"But why do you get to....?"

[mild_adventurer]

An interesting new phenomenon has developed in my darling step-daughter (age 12).

I suspect it's a totally normal development considering her age and the fact that she no longer considers herself a child in any way.

Nonetheless, I've yet to figure out how to respond.

At least twice a day, she let's us know that she doesn't think it's fair that her father and I sometimes do things or have privileges that don't extend to her or the other children. Her way of letting us know this is by staring one of us down and saying (in quite an unkind way), "Well, how come YOU get to [insert action or privilege here]?"

Some recent "how comes":

"Why do YOU get to stay up late when *I* have to go to bed at 9:30?"

"Why do YOU get a bigger piece of cake than me?"

"Why do YOU get the use the new computer when I have to use the old one in the playroom?"

"Why do YOU get a new winter jacket when I have to wear my one from last year?"

"Why do YOU get to go out to dinner with your friends when you say you can't afford to send me to an extra horse lesson every month?"

"Why do YOU get to eat on the couch in the living room?"

I could go on and on, but I think you get the gist.

So, of course we have good reasons for all of the decisions we make and we're very good at being trasnparent with the kids about our decisions when we can. We do a lot of good communicating in our home and there are very few secrets. We're always willing to engage the kids in a respectful debate and talk to them honestly about why we live the way we live and why we make the choices we make.

DH and I are stumped on this new thing with DSD though. First of all, she knows the answers to these questions. It's clear that she's asking them simply to assert herself as another "grown-up" in the household. Secondly, she's pretty disrespectful in her tone of voice and mannerisms when she gets into "but why do you" mode. She's sarcastic and, frankly, pretty mean about it. There's a lot of eye-rolling and stomping around. (Normal 12 year old behavior, I know.)

What we've been doing is to simply answer her question in a very factual, flat-affect way and ignore all the behavioral stuff that goes along with. But it's been going on for a while now, and DH is starting to get pretty irritated with the fact that she seems to have what he calls "an entitlement complex" about her place in the family and we're both really struggling with having one of our children talk to us in such a disrespectful manner.

How would you handle this and does anyone else with pre-teens find themselves dealing with this sort of thing?

As an ancillary question: I know that pre-teens and teens sometimes try on a bit of a disrespectful, snarky, sarcastic demeanor in general. We're starting to see this in our 10 year olds too. Do you ignore it? Do you tell them it's not appropriate to relate to people that way? Are there consequences if the kid can't figure out a way to speak respectfully to his/her family? How do you nip it in the bud?

[Oriole]

Dunno.
We had some tough times. Lots of patience, sometimes discussing the questions, sometimes cutting straight to "that tone is not appropriate. If you'd like to discuss something, you will need to find a better way". The end.

There is no magic bullet that I know of, just going with your instincts is the thing to do. I know sometimes DSD asks those kinds of questions, although, it's more often peer related "why does Jenny's mom allow her to dye her hair?". On the rare occasions it involved adults, she is simply reminded that her little sister has fewer options that she does, and if she understands why an 8 y.o. might have fewer choices than a 16 y.o., then she can understand why an adult sometimes will have more options than a sixteen year old. I think she genuinely questions it, and it genuinely reminds her a different perspective.

Just taking it one day at a time. Hang in there.

[PoppyMama]

I have a twelve year old girl too. We should have a protection program for this stage...maybe a giant margarita megaplex to hang out in for the next 6 or so years I've gotten to the point where I'll just raise an eyebrow at the more outlandish or oft repeated questions/comments and move on in a pleasant way.

[34me]

My dd will be 16 in January. I don't know what happened but just recently I've not only grown a brain (in her eyes) but I really, really enjoy my kid again....

You'll get through it....

[MusicianDad]

If you want honesty...

There are some of those things in there I don't even understand.

Why do you get a bigger piece of cake? To eat in the living room? Use the new computer?

I mean, at least two of those seem to be rules for the sake of being rules with no real reason for them. If I were twelve it would honestly seem to me like you and DH were flaunting your adulthood and power with them.

In this case DH and I would look at the situation before jumping to any conclusions about how DD is behaving and make sure that the rules really do make sense before trying to argue in favour of them in anyway.

[mild_adventurer]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

If you want honesty...

There are some of those things in there I don't even understand.

Why do you get a bigger piece of cake? To eat in the living room? Use the new computer?

I mean, at least two of those seem to be rules for the sake of being rules with no real reason for them. If I were twelve it would honestly seem to me like you and DH were flaunting your adulthood and power with them.

