do some kids just need to cry (OR) let's talk naps - Page 5

[saraann]

Originally Posted by gcgirl

Aletha Solter has a couple of books about this subject: The Aware Baby and Tears and Tantrums. She recommends allowing children to cry as a way to relieve stress, although she is very clear that you should NEVER LET A CHILD CRY ALONE and always hold your child in a comfortable and safe place where the child can feel safe letting out strong emotions.

Personally, I agree. It's been wonderful for DS to help him relieve his strong emotions; he gets much more restful sleep afterward, or if he's not ready for sleep, he ends up much calmer and clear-headed. I think what you're doing is fine.

Here is an interesting article from Althea Solter about crying in arms. http://www.awareparenting.com/comfort.htm

I found the article very helpful when I was a new mom with a colicky baby. I think it would be helpful reading for your situation as well.

To the OP, I don't think that there is anything wrong with what you are doing. Only you know your child and only you know what is best for her. What you are describing is not the same as letting her cry it out alone. It sounds like she needs help decompressing and winding down from the morning activity and you are helping her do this by holding her in your arms and helping her fall asleep.

[sleepingbeauty]

When I stopped napping, my mother still made me lay down and have "quiet time" for an hour or so. That way I was resting at the very least.

[LadyCatherine185]

Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO."

My DS has ALWAYS fought sleep. He doesn't go to sleep on his own.. never has. Very rarely does he go to sleep willingly. He will yawn, rub his eyes, ask for "ni-night" and STILL fights it. First I always try nursing him lying down, but this only works about 1/2 the time. Usually I have to hold him and rock/bounce him and he cries for a few minutes. It is the only way we've been able to get him to go to sleep. He has never ever cried alone.. but he is crying because he wants to play, not sleep, even though he is tired and needs sleep.

I think you are doing the best you can in this situation, and I hope for you this phase passes soon. I don't think it will for us, because as I've said, DS has done this his whole life (he is 13.5 mo) and I don't see an end in sight.

[purplemoon]

It does end! With kids who fight sleep and desperately need it, they either grow to where they don't need a nap or understand their own needs and want to go to bed or lay down.

But kids with sleep issues are hard, hard, hard.

Luckily, there is an end in sight. Untill they get my age and get insomnia.

[JL83]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO." Obviously, these people don't have sleep fighting children/babies and have no idea what you are going through.

Many of the people replying on this tread who are against what the OP is doing have hard sleepers! And most of us have said so.

The fact remains that there are alternatives! That's the jot of MDC is that people care enough to come up with alternatives to the mainstream approaches of things like CIO.

I have a very good idea of what the OP is going through. But I think her first post is very telling where she explains that it's for her that she wants her DD to keep napping. It's not until later that she backpedals and tries to say it's for her DD... And I think that supporting her choice to do CIO is against the point of MDC.

It sounds like she has 2 main choices. She can either structure her day so that her DD is actually tired at nap time. For many kids that's both vigorous activity AND mental stimulation. At that age, the only thing that got my DD to nap was daycare. They ran them outside for a full hour to 1.5 hours (which is what I did at home) and she had to interact with 11 other kids for 4.5 hours before nap time. Her other choice, if she's really interested in AP approaches, is to figure out a way to induce rest (not necessarily sleep) in a respectful manner.

I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by JL83

Many of the people replying on this tread who are against what the OP is doing have hard sleepers! And most of us have said so.

The fact remains that there are alternatives! That's the jot of MDC is that people care enough to come up with alternatives to the mainstream approaches of things like CIO.

I have a very good idea of what the OP is going through. But I think her first post is very telling where she explains that it's for her that she wants her DD to keep napping. It's not until later that she backpedals and tries to say it's for her DD... And I think that supporting her choice to do CIO is against the point of MDC.

It sounds like she has 2 main choices. She can either structure her day so that her DD is actually tired at nap time. For many kids that's both vigorous activity AND mental stimulation. At that age, the only thing that got my DD to nap was daycare. They ran them outside for a full hour to 1.5 hours (which is what I did at home) and she had to interact with 11 other kids for 4.5 hours before nap time. Her other choice, if she's really interested in AP approaches, is to figure out a way to induce rest (not necessarily sleep) in a respectful manner.

