Question for Catholics

[adoremybabe]

I couldn't find the usual thread for Catholics so I decided to start my own thread.

My sister has made plans to get married in a courthouse next Friday. They will make plans in the future for a small church wedding. I do not know what to do.

She has been living with her fiance. The reasons that they have for getting married this way is lack of money and lack of time for classes etc. I also believe that they do not want to wait the required 6 months.

I of course do not see the logic behind it but they are adults and they make their own decisions. My mother does not yet know. I urged my sister to tell her today. I don't think that it's my place to tell her but, I talk to my mom on the phone everyday and I weill not feel right talking to her while knowing this info.

If it was your sibling would you go to the ceremony? I asked DH what he would do if it was one of his siblings and he said that since there hasn't been an invite extended, he wouldn't go.

My mother and father first got married in a courthouse 2 months before I was born. They got married in the Church 5 years later. I know that they didn't receive communion that entire time. I feel like my sister needs to be reminded of this.

After my mom and dad got married, several of my mom's siblings surprised them with a small potluck dinner.

We are very conservative Catholics. I just don't know what my role should be in this situation. Any insight or advice would be welcomed.

[greenmagick]

I'll preface by saying I am not catholic...but I was and both sides of my extended family are. I did not have a catholic wedding obviously, but of course my whole family came.

I hope this doesnt come across snarky, I dont mean it too, but why would you not go? If your sister isnt wanting a catholic ceremony, for whatever the reason, dont you think her feelings should be respected? Would you rather her fake her way through a catholic ceremony (which many people I know have done....because the wanted the big church wedding, but not the faith that goes along with it) becaues IMO that is disrespectful to the church.

[adoremybabe]

She wants to be Catholic. She is Catholic. She and her fiance attend Mass weekly. Her only disregard for the Church is that she is living with her fiance.

She wants to go this route because they are currently spending money or house projects. They want to be married NOW.

[enkmom]

I was your sister 21 years ago. My husband and I were married at the courthouse because his first marriage was still in the process of being declared invalid and we were desperate to begin our lives together. When we were free to be married in the church we went through the counseling and had a lovely mass.

Our families (his Catholic, mine nothing) came to both ceremonies, and I would have been bitterly disappointed if someone had refused to come celebrate with me. In my opinion your role is to support your sister. My parents did not go to my sisters wedding because they did not approve of the location and that is a hurt that will never heal for my sister. Please, please go.

[greenmagick]

Originally Posted by adoremybabe

She wants to be Catholic. She is Catholic. She and her fiance attend Mass weekly. Her only disregard for the Church is that she is living with her fiance.

She wants to go this route because they are currently spending money or house projects. They want to be married NOW.

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that she isnt Catholic, just that it sounds as if a Catholic ceremony is not that important to her at this time. My point is still it is her decision on what feels right to her at this point.

[Michigan Mama]

I used to feel differently about this, where I would have considered not going because I didn't want it to come across as my agreeing with the decision.

But now I feel like it's more important to show love to your sister in a way that will keep the doors of the relationship open. If you have the opportunity to lovingly speak the truth to her, I think it's important to do so. But if you say you won't go (because of a faith issue), it may close her off both to you (and any positive influence you might have on her) and the Church.

I would go. But like I said, I do think it's important to let her know you don't think it is right. Tell her why, but make sure she knows you love her.

That just me. I actually wrestled with this when my mom got remarried because she raised me in the faith, taught me the faith. But I know she and my step-dad were practically living together beforehand. When I talked to her about it before hand she said, "I just have to do what feels right to me right now." I was like, "Oh brother!". But I went because I think it might have permanently destroyed the relationship if i hadn't.

God bless you. It's a tough spot to be in!

[wombatclay]

Heyla!

I'm not Catholic now, but I was raised in a conservative Catholic family and have been in this exact situation more than once...

In terms of attending... if she hasn't asked you to attend then she may not want a "gathering at the town clerk's office". She may feel like she is respecting your feelings/beliefs by not inviting you to attend. If she has asked you to attend or be her witness that is a different matter. I'd suggest attending as a loving sister and declining for reasons of belief if asked to witness. But that's just me. Your priest may be able to give you peace on how much of a role is "ok".

And as for a party... perhaps a card with a promise of a future post Church wedding potluck if that story is well known in your family? I don't think you need to feel like you should throw a party now though. And if she invites you to a celebration I'd probably go but let her know (perhaps via that card?) that you're looking forward to the Church ceremony down the road.

In terms of what this means? Well, from a religious perspective this court house ceremony doesn't mean anything. If she has been receiving communion up till now (while living with her fiance outside of marriage) I don't think she'll stop after this ceremony. But if she is abstaining now and planning to begin after the legal marriage then perhaps suggest she speak with her priest about it?

good luck!

