Need Border Collie advice

[Yooper]

I have posted on here before about my ILs, their dogs, our visits, and dd. The issue has come up again but slightly modified and I need a little advice.

Dd is 6, well behaved, good with animals, and slightly fearful of large dogs. ILs live 10 hours away and we stay with them when we visit. They have three rescued border collies. I have only "met" one of them a few years ago. These are their first dogs. FIL has cancer and we are trying very hard not to cause them any more stress than they already have.

All three dogs have not been trained very well. They all get on couches/beds, get food off the table, JUMP anyone that comes in the door, etc.... Based on what I saw with the first dog and what has been reported by other relatives, the dogs do not seem to understand the people/dog order. Annoying, but not really "dangerous".....

Until.....

The second dog they adopted is very skitterish. This dog bit FIL in the face while FIL was hugging the dog. He believes that the bite was his fault because this dog never liked being hugged and "warned him" before biting. The bite was serious enough to require a ride in an ambulance and minor reconstructive surgery. I will not trust this dog. Ever. If he could bite his "master" then there is no way dd is going to be around him. This was almost two years ago and there have been no more bites that we know of.

We made it clear, after MUCH drama, that dd would not be around this dog. We offered to stay at a hotel, pay to kennel the dog(s), or have them agree to make a plan in which the dog and dd were not in contact during our visit. They chose kennel but did not allow us to pay. We have honestly avoided visiting because each visit brings up the entire fight again. Having been through this 3 times now, the fighting and drama are just too much.....

Since the last fight, they adopted ANOTHER rescue border collie. This is now three!!!!!

So, after avoiding their house for an entire year (to prevent dog drama), we decided to try it again. It is obvious that visits from everyone has gone way down as the dog population has gone up. Keep in mind that I do LIKE my ILs and do WANT to visit. This is a painful time for them and I do want to be able to visit more. Dd used to stay there alone which is now out of the question Sad all around. We announced that we would be there for Tday. MIL instantly asked if we still had "issues" with the dogs. Dh made it clear that the same rules apply. It all sounded good.

A few days later we get an email from them PLEADING to "allow" them to keep one dog during the visit. The first one. This dog does not have any history of biting or aggression. She does jump and is somewhat rough.

I have reservations about agreeing to this, although admittedly, most are not safety-related. For one, I fear that "giving in" to the one dog is just going to make the issue bigger for the next visit. Also, I really really REALLY dislike being jumped on. Hate it. ILs know this and knew it before they adopted the first dog. But, what I am asking about is the safety factor here.

I want to know a few things about border collies. I know they are herding dogs, are very high energy, and they like to work. ILs claim the dogs are around children "all of the time" which means some of their friends have their kids with them when they come to dinner or parties. Will a BC react differently to a child that is "living" in the house and will potentially be wandering around alone after dark to go to the bathroom? Is it more likely going to try to establish a "herding relationship" with a small person who is clearly not leaving after a while?

Is it more dangerous for a dog to be ill-trained if it is a working breed rather than a mutt? Dd is around dogs a lot, mostly mutts, and I never feel as nervous as I do around this dog. While our friends' dogs are not necessarily well-trained either, they do seem to know who is in charge and listen when told to not jump (or other things). I had a sense of unpredictability around this dog that has me on edge that I do not feel around other dogs. However, that is just too easily explained away with my dislike of dogs.

Lastly, dd is now 6. The last time we seriously considered allowing the dog to be around dd, she was 3. She is old enough now to be relied on to not do certain things and her head is now taller than the dog (when not jumping on her anyway). Am I wrong to feel a little more relaxed about it? Are there things she/we can do to make the people/dog order obvious to this dog even if it is not well-trained?

I want to be 100% sure that there are legitimate safety issues before we make this decision. If there are not, then it will be perceived that this is really about our "dog annoyance" rather than safety. And while, yes, I would prefer to not have to be around them, I would not make this painful time any more painful with a minor concern like this.

As a side note, I really REALLY wish they would have considered the impact their dog farm was going to have on family harmony. Choosing a less jumpy and high energy breed or just plain old mutts would likely have resulted in an unchanged visiting pattern. It is not just us. BIL and SIL are also avoiding visits just because they do not like to be constantly harassed by jumping, licking, BIG dogs.

[Ola_]

First, let me say that dogs don't like being hugged - many will tolerate it, but not all. And a dog that is shy should definitely not be treated this way. I assume you've taught your daughter not to behave that way around dogs since she is around them frequently?