I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!

I guess her situation is a little different than mine in that her DD just started doing this and is probably trying to drop her nap. (OP, could you skip nap and put her to bed earlier?) Whereas my DS has ALWAYS fought sleep, and there was NO OTHER WAY to get him to sleep as a baby than holding and rocking him while he cried. Not because I wanted him to have a nap.. but because he is tired and needed it (he does this for nighttime too) and we have tried sooooo many things and nothing has worked without some tears. Now, he does not cry every single time anymore, but he still fights sleep..

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by LadyCatherine185

Wow, I just cannot believe some of the comments from people about what you are doing being so "horrible" and "just as bad as CIO." Obviously, these people don't have sleep fighting children/babies and have no idea what you are going through.

Really? I'll just copy and paste my previous post.

"I have a 3.5 year old with major sleep issues. She has very rarely, if ever, slept through the night and gave up her naps before she was 2. I would dare anyone to show me a kid who is worse with sleep than this one, but despite that I would never physically restrain her to get her to sleep. I'm sorry but my respect for my child's bodily integrity does not end just because I want them to do something. There are other ways to help them relax and rest than doing that."

[LadyCatherine185]

Originally Posted by Heavenly

Really? I'll just copy and paste my previous post.

"I have a 3.5 year old with major sleep issues. She has very rarely, if ever, slept through the night and gave up her naps before she was 2. I would dare anyone to show me a kid who is worse with sleep than this one, but despite that I would never physically restrain her to get her to sleep. I'm sorry but my respect for my child's bodily integrity does not end just because I want them to do something. There are other ways to help them relax and rest than doing that."

sorry i didn't see every single post. don't know how your dd slept at 13 months, but i have not heard of/met anyone who sleeps worse than my ds..

i guess there are just going to be disagreements on this subject, and every mom needs to do what they feel is right for their own child. my ds HAS TO have a nap everyday, and HAS TO sleep at night (even though he wakes frequently during both....) to function.. he is the type who will be running around falling everywhere can't talk can't see straight crying at everything but will still resist going to sleep. I have tried everything I know to do, warm bath, stories, pitch black dark, white noise, nursing, rocking, bouncing..... and he STILL resists sleep and does cry when we are trying to get him to sleep most of the time.....

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by JL83

There is a fundamental difference between a making a choice due to safety (carseats, carrying kids in the parking lot, keeping kids close at the mall) and one of parenting convenience.

y.

Actually I consider helping children get enough rest to be a saftey issue. My child was sick all the time, constantly injuring herself, underweight and developmentally delayed. When she finally started getting the rest she needed (but could not get without my help) she was rarely sick ever again, gained weight and caught up to her peers developmentally. and the difference was noticable within a week. I did not do this for convenience. This was for my childs well being 100%.

also i figured it is kinder to help them get to sleep while they fuss for 5-10 minutes than to let them scream exhausted for 5+ hours....

[3*is*magic]

Originally Posted by lilyka

Actually I consider helping children get enough rest to be a saftey issue. My child was sick all the time, constantly injuring herself, underweight and developmentally delayed. When she finally started getting the rest she needed (but could not get without my help) she was rarely sick ever again, gained weight and caught up to her peers developmentally. and the difference was noticable within a week. I did not do this for convenience. This was for my childs well being 100%.

also i figured it is kinder to help them get to sleep while they fuss for 5-10 minutes than to let them scream exhausted for 5+ hours....

Sleep is essential for growth, development, health. I am always amazed that people (IRL and online) who would never feed their kids a diet of junk food don't recognize that children need A LOT more sleep than adults to be at their best. Making sure your children get enough sleep is a sign that you DO respect them and that you care enough about their needs to make a choice they might disagree with.

