Feel bad for my nephew but feel bad for my sister.... - Page 3

[frontierpsych]

I feel pity for all involved. For the baby having to go through having a circ, for the sister for having a low blow to her PPD, and for the BIL being so traumatized by a more than likely unnecessary circ that he felt the need to continue the cycle by having it done to his son. The nurses were rude and unprofessional, but I can not fault them at all for that reaction. If something feels as viscerally wrong to someone as circumcision does to so many, they are going to have a strong reaction to it.

[Lkg4dmcrc]

I am generally confused. If you gave them all of the circ info before hand and then they still decided to go back a week later and do it, why do you believe that they would be swayed by nurses in a hospital to not do it just because they were polite about it? They already had the information and they chose to do it, right?

Doctors and nurses speak poorly to patients. I witness it on a daily basis.

[BugMacGee]

When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside. And it's flippin discouraging.


We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that.

[Murihiku]

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside. And it's flippin discouraging.


We DO educate. We DO use tact.[/B] And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that.

See, I admire you and your approach very much. I wish those nurses had been like you.

[laurelg]

I think "The Case Against Circumcision" is the wrong place to condemn nurses who spoke out strongly against circumcision. Maybe they could have been more tactful, maybe they hurt your sister's feelings, but the core of what they did was right, and I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for the opposing view here.

[BugMacGee]

Ideally, in a perfect world, we are all tactful, professional people. Some people are more outspoken than others.

MAybe these nurses have had the same kinds of experiences with circ that I have. Ones that have made me literally sob in corners (also unprofesional, hey, i'm human) Maybe they were having a moment of "unprofessional" humanity. It happens sometimes.

[ticklemegreen]

I can't believe some of the responses you are getting The nurses comment was completely out of line (and unprofessional as well) As a pp maybe if the nurse would have calmly explained her, view your sister would have changed her mind. I know a lot of people trust doctors/nurses opinons more than those who are not in the medical profession. (not that they necissarily should!) I feel horrible for your sister and of course horrible for your little nephew.

[KaylaBeanie]

Originally Posted by Murihiku

I've been anti-circumcision ever since I knew what it was, but the fanaticism I've found on this forum has actually made me more tolerant of those who practice it, just as an emotional reaction.

I don't believe those nurses had purely good intentions. They probably thought they did, but I would bet their concern for babies is all tangled up with the pleasure of being self-righteous and rude.

Moreover, it seems as if their action had no good effect. The baby was circumcized anyway, right? And now someone is more miserable than she was.

So, no purely good intention, no good outcome--I judge their actions negatively.

This.

Nobody won here, except the nurses who got the last word in. The poor baby is still circumcised, the poor mom is suffering...what was accomplished? I think circumcision is wrong all around, but there's a far cry between a woman who has her son circumcised because she wants him to have a "pretty" penis like dad's, and the woman like this who was confused, depressed, and was genuinely trying to make what she saw as the best decision for her son. Yes, the end result is the same, but vilifying the mothers and praising these rude, tactless nurses just makes us look like class A jerks.

My sympathy always lies with the poor boys first, but situations like this woman's will do nothing but convince people that intactivists are crazy and mean. This was an all around crappy situation made even crappier by a few loudmouths.

[SleeplessMommy]

Sure, the nurses did wrong.

The situation you describe - where the Mom does not want to circ and takes her son in anyway, due to husband pressure - is very high risk for PPD. The Mom was not supported in her desire to protect her son. With a one week old, vocalization of pain is going to be very obvious. The Mom is an an area where only 10% cric. Of course there is going to be maternal regret and PPD.

I am sorry.

[*Erin*]

Originally Posted by BugMacGee

When you guys have 1) had to hold pressure on a baby's penis for an hour in hopes that his circ would stop bleeding (It didn't BTW had to use topical Epinepherine)
2) seen a baby's penis turn black minutes after a circ (I was also his nurse later when we took him off life support because he had an fatal imune deficiency)
3) seen babies over and over again who won't breastfeed because they are in pain due to circ (much to the confusion of their parents)
4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

THEN, I will get that YOU personally would never talk to parents who make this decision this way. I hold my tongue because it's "professional" and "tactful" But it hurts inside. And it's flippin discouraging.


We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

I'm an eternally grateful for my particular patient population in my low circ state (yay foreign born and midwifery patients) But still, it's an issue I confront at work.

Yes I'm passionate about it. I absolutely will not apologize for that.

good for you, mama. the world needs hcps like you. thank you.

as for the op's situation, i too am very sad for all concerned, most especially your poor little nephew. although it was unprofessional, really, i can't fault the nurse too much for being frank. who knows what horrors she's seen related to circ. maybe she just lost it.

i do think she should've chosen her words more carefully, and she should've taken the moment to educate instead of just being angry. im sad for your sister that this was the tone of her baby's first days in the world, and i hope that she has been able to find some sort of healing. i hope her baby is ok, too.

what a crappy situation for everyone.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by KaylaBeanie

This.

Nobody won here, except the nurses who got the last word in. The poor baby is still circumcised, the poor mom is suffering...what was accomplished? I think circumcision is wrong all around, but there's a far cry between a woman who has her son circumcised because she wants him to have a "pretty" penis like dad's, and the woman like this who was confused, depressed, and was genuinely trying to make what she saw as the best decision for her son. Yes, the end result is the same, but vilifying the mothers and praising these rude, tactless nurses just makes us look like class A jerks.