Have you actually seen how they act around your daughter? I would certainly ask that the dogs get extra exercise during your visits (perhaps you or your DH could help with that?) to help them be calmer. If the dogs are crate-trained that will also help by containing them when they're too excited and giving them a safe spot to retreat to (which your daughter should never bother them in, of course).

As a pet owner, I feel that it's a lot to ask someone to kennel (I'm guessing you mean like a boarding kennel?) their pets while you visit. It's certainly something I would never do but clearly your in-laws really want you to visit in order to agree to do it.

[betsyj]

I wouldn't assume there are people/dog order problems. I would chalk it up to people not training their dog problems. This is often the case with people who adopt rescue dogs-they try to make up for past abuse or neglect and shower love on the dogs but don't realize that love includes training (or management in the case of the second skittesh dog).

It is clear you don't like dogs and that is fine. But, your IL's clearly DO like dogs and the company they offer. I must gently say it seems rather unfair of you to think they should deny themselves this companionship because you don't like them.

If I were in your shoes I would consider this my cross to bear. I would insist the shy dog who bit be crated or shut in a room while my kid was visiting for everyone's safety. But, I would also stay at a hotel rather then insist someone kennel their dogs.

[Yooper]

I think I was unclear in my first post....

We did not ask them to kennel their dogs. What we did say is that the second dog (the dog that bit FIL in the face) was not to be in contact with dd. This I will not budge on. I do not care if dogs like being hugged or not. And actually, if anything it further proves my point that ILs do not have very good judgment when it comes to their dogs. The dog bit his master. DD will not be around that dog. End of story.

We suggested several options, one of which was to kennel the dog at our expense. Other options included us staying at a hotel or separating dd and dog on their property. They chose to kennel as they did not want us to stay elsewhere and did not think keeping them separated within the house was going to be possible. The dog(s) will howl and bark if kept in a separate room or outside. It makes ILs sad and I can understand that. They chose to kennel all of the dogs rather than just the one dog in question because they felt it would be hard on the dogs to be away from each other.

Now that story has changed. They are still willing to kennel the dog I have issue with. Now, they do want to separate the dogs and have one dog at home, the dog they have had the longest. Now that they have had dogs for 4 years, we have seen that the dogs are not trained and do not know their order in the house. This gives me NEW concerns about any dog in this situation being around my dd. Even a dog with no prior biting history. I am coming here to see if I have a legitimate concern that no training + border collie (smart herding dog) + owners who do not have history of good dog judgment + 6 yo = bad idea. If people here who know dogs better than I do think that this is not a legitimate concern, we will tell them having the one dog there is not a problem. In fact, I totally expect that it would be OK, but am checking here first since I know nothing about dogs, especially border collies.

The dogs are not crate trained. They do not even own crates. We would be more than happy to help exercise dog(s). They have a HUGE fenced backyard as well. Dd does know not to hug dogs and as much as possible we plan to supervise all child/dog interaction. But she also knows that their dog hurt her grandpa quite seriously. We have been very careful not to talk about the dog issue when she is around, but she has seen his scars and he has told her what happened. I worry that she might act skittery around the dog which IME makes dogs act a little different. And she is 6. She still occasionally squeals, jumps around, runs, and does other things that a herding dog might go bonkers over. She also gets up about a million times in the night to pee. If she forgets to wake someone to go with her, she will essentially be "unsupervised" with the dog.

And lastly, is it really normal for dogs to jump ALL OVER everyone that comes in the house? Big dogs? Three of them? Even when the owners are telling them not to? And the thing that really stinks is that it is every time you come in the house, not just when you are "new". if I go out to the garage to get something and come back in, the whole jumping thing starts all over again. To the point of ripping clothing. it is really quite ridiculous and potentially dangerous for someone small like dd.

[betsyj]

I completely agree with you about the dog that bit. I would not allow my child to be around a dog like that. As to the other two it is hard to say from a safety standpoint. BC's are not usually a breed I would consider child friendly, or even adult friendly to be honest. They can often be quite stand offish of people in general and have very clear ideas of personal space (as your FIL found out).

It sounds like the dogs are bored and have made quite a fun (for them) game of jumping and herding people who come in (ripping clothes suggests they are nipping at people as well?). Clearly, howling when confined has lead to them being allowed out so the behavior is reinforced making confinement more difficult, the dogs more hyper and out of control, and around and around you go.

I myself can not fathom why people would want to live with dogs like this. I own a bc mix and when we have groups of people over she is crated or in the bedroom. It is safer for everyone-especially for my sweet little dog.

