what would be a better way to have handled this(explosive and defiant 5yo)

[meg-momto2]

i know i did not handle this well. i just read "The Explosive Child" but i'm having trouble applying their plan to situations like this. if anyone has any other books recommendations i'm open to them.

DS(5.5yo) walked up the fridge. DD(2yo) was looking around in it already and became defensive and blocked him. she put her hands out to keep him away. DS took this as pushing. they tripped over each other and fell to the ground. DS kicked DD in the stomach/chest hard enough that she fell backwards. i told DS to go to his room while i checked on DD(she's fine just startled). DS being his normal defiant self gets up in my face and screams "NO" while trying to intimated me with scowls. after several minutes of me asking him to go to his room i tell him i will be removing his favorite toy and t.v. privileges as a consequence. rage ensues and toys are being thrown at me. i physically pick up DS(aggravates rage even more because of tactile sensory issues) a gently place him on his bed and walk out. his room is now trashed and he's sobbing on his bed.

i know he's actions are very impulsive and he can't control them. how do i discipline something that he didn't mean to do but still caused harm?

[crunchyintexas]

Instead of sending him to room, how would he respond to a hug and a "I know this was an accident, can we talk about it?" Or if he doesn't do hugs, a disarming smile and the same question while you hug your daughter.

I'm thinking that he feels threatened by being sent to his room, feels maybe like you're pushing him away and he doesn't know how to express that so he gets defensive.

I had a kid or two like that during my years teaching Kinder--no kind of punitive anything would do anything but cause more problems, but if I backed off the situation would usually work its way to resolution (of course the other kid involved would be 5yo, too, instead of a toddler, which I know makes a difference, esp. if the other kid wasn't shy).

[mamazee]

This is why I don't do time outs. It causes things to escalate. If I tried to put my dd in her room, she'd thrash around, throw things, and she wouldn't actually stay in there unless I had a way to lock the door from the outside or something. Plus she'd just flip out and throw stuff around her room, and she's actually keeping her room neat now. I don't want to do anything that might mess up how good she is at keeping her room clean.

I'd talk to him about how much bigger he is than her, like how he's as much bigger than her as a 10-year-old is to him. That he's stronger than he thinks he is.

It could be that punishing him makes him more angry at her, because he might see her as the cause of his punishment instead of his own behavior as the cause ("She always gets me in trouble!") and might actually make his behavior with her worse.

[aspenleaves]

Hmmm, the part I don't like is that after your dd was down he kicked her in the chest. Like the whole tumbling over each other to get what they want is totally okay (even if there was pushing), but the deliberate kick to the other child is not okay. My DD when she was 4.5 did know that this was wrong and was not okay. Yes, I know that impulse control is the issue.

After he screamed no in my face I would not have asked him to go to his room. I would tell him to. If he did not listen I would physically bring him there and set him down. For my DD leaving the door to the room open was an important part for me to do (she hated me to close the door). We actually tried all the variations, being alone in the room or me staying, closing the door or keeping it open, etc... Basically I would say something like this. You are not allowed to hurt your sister and I don't like to be screamed at. You need to listen, and when you are ready to be respectful and in control of your body you may come out. I'm not huge on apologies but maybe oone to your dd since there was a physical attack. At the very least I would have him ask her if she is okay.

I'm sure I am not the best advisor in this situation. I have struggled a lot with issues like this. Over time and with consistancy my DD is learning that she cannot scream at me, she needs to be respectful, she needs to be in control of her body, etc...

I think the other posters advice is good too. I try and use the 'do you need a hug' tactic as well, but sometimes I just need her to NOT hit me or to NOT call me a name. I can't always be the patient one really.

[meg-momto2]

thanks ladies. we normally try to talk things out but like aspenleaves said, the kick to the chest pushed it overboard. i try not to punish him for things like this because it is so impulsive in nature but he needs to understand there are consequences. we don't do time outs but i do have him go to his room to "cool off". the idea is that he'll come out calm and ready to talk to me.

when he did come out of his room he was sad and immediately hugged and apologized to me. we talked a bit about how much he could have hurt someone with what he did. i keep trying to tell him that going to his room is not a bad thing. it should be his safe place until he's ready to calm down. maybe i'll ask him what he thinks he should do when he's upset.