[BetsyS]

My 3 year old still naps every day. Without it, he's the falling down, irrationally behaving crazy man described by PP. So, he naps.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to somewhat force the issue. I don't hold my ds down, but I do require that he stays on his bed for the entire nap time. For him, that's enough that he'll go to sleep. Obviously, he'd prefer to get off his bed, but that's not an option.

And, for those that just suggest an earlier bedtime....for some families that just doesn't work. We have a nap, because my dh doesn't get home until 6 or later every night, and he leaves at 6am. My 3 year old sleeps from 7:30 to 7:30 in the morning, with a 2-3 hour nap. If he skipped his nap, he'd end up in bed by 5 or 5:30, and he'd never see daddy.

For us, it's worth pushing the nap issue a bit, so that he gets to see his dad.

[saraann]

I wonder why people keep saying over and over that the OP is holding her child down when she explains here that she is holding her in her arms soothing, kissing and rocking her.

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

I really want to get across the idea that I am not holding down to a bed or anything crazy like that, I am just holding her in my arms when she is VISIBLY tired and when she tries to get down I just don't let her and she does get mad but very quickly falls asleep after that drinking her baba while I am holding her in my lap the whole time, soothing her and kissing her and rocking her.

How is this CIO? From my understanding CIO is when a parent leaves a baby alone in their room to cry themselves to sleep without comfort. In no way is what the OP describing CIO.

[honeybee]

I don't think it's my job to make sure my children are never unhappy or never have to do something they don't want to. I think you're doing fine. All kids are different, and while some may be ready to give up that nap at that age, others aren't. My 3.5 year old still seems to need a nap (although not every day).

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

I really wonder if the crying expends that last little bit of energy that then helps her to relax and fall asleep, or is that just wishful justifying??

i find this is true for my dd, it's like she needs something to push against to get to sleep. she kicks covers off, she pushes her head into the pillow, etc. i think that me holding her just allows her to push against me.

Originally Posted by JL83

I really don't see how encouraging to continue to hold her DD for 15 minutes while she fights and screams is AP!

i thought AP parenting was about meeting your child's needs. if the child is falling asleep for 1-1/2 hours after this it sounds like she needs the sleep.

i'll be honest, i think you are taking an extreme view of CIO and i don't think that this qualifies.

[mamadelbosque]

I don't know about the other posters, but my DS1 didn't (for a time) just fight naps. He fought sleep in general. Whether he napped or not determined the level of fight he'd throw at bedtime - if he nappped (with help) he went to sleep at 8:30-9pm *MUCH* easier than if he didn't, in which case he would be positvely miserable and scream and run and cry becaue he was *SO* overtired and he KNEW if he stopped moving for a moment he WOULD fall asleep. So he just would NOT stop moving. He still does this to a degree, but its not nearly as awful as it was for about a month or two ~20-22 months. Should I have just let my DS be miserable and run around and be uber hyper untill he literally passed out?? Would that be preferable to some of you on here vs, simply stopping him, changin his diaper and then holding him till he stopped moving so that he WOULD fall asleep?? You would rather you, and your DC both be utterly miserable because he/she was SO over tired for 2 or 3 hours before they just passed out??

[PlayaMama]

yeah, i'm not sure if we just have vastly different kids or what but it seems like there are very different approaches to this.

i personally can't see the benefit to having a craxy dd stumbling around like a zombie either.

and fwiw, my ds transitioned to no naps without a hitch so i don't buy the idea that it will take weeks of adjustment to the no nap routine. i knew he was ready because he could go the entire day without acting like he was tired or needed sleep.

[moondiapers]

I had to hold and rock my ds to sleep at night and for naps from 4 months on. And he'd cry because he knew if I was rocking him that it was sleep time. But I just kept rocking and soothing until he fell asleep. It never took very long...because he was always tired and ready for bed when I did it.

[fruitlove]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

I agree 100% with what pioyt had to say....if I wouldn't do it to my DH or want someone to do it to me...I don't do it.


