Question for Catholics - Page 2

[moonshoes]

I think I am missing something here. We had our marriage convalidated by the Church after a civil marriage and it didn't cost anything and was arranged very quickly. Has your sister spoken with her priest and discussed this? She is certainly not alone in this problem and he as certainly handled it before. I find the first step for me is always going to my priest.

I will pray for you and your family and hope that it all works out well.

[adoremybabe]

Wow, so many responses. Thank you!

My sister and I had a really good conversation on Thursday. She was on her break at work so it was brief. I started talking to her about church wedding possibilities at her prompting and with her okay to do so. The tone in her voice told me that she isn't really 100% for the civil marriage. Since she was on break, I asked her if she wanted to talk later when she was done working and when my own DH was home to watch the kiddos. She said, "yes." We set up a time, I called, and she never called back. I tried several times throughout the next day to no avail.

We have 2 other sisters, one who jumps to action quickly. I think that she upset my engaged sister. So now the engaged sister has almost completely alienated herself.

I still do not know the reall reason for getting married so quickly. I agree with those of you whom have questioned the reason for getting married outside of the church because they are already living together. If she feels that it is still important enough to have the church wedding, I don't understand why she feels that the marriage by a judge is so important.

Maybe taxes and insurance are their reason but with their jobs, I can't see it helping them much at all. Pretty sure she isn't pregnant either.

I haven't been invited to attend the civil ceremony. I don't think that she'll invite me either. If she did, I would go. I spoke to my own priest and he as very helpful. If she did by some reason as me to be a witness, I'd decline for good reason.

Moon Shoes - I looked up the current cost in my sisters Diocese and the marriage prep class is $75 and the typical church/priest charge is $75. So the cost is very minimal. She can wear my dress. It's timeless, she likes it and it fits her. She should know by now that any one of us in the family would be thrilled to help her with food and cake for a small wedding. Flowers are easy.

Charbeau - We have all been trying very hard to look past my sister's living situation. She knows how we feel. It doesn't really even get talked about anymore because we know that it gets in the way of being a family.

For now, I will storm Heaven with prayers that she cancels her civil ceremony and proceeds with plans to get married in the church as soon as she can. If she does move ahead with the civil ceremony, I will still love and support her. I will continue to pray for her. I absolutely love the idea of sending a card with good wishes and a statement telling her that I am looking forward to her beautiful church wedding.

I did send her an email earlier today sending my support and love.

Thank you so much to all of you who took the time to reply. Your advice helped me come to what I believe is a well rounded decision in the matter.

[Tradd]

Question for OP: would your priest (or the one at the parish your sister might be get married at) marry her and her SO - if there's no civil marriage - without requiring them to live apart until after the wedding?

I know some priests require couples living together to live separately until the wedding, if they've already been living together. Other priests don't.

If that was the case (needing to live separately), I can understand (although not agree) with why someone might go for a civil ceremony over getting married in church.

[adoremybabe]

Originally Posted by Tradd

Question for OP: would your priest (or the one at the parish your sister might be get married at) marry her and her SO - if there's no civil marriage - without requiring them to live apart until after the wedding?

I know some priests require couples living together to live separately until the wedding, if they've already been living together. Other priests don't.

If that was the case (needing to live separately), I can understand (although not agree) with why someone might go for a civil ceremony over getting married in church.

The priest at the church that my sister and her fiance have joined will not allow them to lived together before marriage. I believe that this is a big reason as to why they are going for the civil marriage first.

The two moved in together mainly for convenience.

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by adoremybabe

The priest at the church that my sister and her fiance have joined will not allow them to lived together before marriage. I believe that this is a big reason as to why they are going for the civil marriage first.

The two moved in together mainly for convenience.

Ahh, that makes more sense. They might not have to actually move into separate homes. My friend who was living with her fiance just moved into the other bedroom until the wedding, since there was no way they could afford different places.

[cagnew]

My dh and I were faced with the exact situation. His sister, who is not Catholic, married a Catholic in a ceremony outside the church. He is very close to his sister. We did not attend the wedding. It caused a huge uproar. We still hear about it. However, we did the right thing. You are not permitted to attend. We talked to several priests about this, searched the ewtn website in the Q&A section and found several similar questions and the answers were the same.

Why would the Church say you cannot attend? Because the marriage wouldn't be recognized int he eyes of the church, so they would be (continuing) to live in sin. Your presence supprts their decision to remain in mortal sin. As a Catholic, you cannot ever support mortal sin. Remember what a mortal sin is and what it means to be in such a state- your soul is cut off from God. The Church teaches that if you die while in mortal sin, you cannot go to heaven. Strict? Yes. Difficult to accept? Yes.

Sometimes doing the right thing is very hard. Actually, most of the time doing the right thing is hard. Your refusal to attend (if invited) will be a good example to them, even if they don't understand and are angry. Showing them that God and faithfulness to His Church is more dear to you than even earthly family could encourage them to take their faithmore seriously.

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's hard. My husband actually cried when he realized that he could not go to his sisters wedding. It was the hardest thing he's ever done because he is very close to his family. Even harder than telling them he was converting to catholicism.

I will pray for you guys!

[cagnew]

[QUOTE=nurturebaby;14500127]the Church does not teach against attending an 'invalid' wedding ceremony - this might help you out:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167154

an excerpt:
One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families.

Without knowing the exact specifics, it sounds as though your sister and her fiance are in fact doing what they feel is the right thing for them right now. If it were me, I would attend if they decided to invite guests to the courthouse, and just pray for them that they can be married in the Church as soon as possible. But she certainly won't need a lecture or guilt trip from you (not saying that's what you would do).