I do have to revise my first post to you after reading your second post. These are not dogs I would be comfortable having my ds around.

I would still ask only that they board or otherwise confine the dogs for Thanksgiving Day. I would stay in a hotel. While I would want dd to be able to run around freely on Turkey Day I would try to find a middle ground and closely supervise the rest of the time.

[Yooper]

I have only had direct experience with the oldest dog, the dog they want to have there. Dh has been there by himself with all three dogs several times. The "ripping" is from their nails. IL's jackets all have scratches and small rips on the front. Dh, who often visits when on business trips, has taken to changing in the car before entering the house. They do not "nip" at clothing but dh says one or two of them will "mouth" your hands but not with any sort of pressure. ILs say these dogs are around kids a lot but dh says he just cannot imagine anyone smaller than an adult being able to stay standing through the "greeting".

I personally favor the hotel idea. We stay in a hotel when visiting my mother for completely different reasons. We have offered this as a solution every time this discussion comes up. There are even other relatives in the same town we could stay with. ILs, MIL especially, is adamant that she wants her granddaughter to be there the whole time and is NOT OK with the hotel thing. I agree that kenneling beloved pets is hard. I certainly do not think it is the best option that we have the choice of. This is what ILs have chosen over us staying elsewhere or finding a way to separate dog/child in the house.

There is definitely a "showering with love" thing here. ILs are not being lazy by not training these dogs. They just feel bad, do not really know what they are doing, and enjoy seeing the dogs babied. These dogs will grab the food off your plate at the dining room table if you are not actively keeping them from doing so. It is beyond annoying.

However, "annoying", I can handle. I just need to know if there is enough of a risk to dd to disallow the situation they are suggesting to happen. Is an ill-trained border collie a real "risk" or just annoying? And if there is a real risk, does anyone have some resources they could point me to so that I can show them why I am legitimately concerned. Honestly, I know they care about dd and I feel that they think they are making wise decisions when it comes to kids and their dogs. But I really do not trust their judgment anymore after the biting incident. They STILL think the dog that bit is fine to be around kids. Call me crazy, but I think they are NUTS!!!! As much as this situation currently sucks and involves a lot of hurt feelings, I am pretty sure I would never ever forgive them if they told me their dog was "fine" around kids then proceeded to bite dd the way their dog bit FIL.

[Noelle C.]

Originally Posted by Yooper

JUMP anyone that comes in the door, etc.... Based on what I saw with the first dog and what has been reported by other relatives, the dogs do not seem to understand the people/dog order. Annoying, but not really "dangerous".....

A dog that jumps all over people CAN be dangerous sometimes. A big dog can knock someone over.

Originally Posted by Yooper

He believes that the bite was his fault because this dog never liked being hugged and "warned him" before biting.

He's right. He continued to do something when getting warnings from the dog. He would have been better to back off and slowly work on this area rather than continuing to hug the dog.

Originally Posted by Yooper

Is it more dangerous for a dog to be ill-trained if it is a working breed rather than a mutt?

Mutts can have unpredictable behavior as well. You don't know if that ill-trained mutt is half pit from fighting stock or what. You take a chance no matter what when a dog is ill-trained. Personally I'd be generally more afraid of an ill-trained mastiff or an ill-trained mutt of unknown lineage/parenting/breeding than an ill-trained border collie.

Working dogs need to be able to run and get out that energy. Penning it up is only going to make any problems worse.

Originally Posted by Yooper

Lastly, dd is now 6. The last time we seriously considered allowing the dog to be around dd, she was 3. She is old enough now to be relied on to not do certain things and her head is now taller than the dog (when not jumping on her anyway). Am I wrong to feel a little more relaxed about it? Are there things she/we can do to make the people/dog order obvious to this dog even if it is not well-trained?

Nope. You're not wrong. You're reevaluating how much your daughter can handle as she grows older. You're not going to have the same rules for her when she's 6 as when she's 3, or when she's 16 as when she's 6. If you think she can follow a few ground rules, such as not petting the dog or giving it food without you right there, then it might not be a bad idea to go ahead and allow this one dog for now. If all goes well, perhaps having the third dog net time. If that goes well, have the middle dog join the group with the understanding that the slightest bit of aggression means kennel-time.

Originally Posted by Yooper

Choosing a less jumpy and high energy breed or just plain old mutts would likely have resulted in an unchanged visiting pattern.

As said, breed/mutt doesn't matter. If a mutt had bitten your FIL, you'd probably claim if it was a non-mutt.... The problem comes down to they have dogs they don't train.

