What would you do for my 5 yr old?

[Raene]

Honestly I can't get too mad at what she does b/c I was exactly the same way. I can hear my mom's comments in my ears when my DD does something.

Her biggest things are that she doesn't seem to learn from her mistakes. For one thing, she NEVER finds herself at fault. Is this normal kid behavior? She refuses to ever admit she was wrong. She'll say "sorry" but because it means nothing, we've asked her not to say it. We want a change, not just a "sorry" thrown in for good measure. One time I asked her to say "I made a mistake and will change it" and it took her about 30 minutes before she would even say something like that, because she was not willing to see that SHE was the one at fault. She likes to say, "well, you..." and blame whoever else is handy.

So that's one thing, but the other thing is that she doesn't learn the next time. She will continue to make a mistake over and over. I'm not into punishments that don't fit, like taking a stuffed animal away when she does something unrelated, because I want her to be learning and not resenting us, which is what I often did myself when the punishment didn't fit. But this often leaves me doing nothing other than having a talk with her about how things "should be done" which doesn't seem to change her behavior.

The two things she is always forgetting right now are cleaning up her dishes at the table when she's finished eating, and not barging into our room making tons of noise in the morning.

Does anyone have any ideas or books to refer me to? I'm so at a loss. I'd honestly rather do nothing than a time-out or other non-related punishment, but my DH is rather strict and thinks I am making things worse by not doing anything. He is all for taking things away, and maybe I should let him to see that it doesn't work (DD will even say, "Well, you can take my toy away" when she does something wrong...it seems to mean nothing to her).

[Cavy]

okay, just my 2 cents:

I think your idea of Sorry is too ambitious. Sorry around here means 'I recognise I did wrong'. It isn't a promise of future reform or a suggestion of genuine regret.

When she says "Well you..." you have 2 choices. You can reply with "Okay, let's talk about how I could have done better." Then when you finish with that you have a BIG green light to talk about her part in the disagreement. OR you can say, "We'll talk about my mistakes in a moment, but right now I want to talk about what you need to do better". IME, it will be faster if you just own up to your own mistakes as quickly and humbly as possible. That isn't letting her 'win'; it's modelling to her how you want Her to respond.

Bad habits: you have to be the adult here and remember for her. YOU watch like a hawk for the moment when you expect her to remember the plate, and if she doesn't, you get straight on her case (in a nice way) and make sure she does the expected action. When the habit is ingrained, you'll find you wont' have to remind her constantly. As for the morning barging, you have to take her out gently (pretend to be the world's nicest most patient mom at this point, no matter how much you want to throttle her) and take her back to her room. You could get her a bunny clock that doesn't open its eyes until the time when she IS allowed to barge in and make a racket. Or you could reward her with chocolate if she keeps out until Bunny's eyes are opened.

Look at it from her point of view, though, she is happy to be alive and come tell you good morning -- because she loves you. Try not to suppress that vitality.

[sunnmama]

I recommend the book "How to talk to kids....". It has a lot of conversational strategies that help you avoid all the traps of "but.." and "well you...".

But I think you need to adjust your expectations, too. It is normal for a 5-6 yo to need reminders for things like taking their dishes to the sink. One recommendation in the The "how to talk..." books is a simple "Dd! Dishes." And that is it. No comment about forgetting (again), or explanation.

Barging into your room....is she up alone? Yeah, I'd expect her to come looking for company. And little kids are noisy. Around here, one parent would hurry up and go to the living room with the awake child so the sleeping baby doesn't wake up. But the child needs some company AND a place to make a reasonable amt of "awake" noise.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Being "at fault" is more painful for children than it is for adults (usually), because adults have the ability to separate their behavior from who they are. Children don't.

Therefore, and very rightly so, children are much less willing to admit to being at fault for something. It isn't necessary that they acknowledge that they are at fault, anyway. All that is needed is to help the child find a different way to do something, one that doesn't cause problems for anyone else.

Maybe you could give some examples of when she doesn't learn from her mistakes. There's many different things at work that could be labeled "mistakes" but are motivated by different things, and really aren't mistakes at all.

It could be that for her, its not a mistake - she is getting what she wants from her behavior. Its only a mistake from the viewpoint of others. For example, when my DD was 2, she liked to pour out her drink onto the floor or table then splash her hands in the liquid, making a huge mess. It wasn't a mistake from her viewpoint because it was great fun. It was only a problem from our viewpoint. So trying to get her to acknowledge her mistake wouldn't have worked. What did work was finding something more interesting than spilling her drink (a fancy straw) and providing other opportunities to have that sensory play, but mostly just waiting til she grew past that phase.