My sympathy always lies with the poor boys first, but situations like this woman's will do nothing but convince people that intactivists are crazy and mean. This was an all around crappy situation made even crappier by a few loudmouths.

I have to concur with a lot of what Kayla said as well as others. On the one hand what the nurses said is what that little voice inside me says often when I hear or read about this. But that doesn't help the boy which is why that voice needs to be filtered. Perhaps if they were gentler in their approach she could have been talked out of it. Perhaps not but getting an ear full like that guarantees no success. It's true nobody won here.

[rlmueller]

[4) Taken care of the poor post circ baby that screams every time he pees.

BTDT=check


We DO educate. We DO use tact. And still parents do it because "Everyone else does" (they don't bother to find out this isn't true!!!), or "his dad is"

Maybe you do--they did not--you are unable to speak for all nurses everywhere. There are good ones who paid attention to the patient teaching section of their careplans--and those who did not.

[BaMo]

I'm glad the nurses spoke out. Maybe if we had more nurses like that in my high circ area less baby boys would not have to suffer needlessly.

[BugMacGee]

I'm curious if this would provoke such outrage if these people weren't nurses.

These weren't THIS baby's nurses. It wasn't part of their job to do teaching with someone who wasn't indeed their patient. If they are anything like most of the nurses I know, they barely have time to get teaching done on their own patients. Providing adequate intact info takes time. Time these people probably didn't have.

Again, I'm not condoning what they said. But I think expecting them to provide education is totally unrealistic given the circumstances.

Providing intact info is a tricky thing to do without hurting someone. If this mom had been educated by these nurses, don't you think she would still feel even worse having her baby circ'ed? Education isn't the magic circ panacea. It doesn't necessarily work the way we all want it to. Truly.


This whole issue is painful.

[lawmama1984]

Originally Posted by Fellow Traveler

Your story has me so conflicted and I think illustrates how hard this struggle is for many of us. We must condemn the practice but at the same time it could cause incidents like the one you describe. And while you don't want to hurt someone close to you (like a sibling) you want to make sure they don't hurt someone else close to you either. It's just so messed up.

This.

I am so sorry for your nephew and I also hope that your SIL is able to work through her PPD issues. This is a very tough issue, and I can see where everyone who has responded thus far is coming from.

[Goodmom2008]

Originally Posted by hillymum

And his poor mom!

"Poor" mom didn't protect her baby. The only victim here is the innocent baby who had his choice taken away from him simply because his father is ignorant and his mom refused to stand up to him.

In case you haven't noticed, I am very against circ. and have no sympathy for parents who do that to their child. Fortunately, my ex came around before my son was born. But one thing I can say for sure is that even if he hadn't, my son would still be intact today.

[MaterPrimaePuellae]

Originally Posted by laurelg

I think "The Case Against Circumcision" is the wrong place to condemn nurses who spoke out strongly against circumcision. Maybe they could have been more tactful, maybe they hurt your sister's feelings, but the core of what they did was right, and I wouldn't expect to find sympathy for the opposing view here.

yes, I agree with Laurel.

First, maybe that was bad circ day at their hospital. Slightly OT but related: When my DD was born, the nurse came in and instructed me in how to use the digital thermometer, including a lesson on Farenheit/Celsius. She mentioned that lots of people don't know the difference and accidentally switch back and forth between the two, and I (admittedly, rather tactlessly) made a joke about people calling and saying, "My baby must be dead" because they were accidentally taking temp with Celsius. So she froze immediately and said, pretty harshly, "We do not joke about dead babies here." Now, I was a giddy mom of a newborn, and a little offended that she was grouping me with the "people who don't know that two (well, three) temp scales exist" group, so I didn't even think about it as a joke about dead babies; in my mind, I was joking about inept thermometer usage. It turns out that a baby had been stillborn the day DD was born, so emotions were raw from that. I felt pretty bad about it afterwards when I realized how my "joke" must have sounded to her.

Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and not circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son! "

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by MaterPrimaePuellae

Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and not circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son! "

if people never took things personally, then we could always share info about the reality of circ. unfortunately, in this & other cases, people choose to take the info personally & hear nothing else. "how dare you question my parenting decisions?," or "can you believe she said i was 'mutilating' my son?" how many boys would be spared if this were the case? maybe the OP's nephew? maybe my poor nephews?

sus

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by MaterPrimaePuellae

Second, I wonder if this mom would feel differently about the nurse's behavior if she had changed her mind and not circumcised her son. I mean, I can imagine a mom coming to this board and telling this story in a few months like, "Thank goodness for these nurses, they saved my son! "

I couldn't agree more. My son is intact, but I deeply regret partually vaccinating him. If I came across a nurse who would have told me something like "I have nothing to do with poisoning babies with vaccines" I know that it would ABSOLUTELY stop me from giving him the shots, making me going home and research it like crazy. Needless to say, I would have been forever greatful to this nurse because she would have spared me a life-time regret .

[LavenderMae]

Originally Posted by laurelg

I'm sorry your sister had PPD, but I LOVE what those nurses said. LOVE it.