[Yooper]

Thanks everyone for the replies! Your replies as well as a chance for me to spell out my feelings has really helped.

We did come to a decision!

Since the original agreement was that only the middle dog (the dog that bit) was not to be in contact with dd, I feel it would be really unfair to "change our minds" now and say that she can be around none of the dogs. So, we are going to say that this is OK. We will work with dd up until the visit about dog rules and see if we cannot ask ILs to confine the dog during the night when dd may wake and leave her room to go to the bathroom. The dogs all sleep in bed with them so if they are willing to just shut their door...... We will also see if they will also agree to finding a way to keep the dog from jumping on dd when she comes in the door. They agreed to this before when dd was younger (before the dog ban) but did not follow through. I think we will have to make it very clear that this is non-negotiable. I wish there were a way to request the same thing for myself

Unfortunately, SIL and BIL are already annoyed that we are backing off of the "dog ban". They have been enjoying the dog free environment (we tend to all visit at the same time) but of course, have been too chicken to jump into the ring to advocate for themselves. BIL has a bum knee and practically climbs up on the counters to keep the dogs from injuring it. Backing off on this also means that we will have to fight the battle for every visit. I know my MIL and this means the door has been cracked for allowing ALL of the dogs back. We will not budge on the second (biting) dog. It goes beyond the single bite. The dog's skittery and fearful demeanor makes dh too nervous to even discuss it and I trust his judgment. The DRAMA that surrounds this issue every_single_time is not only tiring but is damaging to our relationships with each other But that is a topic for a different forum.....

The closing comment from MIL during the last round was "We will never EVER discuss this again, their will never EVER be a dog here when you visit." I suppose it always has to be something, eh?

[Ruthie's momma]

Having lived with 2 Border Collies (as well as a Blue Heeler/Lab mix), I can say that BCs are not any more aggressive than the average dog. Mine have always been docile and very affectionate. Any breed of dog can be aggressive if not properly socialized/trained.

BCs are super intelligent dogs and therefore need a lot of mental stimulation. If they do not receive enough stimulation they can become out of sorts.... This is why so many "smart" dogs end up in specific breed rescues. I think that too many people purchase or adopt dogs without considering the fact that these dogs need proper attention (but, that is for a different discussion).

IMHO, an ill trained dog is more annoying than anything else. That being said, I don't allow my DD around any dog(s), except for our own, unsupervised. I would not knowlingly let my DD around any dog that has a history of biting.

[ErinYay]

If it's at all possible, could you possibly talk them into doing group lessons (positive reinforcement/clicker only) with the most wild dog and the whole family? This will teach the whole family, including your DD, how to train and work on ALL the dogs, give your DD a lot of self-confidence around the dogs, and help get a lot of the issues (jumping is a BIG one, and I always came down hard on my students about allowing it; all it takes is one jump on a kid who falls, hits her head just right, and it's no longer fun, it's a tragedy.)

Some of the big-box stores offer reasonably priced, ostensibly R+ classes, though almost every area has local training clubs where the classes can be even less expensive.

Herding dogs, rescues, and def rescued herding dogs need a lot of mental stimulation and structure to be nice, safe dogs, and the humans need to be able to communicate with the dogs effectively.

Good luck!

[Pepper44]

We adopted a border collie/ "Lassie" collie mix from the shelter as a tiny puppy a few years ago. He was the most intelligent, sweet dog we have ever had. Unfortunately he was so incredibly intense and high energy. He never stopped moving, he was constantly evaluating everyone in the house for their location and behavior, there was never one second of peace.

We took him to training classes and worked so hard on it. He got the commands instantly! But he just wasn't meant to be a family dog in the suburbs, we couldn't keep him stimulated and happy here. We gave him to a family who runs a goat farm and goes to agility trials with their dogs, and now he's so happy! (We should have done some research before adopting in the first place, but at least our doggy had a happy ending!)

I think border collies are a specifically bred farm breed, they are great at what they are bred to do...and that doesn't include sitting quietly in a house all day. A 45 minute intense walk can't even satisfy their needs! So I'm sure your in-laws' dogs are full of pent up energy. That would be so overwhelming!

One thing you can do when you go over to their house is to completely ignore the dogs. I know, easier said than done.

When you walk in the door don't make eye contact with the dogs, pretend they aren't there.

If/when they jump on you, turn your back and don't say or do anything. Stand in front of your DD and turn your back so they can't knock her over. The worst that will happen is that you will get scratches if their nails aren't trimmed well, which in all honesty might make your in-laws take notice and feel bad.