[Ofwait]

You might point out that in The Church's eyes it will be concidered an illicit (invalid) marriage, so unless there are legal conciderations...really, why bother?

[nurturebaby]

the Church does not teach against attending an 'invalid' wedding ceremony - this might help you out:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167154

an excerpt:
One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families.

Without knowing the exact specifics, it sounds as though your sister and her fiance are in fact doing what they feel is the right thing for them right now. If it were me, I would attend if they decided to invite guests to the courthouse, and just pray for them that they can be married in the Church as soon as possible. But she certainly won't need a lecture or guilt trip from you (not saying that's what you would do).

It also sounds like she is not very 'into' the faith - it's really really difficult to be a Catholic when you don't quite get the reasons behind or the teachings of the church. Perhaps you could invite her to attend a bible study with you, or to get involved in some way in order to reignite that flame.

Sending prayers for your sister and her fiance - that they have a lifetime full of true love and happiness!

[vegasgrl]

Originally Posted by adoremybabe

They want to be married NOW.

While the Church obviously won't recognize the courthouse wedding, the government certainly will - they can file joint taxes, have survivorship rights in any property interests, make medical decisions for one another if need be, etc. So I can see some point in being married NOW.

It also seems that your sister is aware that while the courthouse wedding will mean they are legally husband and wife, it will NOT mean they are husband and wife in the eye's of the Church, or in the eyes of God; otherwise they wouldn't even be considering the church wedding down the road, kwim? So she seems to already recognize that she won't be married NOW in that sense, but she still wants to do the courthouse thing now anyway. Does that make sense?

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a discussion with your sister about the distinct difference, and that if she wanted to be true to the Church she would not take communion since she's living in sin, even though she's living with her legal husband.

But I also don't think there's anything wrong with you being there for her big legal day to support her should she want you there. I mean, the courthouse wedding IS a big step, legally speaking, and also emotionally speaking, you know? Even though they won't be "married" sacramentally speaking, it's still a big deal for it's own reasons.

[elus0814]

My husband and I were married by ourselves at the town hall because he was in the Air Force and was leaving two months later. We had first gone to my childhood parish and were told that there was not enough time for pre-cana classes and should get married outside of the church. We did because we would have been apart for over a year if we didn't and I was without health insurance or a place to live. On our third anniversary we had a big church wedding. It was wonderful. I don't think simply not wanting to wait is a good enough reason.

My dad is a very conservative Catholic, he attends traditional rite mass. He was invited to the wedding of my cousin and choose not to attend because they were two baptized Catholics who were not being married in the Church when they easily could have been. He has told me that had my husband and I asked family members to be present at our town hall marriage that he would not have attended.

My husband and I do not think of our 'wedding' at town hall as when we were married. It was saying a few words and signing a piece of paper so I would have basic necessities. Our church wedding was the real one and I'm glad we did not have anyone at the first one because it would have made the real one less special.

[EFmom]

Having been raised Catholic, I'm astounded that you would consider not attending a wedding because you don't approve of your sister's choice of venue. I can understand not going because you haven't been specifically invited yet.

Your interpretation and practice of Catholicism as you see it is your business. What your sister chooses to do in regards to her religion and her wedding is her business. I'm sure she is aware of the fact that the church doesn't approve of her living with her partner, but there is no point at all in bringing up your disapproval other than to alienate her.

Your role in the situation should be to stay out of it. If she invites you and you want to go, go and be gracious. If you can't or won't go, that's up to you, but be aware that this may be the death of your relationship.

[Nitenites]

I think she's concerned about scandal: by attending the civil wedding, is the OP approving of the scandalous actions of her sister (ie, marrying outside the Church)? And I think she's got a pretty good understanding of Catholicism. The sin of any member of the Body of Christ affects us all. It is "her business."

I think I'd go the route of nuturebaby. (And have you been invited to attend?)

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by Nitenites

I think she's concerned about scandal: by attending the civil wedding, is the OP approving of the scandalous actions of her sister (ie, marrying outside the Church)? And I think she's got a pretty good understanding of Catholicism. The sin of any member of the Body of Christ affects us all. It is "her business."

I think I'd go the route of nuturebaby. (And have you been invited to attend?)

I guess I think the scandal would be in the OP's treatment of her sister. I strongly disagree that it is "her business." She is not her sister's keeper. Her sister is an adult who can make her own religious decisions.

As far as I can recall, the church doesn't practice shunning. Really, how far do you take this?

I am not Catholic although most of my family is. Some are more observant than others. I can guarantee that if the more self-righteous started down this sort of path, the result would not be pretty. If one of my siblings were to try to interfere in my personal religious beliefs, that would be the last conversation we would have.

I can envision all sorts of scenarios where one would have to avoid family events because one might not approve of the moral or ethical choices of family members. This is sounding not much at all like the church in which I was raised.