In this case DH and I would look at the situation before jumping to any conclusions about how DD is behaving and make sure that the rules really do make sense before trying to argue in favour of them in anyway.

First of all: GO YANKEES!

I understand your questions and I appreciate the honesty. DH and I talk a lot about making sure that our household rules/decisions make sense for our family and truly have substance behind them, as opposed to having rules just for the sake of having rules.

As for the cake, DH weighs twice as much as DSD, had been rock climbing all day, it was his birthday cake, AND he was eating it after she was supposed to be in bed but came downstairs one more time to get something out of her backpack and happened to see him cutting himself a slice. When we all have dinner/dessert together, we either allow everyone to choose their own portions (within reason) or we give everyone the same amount.

The eating on the couch thing is across the board for all the kids. We experiment from time to time with lifting that rule, but the kids (all 4 of them) always regress back into leaving dirty dishes in the living room, leaving wrappers tucked in couch cushions, and I inevitably end up scrubbing apple cider, ground in chedder cheese, or some other equally as insidious food product out of my upholstery. The revocation of the privilege of eating on the couch is a direct consequence of it having been abused.

As for the computer, we bought the new computer because both DH and I regularly run resource-heavy programs, like CAD, SolidWorks, etc. The older computer doesn't support these programs as well. If the new computer is not being used, the children are more than welcome to use it. If, however, DH or I have to get work done or if we're ALREADY on the computer when one of the kids decides they want on, we do ask them to use the older computer in the playroom. Which, by the way, is perfectly suited to what they generally do with a computer which is to surf the internet or do homework in Word.

All of these things have been respectfully explained to all the children multiple times. However, I know that our 12-year old DOES see these rules as us simply "flaunting your adulthood and power." That is her perception, whether it is accurate or not.

I suppose the early teen years are a time when kids tend to feel pretty powerless and that they don't have the kinds of choices they feel entitled to. I get that. I think we've worked pretty hard to allow our children an enormous amount of freedom (more than many of their peers, actually). For example, we just purchased bus passes for the three oldest kids and taught them how to use the bus system (several family field trips on buses! ) so that they could feel more free to do the kinds of activities we can't always drive them around to. Also, just to explore! We live in a beautiful place that is always brimming with interesting things to do and places to explore. Many of our kids' peers have parents who would be horrified to learn that our two 10 year olds and our 12 year old are out taking the bus to explore without parental supervision.

In any case, that's bit off topic, but my point is, we DO allow the kids many freedoms, we DO make sure they have lots of choices, and we really don't have a lot of restrictive rules.

Maybe we just need to figure out a way to be more transparent about that fact?

[Ruthla]

I'd suggest sitting down and discussing the "ongoing" rules clearly, with your reasons, at a calm moment. With things like why she's not allowed to eat in the living room you can explain that she's abused the priviledge. Explain the computer rules and the reasons for it.

Then, the next time she asks about eating on the couch, you can answer "we've already discussed this" or "because we're adults" or "because we don't make messes." When she asks about the computer, tell her "because we have work do to that we can't do on the other computer." The birthday cake thing I would have answered with "because Daddy's the birthday boy."

I'm not exactly sure WHY she has a 9:30 bedtime either. None of my kids had parent-imposed bedtimes after age 10 or so- they needed to get themselves to bed early enough to get up on time the next day without being grumpy. Has she shown the inability to get enough sleep when left to her own devices? Does she have to get up for school earlier than either of you needs to get up for work? Does she truly need more sleep than either of you? This one I really think you need to put more thought into and discuss with her. If you have valid reasons for the 9:30 bedtime, explain them to her- she's less likely to balk at the rule when she understands why it's there. But if there's no good reason for it, be prepared to make changes.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Oriole

Dunno.
We had some tough times. Lots of patience, sometimes discussing the questions, sometimes cutting straight to "that tone is not appropriate. If you'd like to discuss something, you will need to find a better way". The end.

I try, very hard, to be reasonable...and sometimes my kids (my 10 year old DD in particular) is just not. She can get snarky, etc. Last night we had an incident and I suggested she calm down so we could discuss it or for her to go to her room to calm down - and she actually said "why don't you go to your room?" Umm...because I am not stomping on the floor and distrubing the whole houseold ? Sigh.

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

If you want honesty...

There are some of those things in there I don't even understand.

