resource packet for those who've been circ'd

[mama24-7]

my nephews were circ'd & i'd like to put info together now to give them when they turn 18. i know that things will change between now & then (I may even like their mother by then ) but i know if i don't start it now, i'll never do it.

anyone know what would be good to put in in case they decide to sue?

thanks.
sus

[MommytoB]

I would say to put in complications of circ with pictures, the other type of circ for a certain # can't recall where it is but it defines each circ type with the possible complications from that type of circ has graphic pictures there .
Also make sure you state that circ harms more because there is no benefit that is truly pleasing from a circumcision .
Along with foreskin restoration information .

[momtolivy]

Really? I would perhaps worry that their aunt taking such an interest in their circ status would be quite off-putting for an 18 year old. How would you possibly bring that up? I'm not asking to be snarky - just thinking that this may come across as creepy - especially at an age when they may be quite happy with their penises as they are (and had no choice but to accept). It's one thing to dissuade someone from circing an infant - it's a whole 'nother ball of wax to suggest to a teenager that they may consider suing their parents/doctor/hcp for mutilating them as infants...

[PuppyFluffer]

momtolivy, I can see your sentiment.

Let me perhaps explain what the climate might be like in the future. The internet has made it quite easy to obtain information that in the past was very difficult to learn. There is much information now available about circumcision and it's damage.

I believe that the vast majority of parents that select to circumcise their son's do so because they believe it to be in their child's best interest. The solicitation by the medical community certainly implies it...yet no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circ.

Every year for the last 14 years, David Wilson has organized a demonstration in Washington DC around the end of March/early April. It coincided with the creation of the federal law which prohibits any form of female minor genital alteration and national child abuse prevention week. (As a side note, I believe this law is clearly unconstitutional as our Constitution states that no law is to be created which has a bias for gender. Giving minor female children genital protection yet giving no protection for males is obviously gender discrimination and I hope to live long enough to see this law before our nation's Supreme Court...but that's a side note to what I am trying to say.)

This demonstration lasts a week and happens at the start of the Cherry Blossom Festival. It's a time of many visitors to the area and many schools make field trips. I've not been able to attend on a week day when most of the youth are there but I've been there on the weekends for three years and I can give you this feedback: The youth GET it! They are interested in all things sexual - it's just the age. They also want straight talk. From my experience, they are readily able to grasp the issues surrounding circumcision - the physical are the most interesting to them...but they also see that it's not ok to alter another's body without their permission, they get the human rights aspect. I have seen many young men (late teens I am guessing) come up and say "Hey, what's this all about?" and then listen to other men explain what circumcision is (many don't know exactly what happens in a circ), how the foreskin would function if they had one and what has been lost to circ. They are pretty surprised. I've seen them assimilate the factual info and move right to personal questions like "Why was this doen to me?" "Why do doctors recommend this still?" "Why would anyone do this if they knew this info?" etc. They seem to grasp rather readily that they have been robbed of something rather important. They say that they will research it further and hungrily take any literature you have to hand out with websites and such. And I just know that those young men will look it up and do more research.

William Stowell has been in attendence each year I've been there. He successfully sued his circumciser as an adult. If I am recallilng correctly, his case was based upon wrongfully obtained "informed consent". To have him there to speak to these young men is a wonderfu tool to empower them to take charge about something they had no power over at the time.

I think the vast majority of young men have no idea that they have a window of time to persue legal action and most won't bother to do so I am guessing....but the more information comes out....the more young men will know that they can act if they want.

It's not about suing parents or making them out to be horrible abusers of their children. It's about making the medical community accountable for their actions. When circumcision is no longer profitable...then they will stop soliciting it. When the risks of offering it outweigh the gains of performing it....we'll see a change.

Educating the youth is really where I see hope - regardless of whether they sue anyone. They GET it that it's not right to alter another person's body. They understand the basic wrong in it.

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by momtolivy

Really? I would perhaps worry that their aunt taking such an interest in their circ status would be quite off-putting for an 18 year old. How would you possibly bring that up? I'm not asking to be snarky - just thinking that this may come across as creepy - especially at an age when they may be quite happy with their penises as they are (and had no choice but to accept). It's one thing to dissuade someone from circing an infant - it's a whole 'nother ball of wax to suggest to a teenager that they may consider suing their parents/doctor/hcp for mutilating them as infants...

yes, seriously. and i have about 18 years to decide how/what to write as an intro ltr to put w/ whatever i give them so that they hopefully won't be so "off-put" as you say. you may be right, they may be happy w/ their penis' the way they are. but, if by that time, they don't know any different, they may want to know they have so options since the choice was taken from them by their parents (if you want the back story, i'll share when i;m not ). if they did want to sue someone, including their parents, i'd support them any way i could.

Originally Posted by PuppyFluffer

momtolivy, I can see your sentiment.

Let me perhaps explain what the climate might be like in the future. The internet has made it quite easy to obtain information that in the past was very difficult to learn. There is much information now available about circumcision and it's damage.

I believe that the vast majority of parents that select to circumcise their son's do so because they believe it to be in their child's best interest. The solicitation by the medical community certainly implies it...yet no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circ.