[elizawill]

my ds is about the same age as your son. he also can be out of control (it used to be very bad when he was younger), and we've dealt with this since he was about 9 months old. i can honestly say he is A LOT better now, but we will still have tough times every so often.

when my ds gets out of control where he becomes physical, the first thing he needs from me is help calming down. this is not to say he doesn't have consequences (believe me he does) - but in the heat of the momemt, he literally cannot control his own temper & needs help regaining control of his emotions. if i send him away from me, that is not helpful for my son. he needs me to be there and help him through it. this is more difficult for you i imagine, as you still have a toddler though.

i usually remain calm, understanding & unresponsive. i'm calm in my tone of voice and body language; i'm understanding in the sense that i acknowledge he's very upset; and i'm unresponsive in the sense that i don't retaliate his anger with my own anger. my ds usually needs me to hold him tight and i don't talk to him. i do not use the time we have calming down to discuss what just happened at all (it only escalates his anger). it usually takes a few minutes for him to regain control & calm down. once we can talk in a normal tone of voice is when i will discuss what happened. i always start the conversation asking, "tell me about what happened from your point of view". we would discuss how else the situation could have been handled. we discuss how his behavior made the other person/people feel, etc.

if my son destroys his room in anger, he is responsible for cleaning it back up. if he refuses, then i will clean it for him, but everything he threw will be taken from his room and put away for a while. if he hurts another child, i ask him to make that situation right & we'll discuss ways he can do that. i don't force apologies - but he always does say he's sorry. depending on the circumstance, i have/will ground him from something (each family is different, but i personally don't mind logical consequences at all)....but sometimes going through the situation and talking about it was all he really needed. it just depends.

lastly, i know your daughter is only 2, but imo, your son should know that you recognize your dd's behavior wasn't nice to him. she's only a toddler of course, but your 5 year old should know that you understand dd shouldn't have body blocked him from looking in the fridge. certainly there is enough room that they both could have looked at the same time. in his eyes, your dd was not being kind, and yet, he was the only one being sent away from you, ykwim? looking at it from his POV makes it easier to understand (not condone of course - but understand).

[Twocoolboys]

Originally Posted by elizawill

lastly, i know your daughter is only 2, but imo, your son should know that you recognize your dd's behavior wasn't nice to him. she's only a toddler of course, but your 5 year old should know that you understand dd shouldn't have body blocked him from looking in the fridge. certainly there is enough room that they both could have looked at the same time. in his eyes, your dd was not being kind, and yet, he was the only one being sent away from you, ykwim? looking at it from his POV makes it easier to understand (not condone of course - but understand).

I was thinking the same thing. He was the only one that was in trouble, but from what I read, your dd actually started the fight. I'd guess that he was feeling like things were pretty unfair. I'm not saying what he did was right, but it sounds like he was not the only one at fault.

I tell my 5 year old all the time that it is normal for him to get mad when he gets hurt. Anger is the first reaction. But, he needs to work on not lashing out physically when he's angry. He's come a long way. When his 20 month old brother hits him with something, I try to be right there and verbally coach my 5 year old on what to do. I usually say something like "I know you're angry, but you can't hit. Walk away." I have to be very direct with him. It usually works. Sometimes I don't see what's happened, but we've been at this for so long that he's getting pretty good about reacting verbally instead of physically. He'll usually yell in anger, but I can live with that.

If something gets to the point where my ds yells at me, I wouldn't keep asking him to go to his room. I'd pick him up and carry hiim. Most likely, I'd put him on the couch until he calmed down.

I'm curious - did you actually see the fight? The time to stop it would have been before it got to that point, when your dd was first aggressive with him. Maybe this isn't typical, but it kind of sounds like you're leaving him to defend himself against an aggressive younger sister and then comforting her and punishing him when he does.