We have never ever had a routine sleep time/nap schedule or anything like that...people in our house sleep when they are tired, wake up when they are ready to to play or work again and eat when they're hungry, etc...we just don't fight about sleep around here...but maybe DD is just "one of those kids" who sleeps well...I don't know, we have never had a problem.

I believe that the body knows when it needs to shut down and recharge, just like it knows when it needs to refuel...there have been times when DD has been so tired she could hardly walk straight...but if I tried to suggest sleep to her she wasn't game and became upset...so, generally, she tells me when she needs to go to sleep and THOSE times when I bring her to the big bed to lay down she sighs and giggles and wiggles her feet....so, I don't know. I would rather promote a relationship with sleep that has her giggling and toe wiggling than wailling....I know a lady with a son who won't even go into his room to play because he won't go near his crib, if he even SEES his crib he starts freaking out, I'm guessing because he thinks he is about to be forced to go to sleep and he knows that it will mean crying and struggling, etc...that's terrible. I would hate to have a kid who associated his place of rest and dreaming with fear, crying and upset.


Sistees, someone above said it best "You know your childs needs the best" - so...do what your gut is telling you to do I guess...I agree with a PP who said that sometimes kids in that age range are too "thirsty for life" to want to go to sleep when they're tired...I remember when I was a kid being like that with the bathroom...my body was clearly telling me I needed to go to the bathroom but I didn't want to go inside because I was having too much fun playing...so, a couple of times that ended up being a not-so-great decision, if you know what I mean!

Great post! Thank you!

[PoppyMama]

Being attached to our children doesn't mean making our entire world revolve around preventing them from ever being frustrated. It's not even possible nor would it be healthy if it was. Holding a child snuggly in your arms and cuddling them while fuss before sleeping is no different than wearing them until they get to sleep. It's no different than swaddling. I found "crying in arms" reference (not in a negative way) on the API website and IMNSHO being an attached parent means that you "learn" YOUR child and help them get to where they need to be. It means not following a book or a set of rules to the T while neglecting the needs of YOUR child.

Take care and good luck.

[Kristine233]

OP, I totally understand and think you are doing an awesome job. My oldest fought sleep, any sleep, from the time she was born. I mean, she NEVER wanted to sleep! I even went as far as taking "sleep issues" classes aimed at young infants and children. When she was over tired and finally passed out she would get up an have sleep terrors. She'd sit up and scream bloody murder while asleep and then get up and RUN through a dark house and hide, it wasn't safe. We had to start putting up gates in front of doors and such. We'd find her wedged behind the fridge or in closets, the oddest places. She was so over tired her body flipped out when she finally would fall asleep. I finally gave in and started rocking her and cuddling her as she cried. It broke my heart but it did help her fall asleep and assured she got ENOUGH sleep. She got lots of love and her last little burst of crying was the stimulation she needed to finally relax her body.

She is now 10 years old and has never outgrown her sleep issues. She is now old enough to recognize them herself and has requested help dealing with it. She knows she needs sleep and her body STILL, to this day, can't regulate sleep correctly. With the approval from her pediatrician she takes melatonin tablets at bedtime when she is having an extremely hard time. Her body just doesn't "wind down" like most and all the quiet time and schedules in the world have never helped her.

My sister's little girl is the same way. She is one years old and fights sleep. She takes one mini nap during the day (she fights all naps and that's the best that my sister has managed) and then at night she is so over tired that she simply can't fall asleep. I've seen my sister sit with her for nearly 2 hours doing quiet time trying to get her to sleep when she so obviously needed it. When my sister was so exhausted she was losing patience I stepped in to help. With my sister's approval I held her and cuddled her (my niece) and she cried for literally 3 minutes and then fell into a deep sound sleep.

Each and every child is different and has different needs. My youngest was the sleeping queen. To this day she still puts herself to sleep and sleeps really well, she always has. My middle child was pretty typical and my oldest still has trouble sleeping. I've run the gambit when it comes to sleep issues. I find cuddling and holding a child while giving them kisses and talking sweetly to them is VERY different than CIO where you leave the room and offer no reassurances.