Every year for the last 14 years, David Wilson has organized a demonstration in Washington DC around the end of March/early April. It coincided with the creation of the federal law which prohibits any form of female minor genital alteration and national child abuse prevention week. (As a side note, I believe this law is clearly unconstitutional as our Constitution states that no law is to be created which has a bias for gender. Giving minor female children genital protection yet giving no protection for males is obviously gender discrimination and I hope to live long enough to see this law before our nation's Supreme Court...but that's a side note to what I am trying to say.)

This demonstration lasts a week and happens at the start of the Cherry Blossom Festival. It's a time of many visitors to the area and many schools make field trips. I've not been able to attend on a week day when most of the youth are there but I've been there on the weekends for three years and I can give you this feedback: The youth GET it! They are interested in all things sexual - it's just the age. They also want straight talk. From my experience, they are readily able to grasp the issues surrounding circumcision - the physical are the most interesting to them...but they also see that it's not ok to alter another's body without their permission, they get the human rights aspect. I have seen many young men (late teens I am guessing) come up and say "Hey, what's this all about?" and then listen to other men explain what circumcision is (many don't know exactly what happens in a circ), how the foreskin would function if they had one and what has been lost to circ. They are pretty surprised. I've seen them assimilate the factual info and move right to personal questions like "Why was this doen to me?" "Why do doctors recommend this still?" "Why would anyone do this if they knew this info?" etc. They seem to grasp rather readily that they have been robbed of something rather important. They say that they will research it further and hungrily take any literature you have to hand out with websites and such. And I just know that those young men will look it up and do more research.

William Stowell has been in attendence each year I've been there. He successfully sued his circumciser as an adult. If I am recallilng correctly, his case was based upon wrongfully obtained "informed consent". To have him there to speak to these young men is a wonderfu tool to empower them to take charge about something they had no power over at the time.

I think the vast majority of young men have no idea that they have a window of time to persue legal action and most won't bother to do so I am guessing....but the more information comes out....the more young men will know that they can act if they want.

It's not about suing parents or making them out to be horrible abusers of their children. It's about making the medical community accountable for their actions. When circumcision is no longer profitable...then they will stop soliciting it. When the risks of offering it outweigh the gains of performing it....we'll see a change.

Educating the youth is really where I see hope - regardless of whether they sue anyone. They GET it that it's not right to alter another person's body. They understand the basic wrong in it.

thank you for all this. it's good to know they won't likely think of me as their creepy aunt for sending them this stuff.

the one thing i will say about these parents boys is that i don't think they made this decision thinking it was in their best interest. these are people who willing research nothing & do as the dr. says w/o question. so, i believe that is why it was done.

and, in a way, i don't even think of myself as being related to them, which makes the thought of all this easier b/c in addition to them being dh's sisters children, they're from donor eggs so they;re no more related to me than a stranger on the street.

sus

[Ron_Low]

To me, part of what's important about this project is showing what the family had access too but ignored. That would be the photos you'd see by Googling Circumcision Damage. That would include the AAP, RACP, Canadian, and UK policy statements.

The other part of it needs to be an explanation of how and why foreskin feels really good, and some of the ways men restore. Who knows? By then there may be gene therapies which make a real foreskin regrow.

[momtolivy]

I totally agree, PuppyFluffer, and I can absolutely understand the horror of having to watch a beloved nephew go through such a terrible thing. I think education is key - but maybe in the case of family (and at 18) - it may be better to go with circ as an element of human rights... rather than a more personal approach. I say this as someone who loses sleep knowing that some babies are still circed - and as a mother to an intact son.

Of course, I don't know the backstory - and maybe I'm having trouble articulating what I mean to say (pg w/ #4, ability to process anything is going out the window, lol). My concern is not the education piece - it's more the impression that a young man might have of himself and his sexuality if someone came to him and said, essentially, that he has been sexually assaulted by a medical professional, at the request of his parents, and that he will never know what he has and will continue to miss out on. These are conclusions he (they) may come to on his own, but he is the only innocent party in all of this and has to live with (and hopefully accept) his body as it is, despite circ.

[PuppyFluffer]

Momtolivy, you bring up a very sad reality....and how to share that with someone is something that has to be very tough to do, especially at the age of 18 when they are just coming into themselves and their sexual maturity and starting on the long journey of learning who they are.

I've hung back and listened to the exchanges for the most part with the more experienced men who work on this issue. When approached by a young man or a group of them, they present the sexual angle pretty quickly because that is the hook that gets their interest. I, being a woman, can't discuss the mechanics of the foreskin in the manner that a man can. I think the men doing the educating are pretty sensitive to the awareness that the young people in front of him are hearing the facts of the damage of circ for the first time. In that moment, it seems that many of them take in the info in a very objective manner and move on to more questions of facts and function.

I know that the fact of the personal wounding upon their bodies is something they must reckon with at a later time. In my experience with this education, I've not seen one person seem shocked in a personal manner at the moment of learning. I am sure that happens as they do their own research. I think it is important to let them know that they do have this small window of time to legally act if they wish to take action. I imagine having some recourse could be very empowering if they wish to exercise it....but they can't do so if they don't know they have that possibility.

And just to say it again...while I think a parent has the obligation to fully research the decisions that they make for their child....I place the blame for the perpetuation of RIC squarely upon the shoulders of the medical community who continue to vigorously solicitate circumcision.