[nurturebaby]

Originally Posted by EFmom

I am not Catholic although most of my family is. Some are more observant than others. I can guarantee that if the more self-righteous started down this sort of path, the result would not be pretty. If one of my siblings were to try to interfere in my personal religious beliefs, that would be the last conversation we would have.

Being a Catholic is not easy. It's not self-righteousness that is motivating the OP - it's (hopefully) her concern for the spiritual well being for her sister. As Catholics, we are called to act if we are in a position to do so, when we see something happening that is harmful to a person, either physically, mentally or spiritually. It's okay if you don't recognize that her sister's marriage could be damaging spiritually because that is not your belief, but the Church teaches that an invalid marriage can be spiritually harmful for a couple. And the OP is Catholic, so this is a valid concern.

You're right in that we should not shun people, or judge people, or treat them unfairly and without love.

Catholics have the same obligation to act in an appropriate way when their brothers and sisters are in harms way, whether it's a situation like this that is damaging spiritually, or whether it's a genocide in a third world country. This can simply a prayer to our Lord if we are not in a position to help in another way, but we are obligated to act in some way - to just sit by and do nothing is to become an accomplice in something that is harmful to a person whom God loves.

That said, I do also think that care must be taken here to avoid alienating your sister and leaving her feeling judged, and the arguments that she is an adult capable of making her own decisions are very true. Once again, I would personally just encourage her to have the wedding in the Church asap and help with that in any way possible, including inviting her to attend a retreat or bible study or something to help her grow in her faith. But it all must be done with a loving heart - not a judgemental one.

[Shantimama]

As the Spirituality forum is designated for support-only threads, I am going to move this discussion to the religious Studies forum.

[carmel23]

I consider myself to strive to be a Catholic who is faithful to the Teachings of the Church.

But this is my take on this-- a Catholic marriage is between the man and woman getting married. The priest and even Christ are witnesses to this marriage. So if a Catholic couple has every intention of getting married in the Church, or having a convalidation ceremony, I don't see this as a morally grave thing. I agree with Nuturebaby's take on it...

A lot of it has to do with where your sister's heart is, and it sounds like it is in a good place.

Just urge her to make the arrangements for the convalidation ASAP. It doesn't have be a huge ordeal, and make sure she goes to confession before. Being supportive seems like it would help her have the marriage in the church as opposed to making her feel bad about it.

[InMediasRes]

Originally Posted by Nitenites

I think she's concerned about scandal: by attending the civil wedding, is the OP approving of the scandalous actions of her sister (ie, marrying outside the Church)? And I think she's got a pretty good understanding of Catholicism. The sin of any member of the Body of Christ affects us all. It is "her business."

While it is "her business", I think withdrawing support from her sister to show her disapproval is unkind, and would be much less effective than lovingly explaining her concern and attending to show her support.

Fear of scandal did not prevent Jesus from dining with sinners.

As my conservative Catholic MIL says, "There are my problems, and there are God's problems."

[Bluegoat]

I'm not Catholic, but I've been looking at this thread and had some thoughts.

One is, since you said they are already living together, it isn't clear to me why they need to hurry to get married right away? Maybe i missed something? Is it a tax thing or insurance? - if so, there can sometimes be other ways to get that taken care of if you are living together.

And, if they are living together, does having a civil marriage now and convalidating it later make much difference in the situation?

My other thought is that skipping the marriage prep is maybe an area to focus on. Although in some places it isn't always that great, I think it can be very valuable, especially to someone who hasn't got all the theory of a Christian or Catholic marriage down-pat.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I'm not Catholic, but I've been looking at this thread and had some thoughts.

One is, since you said they are already living together, it isn't clear to me why they need to hurry to get married right away? Maybe i missed something? Is it a tax thing or insurance? - if so, there can sometimes be other ways to get that taken care of if you are living together.

And, if they are living together, does having a civil marriage now and convalidating it later make much difference in the situation?

My other thought is that skipping the marriage prep is maybe an area to focus on. Although in some places it isn't always that great, I think it can be very valuable, especially to someone who hasn't got all the theory of a Christian or Catholic marriage down-pat.

Same questions here that Bluegoat raised. If you are a practicing Catholic then you will not believe that your sister is sacramentally married anyway even after a courthouse wedding. She will be civilly married but in the eyes of the Church she is still just living with her partner and isn't married. Generally the reason practicing Catholics do not attend this sort of marriage ceremony is because they don't believe a sacramental marriage is taking place so supporting the marriage is sort of moot since it isn't really happening, if that makes sense.

It sounds like your family is still very much involved and supportive of your sister even though she is not married and living with her partner. I'm honestly not sure what I would do in your situation, it is always tough when you love someone dearly and want to support them yet you do not actually support their choices.