Get a marker and put a slash mark on his hand for every minute of time he owes you!

[Amatullah0]

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/a...gist/index.php

REALLY? wow. just wow...


eta: can't read, but still...
etax2: can't spell either...

[joensally]

On his hand, not his forehead.

Not advocating the approach, but it was the hand.

[2lilsweetfoxes]

A good visual for the child, in my opinion.

[ElleTwo]

Originally Posted by Amatullah0

http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/a...gist/index.php

REALLY? wow. just wow...


eta: can't read, but still...
etax2: can't spell either...

This one doesn't fly anywhere near gentle for me, and I question the efficacy as well. If you have an issue with your child, racking up a bunch of tally marks for "punishment to be collected later" seems to be off the mark. I'll go with the the idea that if you advocate punishment, then as with a puppy, for it to be effective it needs to be as immediate as possible. Just another reason why punishment is not found in my parenting toolbox.

And on the issue of marking with ink, my gauge on things like this is "Would I do this to my husband..." and the answer is "Heck no.." so why should I do it to my child. Just seems disrespectful to me.

[One_Girl]

I have noticed that when people focus on the bad behavior and track it they are more likely to only see bad behavior and ignore any good. Using a marker to punish kids later when they are most likely back to good behavior doesn't sound like a gentle or reflective approach at all. I like the suggestion for bringing the kid out to the car though and then returning to shopping when they feel ready to use self-control though.

[loraxc]

my gauge on things like this is "Would I do this to my husband..." and the answer is "Heck no.."

Okay, not to pick on you, but I have never understood this mode of thinking. I would never forcibly put a seat belt on my husband, but I have forcibly insisted my child ride in a car seat. I would never give my husband a time-out, but I give my child a time-out. I would never stand and wait and decline to cross the street till my husband held my hand, but I do this with my child. I would never put my husband in the shopping cart if he ran in the store, but I do this with my child.

Etc., etc. Kids are kids. Grown-ups are grown-ups. A child needs more guidance than an adult.

[Starflower]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Okay, not to pick on you, but I have never understood this mode of thinking. I would never forcibly put a seat belt on my husband, but I have forcibly insisted my child ride in a car seat. I would never give my husband a time-out, but I give my child a time-out. I would never stand and wait and decline to cross the street till my husband held my hand, but I do this with my child. I would never put my husband in the shopping cart if he ran in the store, but I do this with my child.

Etc., etc. Kids are kids. Grown-ups are grown-ups. A child needs more guidance than an adult.

While I agree that kids do need more guidance, I think the PP's point was that this type of "guidance" is disrespectful.

[ElleTwo]

Originally Posted by Starflower

While I agree that kids do need more guidance, I think the PP's point was that this type of "guidance" is disrespectful.

My point being that writing on someone's arm isn't "guidance" it's just a part of being punitive. And the thought pattern isn't so much applicable in the scenarios you suggested since there is a difference in experience between adults and children.

But what it is is a simplistic way of pointing out that people are inclined to exercise power over children in many situations just because they can, particularly where punishment is involved.

[ainh]

I agree that this makes one notice bad behavior. Maybe the other hand could have "good" marks to be cashed in later if you seriously insisted on this method?

[Starflower]

Originally Posted by ElleTwo

My point being that writing on someone's arm isn't "guidance" it's just a part of being punitive. And the thought pattern isn't so much applicable in the scenarios you suggested since there is a difference in experience between adults and children.

But what it is is a simplistic way of pointing out that people are inclined to exercise power over children in many situations just because they can, particularly where punishment is involved.

I did not suggest the scenarios; that was a different poster.

I put "guidance" in quotes because I agree with you that this marking someone's arm is punitive rather than offering guidance. Sorry for not being clear. The marking of the child's arm reminds me of The Scarlet Letter.

[mom22girls]

What if you put a sticker on the arm for every good thing done?



Actually, I think my husband might like that I really DO notice!

[deny_zoo29]

Originally Posted by loraxc

Okay, not to pick on you, but I have never understood this mode of thinking. I would never forcibly put a seat belt on my husband, but I have forcibly insisted my child ride in a car seat. I would never give my husband a time-out, but I give my child a time-out. I would never stand and wait and decline to cross the street till my husband held my hand, but I do this with my child. I would never put my husband in the shopping cart if he ran in the store, but I do this with my child.

Etc., etc. Kids are kids. Grown-ups are grown-ups. A child needs more guidance than an adult.

This is exactly what I thought when I read htis statement...of course I wouldn't do this to my husband, but I wouldn't think my husband would need to be reprimanded/disciplined for his behavior! I do not believe it is right to equate what you do to your child to what you would do to your husband or another adult. Kids do need guidance and discipline. And depending on the age of the child I think the marks on the hand would be a good visual for the child to know how much time they owe back to the parents when they get home. WOuld it work on a 2 or 3 year old...no. But a 6 year old? Sure.