When they mouth you or pull on your clothes also don't make eye contact, just walk away and move your hands out of their reach. Only pet them or look at them when (if ever) they are calm and sitting nicely.

This will show the dogs that they can't dominate you! When you give them attention, even negative, for jumping on you then they like it and will want to keep doing it.

[Ola_]

One of the things that may be worth trying for the jumping issue is getting into the dog's space. Herding breeds in general are quite sensitive to space because they use it to move their herd around without needing to touch them. When you see the dog preparing to jump try moving into its space - small step forward, leaning your upper body forward over the dog, or even putting your hands in front of you can work. Our human reaction is normally to back away which has the opposite effect, giving the dog more room to jump. It may be worth a try.

[rhiOrion]

I'm at work, so I haven't gotten to read all the replies... sorry if I am just restating what's already been said.

I grew up with a border collie who was a great dog. She loved her people so much, especially my dad (she did bite him one time, but that really *was* my dad's fault... she was starting to go deaf, and my dad snuck up on her while she was asleep... up until that point she was aware enough to know he was coming, but this time she didn't hear him and it scared her).

She never really jumped on people unless invited and didn't lick faces (she'd stick out her tongue and touch your nose with the tip of it... it was so adorable).

That said... we never let her near playing children. If a child was sitting on the couch being calm or something, we'd let her sit in the room, because she just ignored them. But children moving and playing set her deeeep into herding mode. She'd bite ankles as if they were sheep. And then sometimes she'd just get tired of kids and snap at them. We didn't have any small kids in our family, and very few friends with small kids, so it wasn't much of an issue. She never bit "her" kids (my sister and me).

So, as much as I *love* border collies, I do not, as a breed, trust them around kids. I might make exceptions for certain border collies if I knew them well, but not as a general rule.

Luckily our border collie could be entertained by a flashlight for HOURS... it didn't even have to be on. So we'd generally set a flashlight in a corner somewhere if there were kids coming over, and she'd stare at the flashlight and occasionally yip at it.

[kittywitty]

Originally Posted by betsyj

It is clear you don't like dogs and that is fine. But, your IL's clearly DO like dogs and the company they offer. I must gently say it seems rather unfair of you to think they should deny themselves this companionship because you don't like them.

If I were in your shoes I would consider this my cross to bear. I would insist the shy dog who bit be crated or shut in a room while my kid was visiting for everyone's safety. But, I would also stay at a hotel rather then insist someone kennel their dogs.

Originally Posted by Ola_

First, let me say that dogs don't like being hugged - many will tolerate it, but not all. And a dog that is shy should definitely not be treated this way. I assume you've taught your daughter not to behave that way around dogs since she is around them frequently?

We have a lab/border collie mix. They are good dogs, but without extensive training and firm leaders, they can be hyper and jumpy. Unless they were abused, they aren't usually too rough. But they are herding dogs. They dont mean to be "rough", they are actually exceedingly smart and loving and loyal. It's all in training and treatment, though. And honestly, it's your in-laws pets and their choice. As a kid, I was around different pets a lot and my grandma had a dog that bit a lot of people. I was there almost every day. We were taught to not be afraid of the dog and ignore it and to be dominant if it started being mean. You glare, get tall, use a deep voice. We weren't taught to be afraid or to have it locked up. It only ever bit me once when it was 18 years old and totally senile and could barely move.

IME, it is normal for big dogs (and little ones! they are worse IME) to jump all over people. Unless they are well trained. Some people don't mind it, some do. I don't let my dog jump, but she does get very protective of my kids and herds them and other kids at the park.

I don't see an untrained border collie as being dangerous. A rescued one that may have been abused may cause problems, just like any other dog, ever, that has been abused. You need to be responsible for teaching your children not to hug, ride, or even get near the dog if you are worried about it. I had a border collie as a kid and with my current dog, I trust her around kids. However, if the kid is terrified of dogs and not used to big dogs, I keep her put up because she's louder and more hyper than my cats and it freaks dog-scared kids out.

Originally Posted by Ola_

One of the things that may be worth trying for the jumping issue is getting into the dog's space. Herding breeds in general are quite sensitive to space because they use it to move their herd around without needing to touch them. When you see the dog preparing to jump try moving into its space - small step forward, leaning your upper body forward over the dog, or even putting your hands in front of you can work. Our human reaction is normally to back away which has the opposite effect, giving the dog more room to jump. It may be worth a try.

Good suggestion. My dog responds best with my hands on hips, me leaning forward slightly and looking big. Instant submission.