Another kind of "mistake" is when the outcome they want is different from what they are getting, but they keep trying the same ineffective behavior to get it. They get stuck. DD wants the cat to play with her, but she keeps doing the same thing - grabbing the cat too roughly, which makes the cat run away, or hiss at her. She doesn't seem to learn on her own that this behavior isn't working for her. Its taking me repeatedly showing her how to play with the cat (get the feather toy, gently wave it like this, etc) before she starts to do it on her own. When a child is stuck repeating the same ineffective behavior over and over, its helpful to show her, also over and over, a better way to get what she wants, until the new behavior becomes the habit and the old behavior is abandoned. The key here is simply time and practice.

As for being forgetful, just like with adults, it helps to set up the environment so that she is reminded. For taking her dishes to the sink, it could be that she will just need verbal reminders every time for a year. It might also help to have a chart on the wall with a picture of dishes on it, and you both check off each time. There doesn't have to be a reward associated with the chart (but there could be if you wanted), just the act of checking off the activity once done is often enough.

For waking you in the morning, my almost-five year old would never get not to do this. If we didn't cosleep the first thing she would want to do is reconnect with me in the morning after spending the night alone. If it were a problem for me, I'd probably start going to bed earlier so that I could be available for her when she wakes. But if not that, then maybe you could set up an activity for her after she goes to bed but before you do so that it is a surprise for her in the morning. You could put out playdoh and utensils on the table, for example, or a craft project. You could set out a bowl, a measured amount of cereal, and pour some milk into a smaller cup for her to make cereal and milk in the morning. The expectation is that she would do her activity and give you time to wake more fully. Then when you are awake, you could show her how to come into bed with you quietly and gently for a little cuddle time.

[Raene]

Originally Posted by Cavy

Bad habits: you have to be the adult here and remember for her. YOU watch like a hawk for the moment when you expect her to remember the plate, and if she doesn't, you get straight on her case (in a nice way) and make sure she does the expected action.

Ahh, this is my biggest problem. I never notice until many hours later. DH is great about this, and DD knows when he's around she'd better do things. But when it's just me, she knows I won't notice things and that she'll get away with more.

[elmh23]

Originally Posted by Raene

Ahh, this is my biggest problem. I never notice until many hours later. DH is great about this, and DD knows when he's around she'd better do things. But when it's just me, she knows I won't notice things and that she'll get away with more.

I'm a lot like you in this. I don't always notice the dishes still on the table right away, but when I do, I mention it to my kids. They always just say "I forgot" and do it, but I can't really blame them cause I forgot too.

As for quiet time in the morning, could you ask her to stay in the living room until one of you gets up? This is what we do. We made sure that dd could turn on the lights (we have an adapter on our light switch made for people in wheelchairs that she could reach from a young age) and she'll happily play in there until I get up.

[Raene]

Originally Posted by elmh23

They always just say "I forgot" and do it, but I can't really blame them cause I forgot too.

What a great thing to say. Thanks for that thought.

Originally Posted by elmh23

As for quiet time in the morning, could you ask her to stay in the living room until one of you gets up? This is what we do. We made sure that dd could turn on the lights (we have an adapter on our light switch made for people in wheelchairs that she could reach from a young age) and she'll happily play in there until I get up.

We do ask her but she always "forgets" with an "I won't do it again". I think she's just bored, but new crafts/toys don't always help.

[elmh23]

What time is she getting up and what time are you getting up? I know you just had a new baby, so I understand trying to get as much sleep as possible, but would it be possible for your DH to get up with her, or 30 minutes or so after her? Also, I have been known to put on a tv program or movie and go back to sleep for awhile. Usually only when I'm sick or have a new baby that just had a rough night, but hey, it works.

[denimtiger]

Honestly? It seems like there are a couple of things with these issues.

5 years old is awfully young to be expected to be quiet and alone in the morning. (Understandable, but honestly being with mad company is sometimes better than being with no company when you're little.)

If she is leaving her dishes and you are not noticing until hours later, is she eating alone? With no interaction with and supervision from you, these things are going to happen. And... are the dishes really that important to YOU, or are they important to dh? Because if you don't notice until hours later, then I'm guessing it's not your biggest priority. If it isn't that important to you, it's not going to be important to your daughter when she's around you. Your life might be much easier if you and dh came to an agreement about how he's welcome to enforce taking care of dishes when he's with dd, but that it's not a stress that YOU and dd need in your relationship. You can ask dd to do it when you notice and she's with you to get the attention and feedback for it.