[bronxmom]

First, oh my god that does not seem gentle at all. It seems humiliating, scary and harsh. Not how I'd like to treat my kid.

Second, the point of asking "would I treat my husband this way" is to ask if my husband does something I don't like or that is wrong or forgetful or whatever, do I see myself in a position to punish him? If not, why do we treat kids that way? So, for ex, a pp says "of course I wouldn't do this to my husband, but I wouldn't think my husband would need to be reprimanded/disciplined for his behavior!" Really? I find this hard to believe.

My partner has at various times:
-left his dirty socks, shoes, etc lying around the living room in a heaping mess
-interrupted a conversation I'm having with someone else
-not washed the dishes after I cook even though that's our division of labor in our house
-spoken rudely or meanly to me
-spent too much money when we're on a budget
-left the gas tank empty for me to fill
-not been ready to leave the house when we are LATE and need to get going!
-forgotten something so that we have to go back
-etc, etc, etc

Imagine these or something similar being done by a child. In the majority of the cases, a child doing something like this will be met with either a punishment or a big lecture or something punitive of that sort. Most of the time, I wouldn't dream of reacting that way to my partner. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt (usually) and assume he's tired (like me), had a bad day, didn't notice, just forgot, etc, etc. I'd tell him if I was upset or the impact what he did had on me and I might tell him what I want him to do to make it better. But I wouldn't be mean or punitive (or at least I try not to). And I try not to treat my child meanly or punitively either.

I actually don't think it's that crazy a concept. It's about recognizing that children - while lacking in experience and knowledge and some basic developmental skills that adults have acquired - are still human beings with feelings, motivations, ideas of their own, etc that should be recognized and taken into account.

[Starflower]

Originally Posted by bronxmom

First, oh my god that does not seem gentle at all. It seems humiliating, scary and harsh. Not how I'd like to treat my kid.

Second, the point of asking "would I treat my husband this way" is to ask if my husband does something I don't like or that is wrong or forgetful or whatever, do I see myself in a position to punish him? If not, why do we treat kids that way? So, for ex, a pp says "of course I wouldn't do this to my husband, but I wouldn't think my husband would need to be reprimanded/disciplined for his behavior!" Really? I find this hard to believe.

My partner has at various times:
-left his dirty socks, shoes, etc lying around the living room in a heaping mess
-interrupted a conversation I'm having with someone else
-not washed the dishes after I cook even though that's our division of labor in our house
-spoken rudely or meanly to me
-spent too much money when we're on a budget
-left the gas tank empty for me to fill
-not been ready to leave the house when we are LATE and need to get going!
-forgotten something so that we have to go back
-etc, etc, etc

Imagine these or something similar being done by a child. In the majority of the cases, a child doing something like this will be met with either a punishment or a big lecture or something punitive of that sort. Most of the time, I wouldn't dream of reacting that way to my partner. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt (usually) and assume he's tired (like me), had a bad day, didn't notice, just forgot, etc, etc. I'd tell him if I was upset or the impact what he did had on me and I might tell him what I want him to do to make it better. But I wouldn't be mean or punitive (or at least I try not to). And I try not to treat my child meanly or punitively either.

I actually don't think it's that crazy a concept. It's about recognizing that children - while lacking in experience and knowledge and some basic developmental skills that adults have acquired - are still human beings with feelings, motivations, ideas of their own, etc that should be recognized and taken into account.

[emamum]

my son only has small hands... when i run out of space should i start on other bits of skin?? i dont really want my child walking round the shops looking like a zebra...

[Tjej]

I'm trying to picture it in action - a kid is doing something you don't like and you have to grab their arm and write on them? That sounds to me like it would be a very visible struggle in a public place. I mean, if it is bad enough to warrant a "mark" I'd think the child would be behaving in a way that they wouldn't just come and let you write on them if you felt like it.

Tjej

[flapjack]

Originally Posted by bronxmom

First, oh my god that does not seem gentle at all. It seems humiliating, scary and harsh. Not how I'd like to treat my kid.

Second, the point of asking "would I treat my husband this way" is to ask if my husband does something I don't like or that is wrong or forgetful or whatever, do I see myself in a position to punish him? If not, why do we treat kids that way? So, for ex, a pp says "of course I wouldn't do this to my husband, but I wouldn't think my husband would need to be reprimanded/disciplined for his behavior!" Really? I find this hard to believe.

