability to "get with the program" i.e. to figure out how a process is operating even when it's outside the computer, for example the steps in making a certain kind of sandwich. (I noticed this working for Dining Service at a university with both CS and fine arts students.) Of course it's also important to think critically about the program rather than following it blindly, but being quick to see what the program IS is handy there.

I'm really not being snarky here, I really am not, I just want to understand, but wouldn't studying mathematics do the same thing for a child? So did the ability to think logically only arrive with the advent of the computer? FWIW, I can code, in several languages, and I do think that studying calculus and classical logic, and learning to translate Greek, did way more for my development of logical thinking skills. Those are maybe not so applicable to contemporary situations, though. I think we do agree that preschoolers don't need computer access, though. And that there's a difference between learning programming, and just playing video games, right?

[pigpokey]

Some of the Waldorf people are limiting it because of Ahriman or because of involvement in an institution that fears Ahriman.

For me, there are battles I pick and ones I don't. Research on screen time is not very positive compared to other pastimes, so some might ban it.

I used to ban artificial sweeteners completely. But then my kids got cavities, and I started to think that using some artificial sweeteners once in a while might be less harmful to my kids than using sugar in the same amount. Kid is bored with drinking only water or milk ... so now I will let them mix up a saccharin lemonade with the lemon slices at a restaurant, for example. End result, I now allow some foods I would previously have thought were not worth the risk.

So ... with computers, I figure some people are the way I used to be with artificial sweeteners. Why have to worry about it when you can just ban it? Later the child gets older and there's a tipping point.

[no5no5]

My stance is that it is important for kids to be able to explore their world on their own, and (for us) computer use is part of that. I don't think it's about learning or not learning, or about developing skills. For us, it's just about autonomy and exploration. If I can't think of a reasonable, understandable, and true reason she should or shouldn't do something, I try to let her make her own decisions.

I have friends who think of computer use as just another form of screen time, and perhaps it is. To me it does seem different--it is interactive, and there aren't so many commercials (at least at DD's favorite websites). Regardless, our position is no TV (we don't own one) but as much computer time as she likes (she self-regulates very well). I think my friends' kids have not yet asked to use the computer, so denying them access is probably a very comfortable position at this point...but we'll see how long it lasts when they do start asking.

[siobhang]

we got my oldest his own computer at age 2 to keep him from playing with my machine. Learning how to use the mouse actually has immensely improved his fine motor skills and hand eye coordination. And I know he is learning to read partiarlly as a result of his computer usage.

The key difference between computers and TV/Video is the directly interactive nature of computers. The computer responds immediately to the inputs of the user and the user learns a lot of "cause and effect" from that interaction.

Computers are not replacements for other forms of learning - my kids also spend a lot of outside time and we read books together, play cards, board games, etc. But the computer and internet are awesome for child controlled, child directed activities. When preschoolers and early elementary school kids are struggling so much with managing the world around them, computers can be a great way to give them additional exploration potential in a safe and supportive environment.

Here is a great article on Indian slum kids learning how to use a computer without any sort of teaching or training. I find this example remarkably empowering.
http://www.niit-tech.com/media-news....=109&path=7/22

[*Aimee*]

I must be a really craptastic parent then because DS1 spends about 20 min. a day playing computer games on noggin. He loves them. And he loves playing games on our Iphones. He learned how to unlock them at about 2 yrs old and he's 3 now.

DH is a senior software engineer and CTO of his company. He loves seeing DS interested in computers. And especially because it's SUCH a big deal to be just like Daddy. The other day I said "time to get done with Noggin' and he said "I'm doing my IMPORTANT work!".

My son still plays outside, reads books, does crafts, helps me bake, no streams (its 50 degrees outside) but yeah, he still does normal kid things. And I'm not doing it so he can learn anything, he does it because it's fun.

[kcstar]

I'm an engineer, and I use a computer much of the day at work. Most of my family lives pretty far away, so much of our socialization these days happens through Facebook. So DS sees us on the computer much of the time.

I did pretty well banning TV & screentime for DS' first ~15-18 months. I started DS off with Sesame Street playlists, which provided an EXCELLENT opportunity to talk about/show things with DS that I wouldn't have thought about doing. He loves to move the mouse around, or push the buttons. At 2 he doesn't have a lot of understanding of what they do, but that's okay.

He likes the computers at the library. He likes to play Reader Rabbit there. I might get him a computer game or two for Christmas.

My parents bought an Apple IIe when I was in about 2nd grade. I can remember reading off strange characters from a computer magazine to help my father program computer games on it. We didn't get a Windows machine until I was in High School, but I picked up on it very quickly.

One of the jobs my mother held was data entry, so we had Typing Tutor to play with and develop those skills.

I count the computer in as screen time. While that is where I started DS off, he uses it very little at home anymore. He asks for the TV all the time, and we usually tell him no. I think in moderation it's fine.

His limit is about 1 hour per day. We also make a point of taking him outside, going for walks, or going to the park. He "helps" with the garden. We read to him, and he loves to "read" to us. There's a balance in everything.

[SquishyKitty]

Originally Posted by AllisonR

My guess is most of those that ban computers all together are not actually on this site, kwim? Otherwise it's "do as I say and not as I do"; like taking a puff of a cigarette and then telling your kids not to smoke.