QUOTE]

This is not official Church teaching. This is a persons outlook or opinion. True, the Church does not come out and say you can't attend (actually, She does in the baltimore catechism, but no one ever reads that anymore... of course, that dosen't mean the information in it is no longer valid), but it is easy to deduce why you should not attend. It's natural to want to justify an act that is wrong when it is a difficult situation involving a loved one. IN these matters, you have to consider their eternal soul, not their earthly emotions.

[phatchristy]

OK, I'm wondering, why is it a 'six month wait' to have a Catholic Wedding if they are both Catholic. Unless something has changed the main component was having completed the pre-wedding series.

When DH and I were married many years ago we had problems with his family (very unsupportive of our spiritual beliefs and pleaded with us to 'live together' like everyone else, I KID YOU NOT!). We put everything on hold, his situation with his parents ultimately did not work out. We had already waited 5 years to be together, I wasn't going to wait any longer than I had to. We found a date for a beautiful chapel at a Catholic School that we loved. It was a Friday, but I didn't care. We found a priest through the chapel and he was able to find a pre-wedding series that was held in a different part of the state over a weekend. We traveled to it.

Anyhow, we got everything planned and done in like 5 weeks! And, it was a beautiful, spiritual ceremony. The kind like everybody cries at.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

OK, I'm wondering, why is it a 'six month wait' to have a Catholic Wedding if they are both Catholic. Unless something has changed the main component was having completed the pre-wedding series.

I grew up Catholic (although I'm Eastern Orthodox now), and my home parish growing up in the 1970s/80s had a six-month wait even then. In talking to Catholic friends who've gotten married in the last 10-15 years, it's a combo of different factors.

*Pre-Cana (pre-marital classes) - not just the class through the parish or diocese, but some dioceses (such as Denver - or at least they did 5-6 years ago), require the engaged couple to also complete an NFP course *before* the wedding, and these courses are about 3 months in length, if I remember correctly.

*Some parishes also require multiple one-on-one meetings with a "mentor couple" in the parish, in addition to the pre-Cana classes.

*Getting an available date in parishes is simply difficult on shorter notice. They really are booked up in advance. Since most people want a Saturday wedding (and I've only recently begun to discover that some parishes will do Sunday weddings, something they used to not do when I was growing up), there are only so many available spots. The weddings have to be over a certain time before the late afternoon Saturday Mass. Friends have reported they asked for Saturday evening weddings and were turned out.

Since the reception halls are booked up so far in advance for prime dates, it simply makes sense that people are going to plan their weddings more in advance.

ETA: marriages are usually not performed during the six weeks of Lent. Not sure about the four weeks of Advent.

[BMG580]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

OK, I'm wondering, why is it a 'six month wait' to have a Catholic Wedding if they are both Catholic. Unless something has changed the main component was having completed the pre-wedding series.

Because Catholics believe that the sacrament of marriage is a lifetime commitment and one to not take lightly and one that cannot be undone (an annulment states that the sacrament never took place at all). 6 months of counseling with a priest and marriage prep-classes do not seem unreasonable to me considering the enormity of the step being taken for the couple.

[Tradd]

I have to note that the "six month wait" is not something exclusive to Catholicism. It's quite common among Orthodox parishes, and I've even seen it among more "liberal" churches, such as the Episcopalians. Churches, and I'm sure other faith traditions such as Judaism and Islam, want couples getting married to have premarital counseling of some sort, as this can really help a couple, and setting a date two months away is usually not conducive to careful premarital preparation.

[nurturebaby]

[QUOTE=cagnew;14534896]

Originally Posted by nurturebaby

the Church does not teach against attending an 'invalid' wedding ceremony - this might help you out:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=167154

an excerpt:
One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families.

Without knowing the exact specifics, it sounds as though your sister and her fiance are in fact doing what they feel is the right thing for them right now. If it were me, I would attend if they decided to invite guests to the courthouse, and just pray for them that they can be married in the Church as soon as possible. But she certainly won't need a lecture or guilt trip from you (not saying that's what you would do).

QUOTE]

This is not official Church teaching. This is a persons outlook or opinion. True, the Church does not come out and say you can't attend (actually, She does in the baltimore catechism, but no one ever reads that anymore... of course, that dosen't mean the information in it is no longer valid), but it is easy to deduce why you should not attend. It's natural to want to justify an act that is wrong when it is a difficult situation involving a loved one. IN these matters, you have to consider their eternal soul, not their earthly emotions.

Thanks - I didn't think the Church took an official stance on this issue one way or another - but not due to the person's opinion that I quoted (I was posting that because I thought it contained some wisdom for her to help her in making her decision - not because I thought that her words were official Church teaching)

But I do believe that if it were so easy to deduce why she should not attend, the Church would come out and say that.

[adoremybabe]

My sister was married on Friday. The only way that I found out for sure was Facebook. She changed her relationship status. No one from my family was invited to attend. She and I are still on speaking terms but she doesn't want to talk to 2 of my sisters.

My newly married sister has blown some of the reactions way out of proportion. That's how she is though. I am just hoping that things calm down soon and we can start over. She has burned a few bridges I think.

What is, is. I can't change how she wants to live her life. I can only support her and who she is, but not what she does. I will acknowledge that she is married legally but, she hasn't been married in the Church and in my life, that is what is most important.

[cagnew]

nuturebaby: once upon a time, it would have been easy for the typical Catholic to figure this out. it was a no-brainer. but that was quite a while ago. i don't know why the church doesn't come out and say things point-blank. i don't know why there are so many vague statements made on various subjects.

actually, I have a pretty guess as to why this is, but i don't have the energy to get into it now.

adoremybabe: sounds like a good conclusion to me. she is still your sister, no matter what she does, and you should still love her. i am going through something with my sister as well, and i will have to make the same decision. love her, hate the sin.