[meg-momto2]

elizawill- i really like how you handle your son. i'm going to draw from your example. my only concern is that i can't touch him when he's upset because of his sensory issues. i haven't had a chance to talk to him about what he would like to happen when he gets upset. i think having him decide what the "cool off" is could empower him.

i do have to admit DD will aggravate DS and i often only respond to DS because his actions are so much more aggressive. lately i've been really trying to treat them as equally as possible when they instigate fights. it's something that i need to work on more. the last few weeks i've been scripting what he needs to tell her when she bothers him. that only works if i can get to them before they get physical.

i did witness everything. i was just a few feet over with my hands full. i couldn't break them up until after DS kicked her. i knew something was going to happen because they always fight over the fridge. as soon as i saw DS approach i asked him to wait just a second so i could help. he disregarded my request and kept moving. he does that a lot. just keeps doing what he's doing unless i physically get in his way. now that i'm thinking about it i really should have put myself between them. i have learned something from this thread. thank you for the examples and suggestions.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by meg-momto2

i do have to admit DD will aggravate DS and i often only respond to DS because his actions are so much more aggressive. lately i've been really trying to treat them as equally as possible when they instigate fights. it's something that i need to work on more. the last few weeks i've been scripting what he needs to tell her when she bothers him. that only works if i can get to them before they get physical.

i totally relate to this, meg. we went through something a little different (but relatable) with my niece. she would purposefully aggravate my ds. because my son was quick to yell or hit - there were a few situations where he got in trouble when he wasn't even the one to blame honestly. they've outgrown this now (my ds took her power away when he stopped reacting).

fortunately now, he knows what triggers his anger and he can detect when he's about to blow-up. we discussed how he "feels" right before he loses control. yelling is the first sign, so my dh & i have worked really hard with him when he wants to yell or has yelled, to come and get us so we can help him. he doesn't need us every time of course now - but in the beginning, he did.

we have discussed ways to handle himself if someone calls him a name, if someone yells at him, if someone won't share, if someone is being mean, or if my ds simply isn't getting his way, etc. role playing has helped a lot with him (when he's calm).

i think talking with your son about what will help him when he's angry is a great idea. my ds used to not want me to touch him (but he does not have sensory issues though) - however, he still liked me to be near. after he was done blowing up - he would collapse in my arms. now, we have gotten it to the point that he gets in my lap and simply calms down there while i hold him tight & saying nothing.

together with your little guy, you 2 will figure it out and what will best help your ds.

it's been a lot of work here, but we've gone from 100% of the time, my son blowing up when he got angry to about 10% now...and each time it is MUCH better than it used to be. and like i said, my ds still has consequences. just because i'm trying to understand my son's behavior doesn't mean i excuse it. but i really believe equipping him to deal with anger in an appropriate way is the most important thing right now. it will serve him his whole life, ykwim?

hugs!

[PikkuMyy]

I'd have to think about the situation to see what I would have done but given your example, I would have removed him immediately after he shouted no at you.

[Cavy]

I don't think you did 'wrong', Megmomto. It was a swine of situation and no easy way forward.

Sending to room doesn't work below the age of about 8yo, ime, they just wail or trash their rooms (or maybe both). Also, in no way do I think DS1 has sensory issues, but he hates to be manhandled; that would have sent him in a rage, too at that age.

From my experience, I would have sat down the 5yo in the kitchen with us while I comforted the 2yo. Then we wait and wait until everyone was completely calm (the waiting itself turns into the tedious 'punishment' that they will try to avoid in future). Then we would talk about how everyone could and should have behaved better. Everyone gets to say their piece. You could tackle the flashpoint issue directly (fridge), see how they want to sort that out in future (but it may not work at all with a 2yo).

After things had calmed (completely or almost completely) To the 5yo I would say things like:
Who do you think became more upset? You or your sister or me?

Who do you think did the worst thing, your sister for pushing or you for pushing her over and then kicking her afterwards?

Would it be okay if your sister pushed you down and kicked you in the stomach? Should I let her do that? Would you like me to tell her off if she did? So do you understand why I'm telling you off now?

And end by hugging (when he's ready) and saying how wouldn't it be best if everyone is nicer to each other.

Nobody gets to leave the kitchen until they both are insisting that they'll try harder to be nicer in future!!

NB: this tactic only works when you only have 2 demanding children. When you get 3 it is very difficult to sit and sort out disputes because inevitably you'll be needed to parent somebody elsewhere in the house.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by meg-momto2

how do i discipline something that he didn't mean to do but still caused harm?

Why would you punish something he didn't mean to do?