Both DH and I make our livings from the computer. DS and DD both used the computer early. We allow about 1.5 hours per day, be that computer or tv. They usually prefer the computer. I do not believe the computer itself is hideous. I believe they enjoy it more because it is more interactive; and they learn more from the computer (math, reading....) than the more passive tv. However, todays computers is the tv of the 1980s. You plop your kid in front of it and come back 4 hours later, and your kid will suffer - lack of human interaction, lack of exercise, lack of social skills, lack of interaction with nature and the world... But there is a happy medium, between never-ever, and 4 hours a day.

[EnviroBecca]

Llyra wrote:

I'm really not being snarky here, I really am not, I just want to understand, but wouldn't studying mathematics do the same thing for a child?

No, I think that doing math all in your own brain is a very different experience from programming a computer and watching it follow your instructions. Programming is sort of like training a dog or teaching a person but with all the physical aspects and the dog/person's common sense and learning abilities removed, so that you have to include EVERYTHING in your instructions every time. I think that is very educational. Sure, there are other ways to learn logical reasoning skills, but they're not exactly the same as programming.

I think we do agree that preschoolers don't need computer access, though. And that there's a difference between learning programming, and just playing video games, right?

Right! That's something I didn't address in my previous post: Playing games only teaches kids the physical skills of using the computer, the basic abstractions (you move the mouse away from you on the table to move the cursor upward on the screen--that's really pretty weird, when you think about it!), and the basics of the user interface (file icons, folders, dialog boxes). All those things will be useful in their later use of computers for office work and such, but they don't present the same learning opportunities as learning to program--which becomes more feasible once kids can read.

However, we've started talking with EnviroKid about how computers think because of his experiences with games. Recently he was playing a pbskids game in which a child has lost something and Grover goes looking for it and brings back something that rhymes with the lost thing. In the first round, EnviroKid noticed that there was a slight pause in Grover's speech before he said the name of the object. In the second round, he saw that the game was exactly the same as before but with different objects; he said, "He stops to remember what to say? But no, because that's not the real Grover, just a computer drawing." I explained that the computer is following instructions to make the pictures and words happen. Instead of writing a whole set of instructions for each version of the story, the programmer wrote a story with blanks that are filled with these things called variables. A variable is like a box the computer can reach into when it comes to that part of the program. When you click on the thing that rhymes with the lost thing, the computer puts that thing into the box. Then the picture of that thing gets pasted into the space next to the picture of Grover, but he's not like the real Grover who can see that thing and remember picking it up. The computer plays the recording of Grover's voice saying, "Here is your" but then it has to reach into the box and take out the recording of Grover's voice saying, "hat." So we hear a little pause while the computer reaches into the box.

[rightkindofme]

There are a couple of things standing out to me in this thread. First of all is the frequent statements that children learn better by doing concrete things so they shouldn't be allowed to use a computer. Who on MDC really and truly spends all of their time doing things that help them learn? Not me, I can tell you that. There is a place for leisure time and I'm ok with my kids having it. I think that the moralistic argument for playing outside vs. using a computer is limited. I think there is an element of people disliking any 'new' thing and longing for the 'good old days'. People have acted this way for thousands of years and it's pretty funny.

But most importantly for my household is the complete lack of acknowledgment of culture. There is a big difference between a programmer and a geek as my husband could tell you in great detail. My husband is a geek. If we completely prevented our kids from using the computer until junior high or high school we would be saying that they don't get to join their dad in his culture. My husband pays a lot of attention to technology and that includes video games. (Amusingly he doesn't play that many, but he knows all about them.) If our kids are going to stand a chance of talking to our adult friends it will be about computer stuff. My husband is already putting together ideas for projects to help our kids learn programming. He was partially hired for his last position because of a cultural fit. He was asked when he started programming and he said seven. Apparently the median age of beginning programming at the company is eight. I don't know if my kids will want to be geeks but I'm going to provide them with the opportunity to decide.

[mrspineau]

I don't have a problem with computers and children, but I do believe there should be restrictions.

at a young age, lets say until age seven, I think that computers should be supervised completely and that they should only be used for emails, games, and learning. From around age seven until about 14, I think that they should be kept in a neutral area like the kitchen or livingroom where there is lots of traffic. NO computers in the bedroom. there are just way too many preditors and nasty stuff on the internet. after that, if the child is responsible and trustworthy, MAYBE one can be in the bedroom. But even then, I would want to know everywhere they have been on the internet, and my husband who's a computer genius would be able to find that out for sure.

I just think that computers are great for learning and for keeping in touch but there are so many horrible things on there that children do not need to be exposed to.

[elmh23]

My husband was writing computer programs at age 6, taking them apart and rebuilding them at 8 and now at 28, works as a programmer/analyst. Computers are a huge part of our day.

That said, dd is almost 5 and does not have daily computer time. We show her things on the computer and let her explore certain things (always with dad there to make sure she doesn't open up any work things.) One of her favorite activities right now is to type in notepad. She's just learning to spell some things and she really enjoys practicing on the computer. But they aren't a huge part of HER day.

When our computer finally gets upgraded for a newer model, dh will teach the kids how to take apart the old one and rebuild it. To him, this is an important life skill, lol.