Why do you get a bigger piece of cake? To eat in the living room? Use the new computer?

I mean, at least two of those seem to be rules for the sake of being rules with no real reason for them. If I were twelve it would honestly seem to me like you and DH were flaunting your adulthood and power with them.

In this case DH and I would look at the situation before jumping to any conclusions about how DD is behaving and make sure that the rules really do make sense before trying to argue in favour of them in anyway.

It is possible you have reasons I don't know about for some of the rules - but some do seem a little "we get it because we are adults - and you are not". I think children and teens can smell unfairness a mile away. Literally. I am not suprised she is calling you on it if this is how it feels to her.

Some of the rules seems a little juvenile. I can see most of them applying to a 4 -7yr old, for example, but not a 12 yr old. She is going to feel like you are trying to keep her a child. I think adolescents need to feel trusted - and she is not going to feel your trust her if she cannot eat in the living room, use the new computer, etc.

Why not start with one thing - such as eating in the living room or using the computer? - and take it from there? She will probably respond very positively! I imagine she will goof up on occasion (spill her juice on the floor - or whatever) but we all do that and we clean it up. Adolescence is a great to to experiment with different rules - such as different bedtimes - it makes them feel grownup and that you trust them - but it also shows them the consequences of their actions.

Kathy

edited to add: I read your new post after writing the above. Things are a little clearer now. I still think sitting down with her and discussing where there might be wriggle room could be a good idea. It will help her feel that her feeling and desires are respected. Actions speak louder than words - and even though you have good reasons - she still does not get to sit on the couch and eat or use the new computer, yk? If there is no wriggle room in some areas - and you have explained yourself thoroughtly - I think it is perfectly legitimate to say the discussion, for now, is closed.

[alegna]

I had the same questions about the rules posted above, BUT you seem to have excellent reasons which have been expressed to her.

The tact *I* would take at this point would be to find the things she gets that the grown-ups don't...

"Why do YOU get horse lessons when I don't?"
"Why do YOU get to go play while I do the dishes?"
"Why do YOU get priority on the computer for homework?"
or whatever you can find

To demonstrate that the "rules" have reasons and everything is NOT equal, though it is as fair as possible.

-Angela

[kathymuggle]

One more thought - I try very hard to say "yes" to things.

I am not afraid of the "no" word - but I think it is more likely to respected and causes less issues if used sparingly.

Look for the compromise or the "yes".

DD: I want to use the new computer

mother: cool! I need to run xyz today and Dad might want to run abc when he gets home from work....let's see if we can figure out a scheduel

That sort of thing

[mild_adventurer]

I like kathymuggle's suggestion about trying to find ways to say "yes" more often. I think as parents, sometimes we think we're saying "yes" enough when really we're not.

I'm going to talk to DH about that tonight and see if we can't be a bit more cognisant of how often we're saying "no."

We actually had a moritorium on "gentle reminders" for a whole week a while back and it worked wonders for our family. DH and I found that we had been issuing "gentle reminders" about EVERYTHING. "DS, please chew with your mouth closed." "DD1, please wipe up the crumbs after you use the toaster." "DD2, don't forget to put your laundry in the hamper." "DD3, please pick up your wet towel after you take a shower." We started feeling really naggy and decided to just STOP. We stopped for an entire week. No reminders, no requests that weren't aboslutely necessary for safety or kindness. We told the kids that we recognized that we'd been nagging a lot lately and that we were going to do an experiment and STOP completely for a whole week. They almost fainted! All four of them! Anyway, we followed through and didn't nag for a whole week. And you know what? The kids totally rose to the occassion. They started wiping up their crumbs and picking up their towels and chewing with their mouths closed without having to be told. Amazing!

I wonder if we can do something similar with the "nos." I'm not sure I would actually tell the kids that we're going to stop saying no (that might cause mutiny!), but we could do an experiment where we try to say "yes" more than we have been. "Yes, you can have a bigger piece of cake." or "Yes, you can use this computer. I'm just reading my email and I'll go ahead and do it in the other room." Or something to that effect. See how it feels.

Ruthla, I hear you re: the bedtimes. DH and I revisit this one pretty frequently, too. Here's the bottom line: we both have full-time jobs. We have 4 kids. Our evenings are devoted to family time: we always eat dinner together, help the kids with their homework, play board games, etc. By 9:30, we're ready to be kid-free. We need adult time. We want to be able to watch our shows, maybe do a few little chores, play in the kitchen or the workshop together, etc. We need those last couple of hours of the evening to reconnect as a couple and keep our relationship strong. The 9:30 bedtime is really only a "bedROOM time." The kids don't have to go to sleep. They don't even have to be in bed. They can read, they can watch a video on the portable DVD player, they can do art projects (our 8 year old has produced some incredible art projects during bedroom time).