My partner has at various times:
-left his dirty socks, shoes, etc lying around the living room in a heaping mess
-interrupted a conversation I'm having with someone else
-not washed the dishes after I cook even though that's our division of labor in our house
-spoken rudely or meanly to me
-spent too much money when we're on a budget
-left the gas tank empty for me to fill
-not been ready to leave the house when we are LATE and need to get going!
-forgotten something so that we have to go back
-etc, etc, etc

Imagine these or something similar being done by a child. In the majority of the cases, a child doing something like this will be met with either a punishment or a big lecture or something punitive of that sort. Most of the time, I wouldn't dream of reacting that way to my partner. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt (usually) and assume he's tired (like me), had a bad day, didn't notice, just forgot, etc, etc. I'd tell him if I was upset or the impact what he did had on me and I might tell him what I want him to do to make it better. But I wouldn't be mean or punitive (or at least I try not to). And I try not to treat my child meanly or punitively either.

I actually don't think it's that crazy a concept. It's about recognizing that children - while lacking in experience and knowledge and some basic developmental skills that adults have acquired - are still human beings with feelings, motivations, ideas of their own, etc that should be recognized and taken into account.

The natural consequence for an adult that behaves that way is that he ends up happily divorced and free to run out of gas, be late, and leave the house as messy as he wants- and I know marriages that have ended for less. Given that divorcing your children for persistent sock abuse is Bad Parenting, there are times when alternative consequences can be beneficial to domestic harmony.

[MelW]

Originally Posted by flapjack

The natural consequence for an adult that behaves that way is that he ends up happily divorced and free to run out of gas, be late, and leave the house as messy as he wants- and I know marriages that have ended for less. Given that divorcing your children for persistent sock abuse is Bad Parenting, there are times when alternative consequences can be beneficial to domestic harmony.

(I you flapjack)

[bronxmom]

Originally Posted by flapjack

The natural consequence for an adult that behaves that way is that he ends up happily divorced and free to run out of gas, be late, and leave the house as messy as he wants- and I know marriages that have ended for less. Given that divorcing your children for persistent sock abuse is Bad Parenting, there are times when alternative consequences can be beneficial to domestic harmony.

By this logic, we have very limited options when people we care about do things that inconvenience, hurt or bother us. If they are a kid and we have power over them, then we impose "consequences" and can compel (or try at least) them to do what we want. If they are an adult, then we can divorce them or not be friends with them. This seems like a bad way to live. Obviously people are going to do things that annoy, upset and hurt us without it shaking the basic foundation of love we have for them. Unless we want our relationships torn apart by these things then we need to find ways to communicate our distress, help people understand where we are coming from, ask confidently and without blame for what we need, address the underlying problems that create the tension, and give people ways to make things better. To go back to the example of my partner when he doesn't do dishes, a conversation might start with why it's so upsetting to me; but I'd also listen to what's going on with him that he didn't feel he could do them; then I'd hope we'd brainstorm ways to come up with a plan that can address both our issues - or we'd compromise and one of us would agree to be temporarily put out but we'd know that we're partners and the balance will shift over time. Similarly, when my daughter comes home from school and is not helping us pack up and leave for a trip, I would be upset that she's not helping but I'd listen when she tells me that her 7 hour day at school feels like work, that she can't talk unless she raises her hands, that they have to take stupid tests, etc, etc and she really just needs to sit 15 minutes - I might or might not make her help in the moment but we'd brainstorm ways to deal in the future (for ex., maybe pack the night before or have a 1/2 hour chill out time before leaving).

This way of communicating and living is a goal and I frequently fail to accomplish it, but I don't see why we can't try to have different relationships with all the people in our lives, including kids.

[flapjack]

Originally Posted by bronxmom

This way of communicating and living is a goal and I frequently fail to accomplish it, but I don't see why we can't try to have different relationships with all the people in our lives, including kids.

That's my point exactly, and why I was offended by the comparison of a relationship with a husband and a child. With adults, once we have communicated our distress, we have a very limited number of options; whether it be to accept that this is the best that our partner can give us at the time and so it will have to do, to get what we want, or to walk away or restate our position.

With children, though, we also have the responsibility of guiding them on into adult life able to negotiate adult relationships and comfortably meet reasonable expectations- like sock management and dishes and boring stuff like that. The natural consequence of a child who fails to learn the boring mundane art of real life- like sock management, time management, appropriate behaviour- is that they have difficulty in adult life with relationships, work and employment, and if my kids find themselves in that situation over socks or dishes, I will feel that I have failed them.

Yes, cutting slack is important. I was reading your post and realising that I can't visualise a situation where we try to get in the car and leave on a trip right after school, because taking the time to unwind is something that I've built into our schedule automatically and without need for negotiation, based on my anticipation of my children's needs and memories of my own childhood. Looking back to your list of offences in your previous post, most of that would be dealt with with the equivalent of an irked smiley in my house- for the kids, anyway. I'm reading your posts, though, and wondering who cuts you the slack, and if your needs get filled effectively this way?