Also, (and I know there are many who will disagree with me on this one), I actually do think that the kids need more sleep than we do. Studies show that kids up to the age of 12 need between 9 and 10 hours of sleep a night. And anyone who's ever had a teenager knows how much they can sleep! Everyone is up at 6:00 on school mornings, so if they actually fall asleep at 10, that's 8 hours. And I know that there's not a single one of my kids who falls asleep at 10. Maybe the 8 year old after a really long day.

In any case, thanks for all the good suggestions. Like I said in my pp, I think we offer all of our kids many freedoms their peers don't get and to be honest, it kind of rubs me the wrong way when one of them throws my generosity back in my face for suggesting that I'm a jerk because I won't get off the computer she wants to use.

[Adele_Mommy]

I had some questions after reading the first post too, but you have done an admirable job of explaining. I am also impressed about how you totally didn't get defensive. Now I think you are extremely reasonable in both your rules and your communication with your kids. So, I think it is a kid thing. My dd also frequently asks the same thing when she just wants to get in an argument. Here are my suggestions for dealing with it:

1. Ignore the sarcasm and attitude entirely unless it is so over the top that you cannot ignore it, in which case ignore the actual question and say something about how you will speak to her when she can be less rude.
2. If this is the first time she has asked this particular question, explain the reasoning calmly just like you did to us, even if you think she probably already knows the answer.
3. If this is not the first time, simply say "I have already answered that question"
4. If she persists, turn it back on her. Say something like, "That is a good question. Why do you think we eat on the couch, but don't allow you to?" Your next steps will depend on how she responds. If she says something like, "Because I've left my dishes there before, but I won't do that anymore." then maybe you could work out some sort of compromise or trial run or something. If she says something silly like "Because you are the meanest parents ever." my response would be to make a joke of it: "That's right! You've discovered my evil plan!" She may say something like, "Because I left my plate in the living room one time in 2006". I'm not sure how I'd respond to that!

This is very annoying and apparently I have several more years of it (my dd is 9), but using a combination of the above, my dd does not do this all the time anymore, is not as persistant and repetitious when she does ask that kind of question, and I do not find her doing it nearly so unpleasant when I concentrate on responding as above and not getting irritated.

Good luck!

[chiromamma]

Originally Posted by alegna

I had the same questions about the rules posted above, BUT you seem to have excellent reasons which have been expressed to her.

The tact *I* would take at this point would be to find the things she gets that the grown-ups don't...

"Why do YOU get horse lessons when I don't?"
"Why do YOU get to go play while I do the dishes?"
"Why do YOU get priority on the computer for homework?"
or whatever you can find

I don't see how that would be helpful. In my house, it would totally shut down communication.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by chiromamma

I don't see how that would be helpful. In my house, it would totally shut down communication.

That sort of approach has always worked well for me- a more playful approach. It's not done with a mean undertone, but more reflecting back the absurdity of the situation.

-Angela

[Oriole]

Originally Posted by chiromamma

I don't see how that would be helpful. In my house, it would totally shut down communication.

I think the tone matters, and giving a realistic perspective matters. Kids truly don't GET IT sometimes, but if you were to point out that they enjoy things that adults don't get to, that's something worth thinking of, imho.

[littleteapot]

Turn it around: she wants more privileges and rights? Okay, so what CAN she have? More chores + good behavior + responsibilities = "adult" rewards that the three of you talk about together.
What kinds of rights does she want? It doesn't just boil down to, "the same as you" there's probably some really 'big' specifics for her. So, write them on paper and put them in three piles:

"Definitely no" (dangerous, scary, illegal, etc)

"No, but we can probably find a similar alternative"

"We can probably compromise"

(add, subtract or change pile names as needed, but you get the gist).

Look realistically at the things she's asking for. Think hard on each one: discuss it with each other, and her. Are any of them things you COULD lift for her because she's getting old enough to prove herself?
She doesn't want to feel like 'a little kid' anymore, and she shouldn't: she's 12! She probably doesn't need to eat at their table anymore, but isn't ready for a glass of wine either. There is an in-between ground of introducing her to new privileges without crossing the line.